135 replies to this topic

[RuthAnn Nicholls]

Joe, as Marvin pointed out, nobody's calling you stupid or uneducated. I believe, if you'll look back at what I've written to you, that I have gone out of my way to affirm you. I'm not certain why you think that on the above points (that the sower is the Son of Man, the good seed are the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the wicked, and the enemy is the Devil) I disagree with you. You keep repeating them as if I've argued against them, which I have not.

Blessings to you! I'm not sure this particular discussion has anywhere else left to go.

Denes

Could we use the children of Israel as a subject of God's election?

God knew before he chose that nation that they would fail him. So he 'closed their ears'. (If I remember correctly).

So in this way, he elected them as the family for his Son's birth. But he knew their reaction to their election. It became a stumbling stone to them. And then Jesus became a big stumbling stone. They felt their salvation was of their heritage and the Law given to them. God seems to affirm their behavior, their reaction but 'closing their ears'.

That's the way I see election.
Right now, anyway.

[Travis Richey]

A very interesting discussion. Thank you all very much for all you have to say. I was raised in the Nazarene church, so my learned doctrine is definitely free choice. I have several friends on the predeistination side of the coin, and have had some interesting discussions. THe other day, I was reading Tozer's The Knowledge of the Holy, and came across this description of the debate:

"Perhaps a homely illustration might help us to understand. An ocean liner leaves New York bound for Liverpool. Its destination has been determined by proper authorities.On board the liner are several scores of passengers. These are not in chains, neither are their activities determined for them by decree. They are completely free to move about as they will. They eat, sleep, play, lounge about on the deck, read, talk, altogether as they please; but all the while the great liner is carrying them steadily onward toward a predetermined port. Both freedom and sovereignty are present here and they do not contradict each other. So it is, I believe, with man’s freedom and the sovereignty of God. The mighty liner of God’s sovereign design keeps its steady course over the sea of history. God moves undisturbed and unhindered toward the fulfillment of those eternal purposes which He purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began. We do not know all that is included in those purposes, but enough has been disclosed to furnish us with a broad outline of things to come and to give us good hope and firm assurance of future well-being. We know that God will fulfill every promise made to the prophets; we know that sinners will some day be cleansed out of the earth; we know that a ransomed company will enter into the joy of God and that the righteous will shine forth in the kingdom of their Father; we know that God’s perfections will yet receive universal acclamation, that all created intelligences will own Jesus Christ Lord to the glory of God the Father, that the present imperfect order will be done away, and a new heaven and a new earth be established forever.Toward all this God is moving with infinite wisdom and perfect precision of action. No one can dissuade Him from His purposes; nothing turn Him aside from His plans. Since He is omniscient, there can be no unforeseen circumstances, no accidents. As He is sovereign, there can be no countermanded orders, no breakdown in authority; and as He is omnipotent, there can be no want of power to achieve His chosen ends. God is sufficient unto Himself for all these things."

[RuthAnn Nicholls]

Just a couple of thoughts about this subject:

First, a physicist's look at it.
"I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined,
and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."
-S.Hawking


Second, does this parable tell us anything about Predestination?
““Again, the Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a man going on a trip. He called together his servants and gave them money to invest for him while he was gone. He gave five bags of gold to one, two bags of gold to another, and one bag of gold to the last—dividing it in proportion to their abilities—and then left on his trip. The servant who received the five bags of gold began immediately to invest the money and soon doubled it. The servant with two bags of gold also went right to work and doubled the money. But the servant who received the one bag of gold dug a hole in the ground and hid the master’s money for safekeeping.
“After a long time their master returned from his trip and called them to give an account of how they had used his money. The servant to whom he had entrusted the five bags of gold said, ‘Sir, you gave me five bags of gold to invest, and I have doubled the amount.’ The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
“Next came the servant who had received the two bags of gold, with the report, ‘Sir, you gave me two bags of gold to invest, and I have doubled the amount.’ The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’
“Then the servant with the one bag of gold came and said, ‘Sir, I know you are a hard man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth and here it is.’
“But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! You think I’m a hard man, do you, harvesting crops I didn’t plant and gathering crops I didn’t cultivate? Well, you should at least have put my money into the bank so I could have some interest. Take the money from this servant and give it to the one with the ten bags of gold. To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who are unfaithful, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’”
(Matthew 25:14–30 NLT)

The man gave to his own servants. They were his. This parable shows the potential of the servants. But the one who was unfaithful with what little he had will be taken away and the useless servant was cast into outer darkness.

I think this shows potential and actual productivity is choice.

[Wade McGarvey]

I grew up in the United Methodist tradition. then in college went to Allegheny Center Alliance Church. Was baptized in "Turnbull's Lake". After college left the UMC and went to a couple of charismatic churches. Now I am part of a "conservative remnant" in the PCUSA.

Armenian or Calvinistic theology? How about Calvi-menian?

