135 replies to this topic

[joe4jcnow]

Joe, I'm not sure where this apparent dislike for, even hostility toward, trained pastors comes from. Good seminaries spend a lot more time teaching the Word than they do "men's opinions of the scriptures". Between classes studying different books of the Bible, biblical Hebrew & Greek, classes on Bible history; on how to preach & teach the Word effectively, classes on how to counsel in a biblical fashion, & the time students spend worshiping together & hearing the Bible preached at chapel & at church on Sundays, being involved in local church Bible studies and the like, they spend a lot of time in the Word. I doubt you dislike your doctor having been to med. school. your insurance agent for knowing a lot about insurance, or think your plumber's over-educated because he knows a plunger from a monkey wrench. Yet pastors are somehow more spiritual if they're less educated than the plumber, electrician & doctor. It puzzles me when we want people who take care of our health and homes to be experts in their fields, but not those the Lord asks to help us care for our souls and teach us His Word. When a pastor preaches & tells me, "The Bible says...", offers to counsel me, teaches a Bible study, etc., I want to have some assurance the guy knows what he's doing! And that, for most people, means studying for ministry.

It's not about how much you know, but about Who you know. John 17:3 There is no hostility towards pastors, just a reminder to all of Our Fathers children that IITmothy 2:15 was written for all of us not just pastors. "Study to show yourselves approved unto God(not to impress men)a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly(in a straight manner, corectly,plainly) dividing(dissecting) the word of truth... What does it mean to dissect something? How do we apply this to our lives? What does it really mean to call God Our Father, but deep down inside most Christians do no not understand the depth of what Jesus taught. If He is your Father, then you are His son or daughter...Just a little dissecting...Meditate on who He is and you discover who you really are...

[Joel Stoddert]

It's not about how much you know, but about Who you know. John 17:3 There is no hostility towards pastors, just a reminder to all of Our Fathers children that IITmothy 2:15 was written for all of us not just pastors. "Study to show yourselves approved unto God(not to impress men)a workman that need not be ashamed, rightly(in a straight manner, corectly,plainly) dividing(dissecting) the word of truth... What does it mean to dissect something? How do we apply this to our lives?

Agreed, & I'm glad there's no hostility there. It's hard to convey tone in print sometimes, as I've found out the hard way on a couple occasions.

[Joel Stoddert]

When Jesus chose the 12, He didn't choose the smartest or the most educated. He chose the fishermen and the tax collectors. We suffer from a misconception that the education is the most important factor in whether someone is qualified for spiritual leadership. In God's economy, He doesn't care about our education, our talents and abilities or our background. He cares about what is in our hearts. If He can find someone who has a heart that seeks Him and is willing to go wherever He should lead, nothing else really matters. He can get the tools and resources into their hands and through His Spirit, He can teach them whatever they need to know in order to get whatever job He placed before them done.

In all actuality, the education can be more of a hindrance than a help. When we have the piece of paper, we tend to think that because we worked our butts off to get the degree, we are qualified to do the job. But when you think about it, the more time and effort that we put into our education, the more pride and self worth God has to break us from in order to get us to the place where we can truly recognize that it is all about His grace, not about what we have accomplished. That is why Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven.

Don't get me wrong. A good education can be a good thing. Quite often God will use our time in the university to get us to where he needs us to be, but be careful not to place too much emphasis on ones education, for doesn't the Bible tell us in 1 Corinthians 1.27 that "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong."

I definitely agree, Jay, that education can be overrated, that sometimes that piece of paper can encourage unhealthy pride or lead a person to feel more qualified than he or she really is. What puzzles me is the idea that education somehow makes a person less likely to be fully open to the Spirit, or less serious about their walk. The Bible says we're to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and strength..and mind, that we are to "meditate on (his) law day and night", that we are to "study...to show ourselves approved", to teach our children the Word at every opportunity, that the Berean Christians were wise because after hearing Paul preach, they would go home and study Scripture to test what he'd said, & the list goes on. So when believers talk about not getting too educated lest they become less spiritual, they're not getting it from Scripture. For that matter, witness Christian history. You mentioned a university education sometimes being used by God. I agree. As you probably know, the great universities in Europe--Oxford, Cambridge, etc., were founded by the church. The now-Ivy League schools here were, without exception, founded as Christian colleges--Harvard, Yale, Brown, Princeton, Oberlin, Dartmouth, all of them. Harvard, Yale and Princeton's main purpose, originally, was to train up pastors, Dartmouth's to do that and also to train missionaries to our native American population. The Bible is a pro-education Book, the Christian Church has historically been pro-education. We're both educated men, & here we are on a Christian site discussing how education and following Christ relate to one another. Again, I agree that some well-educated Christians seem more committed to their knowledge than to Him, but I'd submit that the problem isn't the time they spent getting educated but the state of their hearts. One of the humblest Christians I've ever met was Dr. Roger Nicole, who just passed away at 95. A seminary prof for half a century, he had a long list of degrees & was a genius. But he was passionately in love with God and a hungry student of His Word, & known for his love for his brothers & sisters in Christ. Yes, he was a scholar, but he was a child of God and brother in Christ first. He taught me theology, but he also encouraged me in my love for Christ.

[Jay Turner]

When a pastor preaches & tells me, "The Bible says...", offers to counsel me, teaches a Bible study, etc., I want to have some assurance the guy knows what he's doing! And that, for most people, means studying for ministry.

The point that I was making was that our education and our background isn't what makes someone ready or fit for ministry. It is the heart and the calling on their life. God quite often will use someone’s education as preparation for where He is leading them, but just because someone has a doctorate in divinity doesn't mean that they were called to being a pastor or a missionary.

A formal education can have its strengths, yet like I was pointing out, it can have its weaknesses. Some people place a unhealthy emphasis on their education that can be a source of unhealthy pride and give them a sense of superiority that could hinder where God is calling them to. It can also trap people into specific modes of thought and methods of problem solving, closing doors that God may not want closed. Being able to draw from our predecessors understanding and wisdom can be a great help, but if, for example, they were basing their understanding on inconsistencies and false premises, then their conclusions could be off. If those ideas are not caught and reconciled, then they could continue to perpetuate for generations. And when you think about the theory of evolution or the idea of the earth being flat, I am sure you can imagine how widespread of an impact that can have on almost every aspect of life.

At the same time a lack of education can have it’s strengths and weaknesses. In some ways not having a formal education can free you up to explore avenues that others may not, simply because you haven’t been taught the proper way of looking at or doing a thing. This does mean that there may be quite a bit more trial and error in the discovery process, but just think of all the pleasant mistakes there have been throughout history that have benefited the world greatly through ones errors.

A lot of what I am talking about more comes down to the problems of how we do education in our schools, universities, churches and in our society, but that is more a topic for another day.

Having an education (or not having one) is not necessarily bad things. The main thing is having a heart that is willing to go wherever God is leading. But in preparing believers to seek God for themselves and sending them out to be a light unto the world, it does help to see the in’s and out’s.

Just think of all the people who may have wanted to go to college, but for whatever reason never did. They may have gone on with their lives and now feel that God is calling them to do something beyond themselves, but because of their lack of education or their pasts, they just can’t see how God could use them. By simply reminding them that God’s concern isn’t on their education, but instead on their hearts and their willingness to go wherever He may lead, that may be the encouragement that they need to take that step of faith into the unknown.

As pastors, teachers and leaders within the body of Christ, how are we helping people to see what God has placed into their hands and helping them to step out in faith in whatever place God is leading, even when we don’t feel we have anything to offer? Do we see how something like having an education can both help and hinder and are we asking the tough questions of how we can revamp the education process to better prepare people for life and whatever God may be calling them to? There are so many questions not being asked, addressed nor answered. And so much of what we are doing as a society and as the Body of Christ is only being done half way. Yet when people come around questioning our methods and trying to bring about changes to how things have always been done, they are pushed a side and discounted as being half baked or being troublemakers. Just think of the reaction that Jesus and the twelve got.