I had a guy ask for a buck so he could buy a burger. I gave him a buck. He said "you a Christian?" I said, "Well I do love Jesus." I think I fall to the point of both have scripture to back it up, and neither conflict with the other. So I love Jesus because he chose me, and I love him because I choose to, and there are days I struggle with loving him with my actions to his other kids, and those that don't know him yet.

Glad to hear there is a conservative remnant in the PCUSA.... Odd your not a Calvinist. I'm Alliance but fairly Reformed especially by any Methodist standard. Well good luck with the Cal-menian thing!

[Joel Stoddert]

Glad to hear there is a conservative remnant in the PCUSA.... Odd your not a Calvinist. I'm Alliance but fairly Reformed especially by any Methodist standard. Well good luck with the Cal-menian thing!

Just think--some Armenians are probably Calvinists!

[JayHerrera]

Why do the world's so called best "theologians" and "relgious" people have to put you into one of two categories, Calvanism or Armenianism? Why can you just not be someone's Son or Daughter??? Should we not believe what Christ taught? Matthew 13:36-43. Plain and simple...

[JayHerrera]

It is all Gods Plan. All we need is faith, and believe that God is real the word Christian means believer in God and He is real. I have no doubt or question why should we, everything is Gods plan and Gods world and we are here living out His creation. I'm just letting you know and if I can make a difference in one life gives me satisfaction that I'm apart of Gods team. It's very black and white God made it simple for us and gave us the BIble, I like to call it the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth all we need is faith and belive Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and accept it into you're heart. God best describes how our minds should be open like a child, have faith like a child we can move mountains with faith as small as a mustard seed, therefore we should not worrie about life, or tomorrow, or how this might workout, or what should I do? God said for even the birds don't worrie about food or shelter we our his children and He loves us. Being baptized in faith bring comfort to belivers becoming His children. Life bring stress and hardship with the way we have made it so complex We doubt Him and try on our own. He brings us peace and happyness and will open believers eyes as He has done to me I would like to show and tell everyone I have been to it and through it, raised in a Christian home in southern California on the Central Coast. I was blessed to attend Private Christian schools started when I was 5 and graduated from St. Joseph High and studied the Roman Catholic religion. I was chosen as a child for God and love to talk about it to anyone who has questions feel free to call 805 9048386 I'm looking for a strong Christian team who is motivated, and confident in God and love to share others the Word. I pray for you and the world and for God to bless our familys and friends and enemies, we ask for forgiveness for our sins and thank-you for dieing on the cross so that one day we will be in the Kingdom of Heaven and have eternal life, and rebuke the enemy in Jesus Christ name, AMEN. Good night and God Bless. Time for bed but I can just keep going for Him...:-)

[RuthAnn Nicholls]

Absolutely yes! We can abduce that God has counterfactually predestined every person to freely choose salvation in Christ.

I walk this same line as Karl Barth, William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, Louis de Molina, as well as many others. I find this ecotone in Barth's statements resonates with my complex convictions on these matters:

This is the way I see election. I'll be reading more on Barth...
Thanks.

[Joel Stoddert]

This is the way I see election. I'll be reading more on Barth...
Thanks.

Karth Barth was a brilliant theologian and Bible scholar, but also a leading light of the Neo-Orthodox movement. Neoorthodoxy responded to the liberalism of the day, which tended to deny the miraculous, often the deity of Christ, and downplayed or denied the Bible's authority. But while more conservative than the liberalism it repudiated, neoorthodoxy isn't evangelical. Barth, to give a couple examples, believed that the Bible contains the Word of God, vs. being the written Word of God. That's why if you go to, say, a mainline Presbyterian church, many of which are neoorthodox or liberal, you may hear a Scripture reading introduced with statements like, "Listen now for the word of God". Barth also separated the realms of faith and fact, unlike traditional Christian thought, which sees no need to do so. Dr. Barth explained his view using the resurrection of Christ as an example. He said he most definitely believed that Christ physically rose from the dead. But, on the other hand, if he heard about an archeological trip to the Holy Land to investigate whether or not Jesus was still buried in the tomb attributed to him, he'd want to go. He didn't see this as contradictory, since his belief in Jesus' resurrection was a matter of faith, whether it happened in history or not. Barth may definitely be read with profit, especially his commentary on Romans and his life's work, Church Dogmatics, but keep in mind what he believed.