Well anyways, at some point we need to start taking our faith and our calling of fulfilling the Great Commission seriously. The Church is far from being the bride without spot or wrinkle. At some point we need to stop deluding ourselves and recognize that there are some pretty big issues that simply are not being recognized nor addressed.

[joe4jcnow]

Well spoken Brother; If I may summarize the message that my Father has spoken to me, "Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son and in the Father."

What is it that we have heard from the beginning? I was told about Christ, and then, it was the Spirit of The Living God telling me James 4:7&8, "Submit yourselves therefore to God, resist the devil and he will flee...Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."

He told me that that if I were to submit to Him, draw close to Him. He would, not He might draw close to me, He would! He said in Jeremiah, "If you will seek Me with all your heart, you will find me, I will be found of you..." Jesus said that the Great Commission is for us to "make disciples". Are we making disciples, what exactly is a disciple??? Simple questions with simple but extremely hard answers to fulfill...A disciple is a learner, a student, an imitator, a follower of Christ...Do we follow Christ, do we imitate His life. Do we go where He went, do we follow Him to prayer, do we follow Him into Getshemane??? Do we teach people to follow Him or do we teach them that He is the escape from this world??? Do we teach them to stay in prayer, in His Presence until You hear from Him or He changes you the way He changed Christ? Jesus said that eternal life was knowing Him, knowing The Father, intimately... Do we??? Do we teach this??? Are a lot of Pastors today, taking care(feeding)themselves:rather than feeding their flocks? Ezekiel 34:8

I dare to say that many Christians today haven't got a clue concerning who they truly are. This whole discussion about election or free will can be summed up very easily---Read Mathew 13, slowly, meditatively...Ask the Holy Spirit, "Teach me". God calls all, of us not just Pastors, to seek His face, and promises us that we will find Him ! Not we might find Him, "We Will Find Him." God is not a myth. He is the Creator of heaven and earth and all that is, more than capable, more than willing, to make Himself known...He is "Yehowyada" the God that makes Himself known...This is what we should be teaching...Christ paid a heavy price for us to discover who we truly are...

[joe4jcnow]

Good morning Mr. Harrell, so nice to hear you again. In regards to this discussion I think its best that we look to the word of God, look at what Christ taught and take Him at His word. Using Mr Harrell's words, "Do you believe in election(predestination) or free will when it comes to salvation?" The key word here being "believe." What causes a person to believe anyway, what causes a person, to actually believe in Christ? What happens inside a person at the moment they actually believe that Christ truly died for them? Jesus taught on this. His teaching on this I believe answers this question on predestination. In John 6:29 Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent." The word "work" in the Greek means this-to toil as an effort or occupation, doing, labor, effort. If this is in fact true, then Christ stated that, "This, the labor, the effort, the occupation of God, causes you to believe on Him whom He hath sent." You only believe in Christ, because it is God's effort, or occupation that causes you to believe in Him anyway...Therefore the act of believing in Him is taken out of your hands completely...This is proven true by what Paul wrote in Romans 10:9, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart, that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." You are saved by "believing in Christ"...Again, what or who is it that causes you to believe???(John 6:29) The scripture also states in Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship(product), created(fabricated or made)in Christ Jesus unto good works, when God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Strong's concordance(copyright 1990) states that grace <5485> charis: lit.fig. or spiritually, espescially, the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in life. If God's grace is, "His divine influence upon our heart", and we are saved by grace, that is not of ourselves but a gift of God, and we are saved by believing in Christ...It is this divine influence upon our hearts(His grace) that manuevers us at different times in our lives. I believe it is especially seen working in us at the most critical times in our lives...Where does that give any cadence to the free will having any say in salvation? I dare say that we have the same free will that Adam and Eve had. We can choose to do right or choose to do wrong, but we cannot choose Our Father...Conception, children always originates from a Father, it has never been anyway but that. Because thats the way Our Father created it...That can never change...

[Denes House]

...The key word here being "believe." What causes a person to believe anyway, what causes a person, to actually believe in Christ? What happens inside a person at the moment they actually believe that Christ truly died for them? Jesus taught on this. His teaching on this I believe answers this question on predestination. In John 6:29 Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent." The word "work" in the Greek means this-to toil as an effort or occupation, doing, labor, effort. If this is in fact true, then Christ stated that, "This, the labor, the effort, the occupation of God, causes you to believe on Him whom He hath sent."

Respectfully, I am not sure that's what Jesus is saying in that passage. Look at the verses that precede it. Jesus encouraged the crowd to labor "for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you." (v. 27) "Then they said to him, 'What must we do, to be doing the works of God?' Jesus answered them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.'" (v. 28-29) In context, when they talk about "the work(s) of God," neither Jesus nor the crowd mean the work that God does, they are talking about activity that is pleasing to God. Notice that in verse 29, the crowd takes in what Jesus says and responds by asking for a sign that would enable them to believe in him - the very work that Jesus was asking them to do. No, when seen in context, this verse is not talking about the work God does to draw people to Jesus.

That's not to deny what you say next, which is certainly true:

You only believe in Christ, because it is God's effort, or occupation that causes you to believe in Him anyway...

That is certainly supported by Scripture (Jesus says it explicitly just 14 verses later, in John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."), just not by THAT Scripture. Which means I would disagree with what you say next:

Therefore the act of believing in Him is taken out of your hands completely...

I think Joel Stoddert is closer to the mark when he says that "terms like Arminian and Calvinist are only partially adequate, since neither position totally explains biblical teaching." I don't think that theologians, Bible scholars, pastors or laypeople have yet noodled out an adequate understanding of how election and freedom work together. Perhaps we won't until we see Jesus face to face at His return, and have the chance to see it in action, unclouded by our sinful perceptions. Believing in Jesus is not completely out of our hands, else why is it commanded of us? We have a role to play, though God provides the grace in which it is made possible.

[joe4jcnow]

Respectfully Pastor, no where in this chapter does it even imply that they are talking about an activity that is pleasing to God. In fact in the Greek, the two uses of the word "work" and "works in vs. 29 are two different words. The word "work"--ergazomi--is derived from the word ergon "works". The two words are similar but carry different meanings. Ergazomi,"work", means to commit to do something, to commit to engage in something, not the act, but the intent. Ergon, "works", is the actual doing or labor of the act or occupation. They are not asking Christ "What can we do to please God?" They are saying, "What can we do, how do we go about perfoming, doing the works of God." They saw Christ face to face and did not believe. They saw Him perform the miracle of feeding the five thousand, and yet did not believe, in fact Jesus Himself said in vs.36) "But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not. 37)All that the Father giveth Me, shall come to me; and him that cometh to Me, I will in no wise cast out.38)For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will(purpose, determination) of Him that sent me.(Christ said that He could not cast you out if you came to Him, because to do so would mean that He would have to override The Fathers will, and that is not why He said He came)39)And this is the Fathers will which has sent me,(this is Christ telling us plainly, what the Fathers will or purpose is, what the Father determined)(do we believe Christ, or someone elses opinion on this?)that of all which He hath given Me I lose nothing(none), but raise him up at the last day.40)And this is the will(purpose, determination)of Him that sent Me, that everyone that seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, hath eternal life." Therefore it is not seeing Him or seeing miracles that cause you to believe...Study the Parable of the tares in Matthew 13. Look at Christ explanation of the parable...He explains the answer to the question of predestination very plainly. He could not have made it more simple to understand...Jesus was very precise, direct and simple to understand, when He explained who He came for.