[elizabethcog]

[quote name='JayHerrera' timestamp='1317895042' post='10011']
It is all Gods Plan. All we need is faith, and believe that God is real the word Christian means believer in God and He is real. I have no doubt or question why should we, everything is Gods plan and Gods world and we are here living out His creation. I'm just letting you know and if I can make a difference in one life gives me satisfaction that I'm apart of Gods team. It's very black and white God made it simple for us and gave us the BIble, I like to call it the Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth all we need is faith and belive Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, and accept it into you're heart. God best describes how our minds should be open like a child, have faith like a child we can move mountains with faith as small as a mustard seed, therefore we should not worrie about life, or tomorrow, or how this might workout, or what should I do? God said for even the birds don't worrie about food or shelter we our his children and He loves us. Being baptized in faith bring comfort to belivers becoming His children. Life bring stress and hardship with the way we have made it so complex We doubt Him and try on our own. He brings us peace and happyness and will open believers eyes as He has done to me I would like to show and tell everyone I have been to it and through it, raised in a Christian home in southern California on the Central Coast. I was blessed to attend Private Christian schools started when I was 5 and graduated from St. Joseph High and studied the Roman Catholic religion. I was chosen as a child for God and love to talk about it to anyone who has questions feel free to call 805 9048386 I'm looking for a strong Christian team who is motivated, and confident in God and love to share others the Word. I pray for you and the world and for God to bless our familys and friends and enemies, we ask for forgiveness for our sins and thank-you for dieing on the cross so that one day we will be in the Kingdom of Heaven and have eternal life, and rebuke the enemy in Jesus Christ name, AMEN. Good night and God Bless. Time for bed but I can just keep going for Him...:-)
[/quote

[elizabethcog]

Amen! very well said=)

[Laurie Collett]

Fascinating thread! In my opinion, we do have free will because otherwise we would be robots or dolls, not capable of fellowship with God, which is the purpose for which He created us. But God knows everything, and is not bound by time, so He knows, knew and will know all things past, present and future. Therefore, He knew in eternity past whether each of us would accept or reject His Son at some point in the future. This in no way affects our free will.

The analogy I use with my students is that I know some things about my husband very well, including His love for licorice and His revulsion for sushi. So I know that under most conditions (not sick, not starving, in his right mind, etc.) if offered a choice between licorice and sushi he will choose licorice. I am not in any way affecting his decision to choose and therefore not in any way interfering with his free will to choose. This is an imperfect example because my knowledge of my husband is imperfect, whereas God's knowledge of each of us is perfect and complete.

Laurie Collett, Saved by Grace
http://savedbygraceb...y.blogspot.com/

[RuthAnn Nicholls]

Karth Barth was a brilliant theologian and Bible scholar, but also a leading light of the Neo-Orthodox movement. Neoorthodoxy responded to the liberalism of the day, which tended to deny the miraculous, often the deity of Christ, and downplayed or denied the Bible's authority. But while more conservative than the liberalism it repudiated, neoorthodoxy isn't evangelical. Barth, to give a couple examples, believed that the Bible contains the Word of God, vs. being the written Word of God. That's why if you go to, say, a mainline Presbyterian church, many of which are neoorthodox or liberal, you may hear a Scripture reading introduced with statements like, "Listen now for the word of God". Barth also separated the realms of faith and fact, unlike traditional Christian thought, which sees no need to do so. Dr. Barth explained his view using the resurrection of Christ as an example. He said he most definitely believed that Christ physically rose from the dead. But, on the other hand, if he heard about an archeological trip to the Holy Land to investigate whether or not Jesus was still buried in the tomb attributed to him, he'd want to go. He didn't see this as contradictory, since his belief in Jesus' resurrection was a matter of faith, whether it happened in history or not. Barth may definitely be read with profit, especially his commentary on Romans and his life's work, Church Dogmatics, but keep in mind what he believed.

Thanks for taking the time to spell out Barth's basic beliefs. I knew some thought him to be a false teacher. With what I had read about him, I didn't think so, but that was very little reading.

I always try to read with red flags ready but sometimes miss the mark. Again, thanks!

[Gordy]

I believe in election. I Believe that God chose two groups: The Nation Israel and the Church. He chose us WITHOUT any input from us. He chose us because He Loved us. He did NOT close us to Heaven or Hell, He chose us to be His own.

I would like to recommend a paper written by Gordon Frederick Jones, Jr. titled A Young Christian's look at the Doctrines of Grace. You can only get this from the writer. His address is: jnf_min@yahoo.com. Send your mailing address and he will send it to you.

[Jay Turner]

I believe in election. I Believe that God chose two groups: The Nation Israel and the Church. He chose us WITHOUT any input from us. He chose us because He Loved us. He did NOT close us to Heaven or Hell, He chose us to be His own.

I believe in election to the degree that God chose us because he loves us, but when he chose us, he didn't just choose the nation of Israel or the church, but instead he chose all of humanity. He will not force us to accept him, so whether we accept or reject him is in our hands. He may know what each of us will decide, but he will not remove our ability to choose.

[Gordy]

i would like to know why it is that people who claim to believe in election claim that God will save everyone. Many back there claims by using John 3:16. I recommend that you read John 3:14-17. Then go back to Deuteronomy and read Moses' dissertation concerning this subject. And remember the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.