[joe4jcnow]

And if I might also add that in John 6:44, Jesus said,(His words not mine) No man can come to Me, except(unless)the Father draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day." The word "draw" in the Greek literally means "to drag". If this is true, and it is, you can look it up yourself, Our Father is not trying to lure people to Christ...He is fulfilling Isaiah 43:5-7. He is calling His Sons and Daughters home... II Timothy 2:19 Respectfully.

[Denes House]

Respectfully Pastor, no where in this chapter does it even imply that they are talking about an activity that is pleasing to God. In fact in the Greek, the two uses of the word "work" and "works in vs. 29 are two different words. The word "work"--ergazomi--is derived from the word ergon "works". The two words are similar but carry different meanings.

I assume you mean verse 28? Well, they are different for one thing because one (ergazomi) is a verb, and the other (erga) is a noun. Still, they all derive from the same root, ergon, and carry similar range of meaning. The noun is the product of the verb - when you work, you produce works.

Ergazomi,"work", means to commit to do something, to commit to engage in something, not the act, but the intent.

Not sure where you're getting this from. BDAG (the standard Greek lexicon) has the following definitions for ergazomi:

• to engage in activity that involves effort, work
• to do or accomplish something through work

It is in the subjunctive, which means that it refers to what should or ought to be the case, thus it is translated, "what should/must we do" but nothing that I see in the Greek indicates that the verb relates to intention rather than action. I'm not the best Greek scholar around, so I'm open to correction, but I don't see where you're getting this idea.

Ergon, "works", is the actual doing or labor of the act or occupation.

As I mentioned before, erga is the noun. It doesn't mean the act of doing, it means the deed itself, or the product of the action.

They saw Christ face to face and did not believe. They saw Him perform the miracle of feeding the five thousand, and yet did not believe, in fact Jesus Himself said in vs.36) "But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not.

Certainly.

39)And this is the Fathers will which has sent me,(this is Christ telling us plainly, what the Fathers will or purpose is, what the Father determined)(do we believe Christ, or someone elses opinion on this?)that of all which He hath given Me I lose nothing(none), but raise him up at the last day.40)And this is the will(purpose, determination)of Him that sent Me, that everyone that seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, hath eternal life." Therefore it is not seeing Him or seeing miracles that cause you to believe...

Certainly some things John quotes Jesus as saying point in a predestinationist direction. I don't deny that, and even pointed it out in my comment on verse 44. But at the same time, some of the things John quotes Jesus as saying point to the necessity for human beings to respond to God's grace and revelation with faith and trust. Jesus scolds the leaders of the Jews in John 5:40, saying that they "refuse to come to me that you may have life." Their refusal is their downfall, the result of their choice not to trust Jesus. As you point out, they had seen Jesus' miracles, and had all the evidence they needed to entrust themselves to Him, but they chose not to.

Study the Parable of the tares in Matthew 13. Look at Christ explanation of the parable...He explains the answer to the question of predestination very plainly. He could not have made it more simple to understand...Jesus was very precise, direct and simple to understand, when He explained who He came for.

The parable of the tares in Matthew 13 IS interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with predestination. I'd be interested to hear your take on it.

Incidentally, your repetition of "respectfully" makes me think that perhaps you did not receive that word as intended. I intended it to indicate that I respect your love for, knowledge of, and commitment to the Scriptures, and that my disagreement with you on this point does not diminish my respect for you. I apologize if my use of it conveyed any other meaning. Blessings to you!

[Denes House]

And if I might also add that in John 6:44, Jesus said,(His words not mine) No man can come to Me, except(unless)the Father draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day." The word "draw" in the Greek literally means "to drag". If this is true, and it is, you can look it up yourself, Our Father is not trying to lure people to Christ...He is fulfilling Isaiah 43:5-7. He is calling His Sons and Daughters home... II Timothy 2:19 Respectfully.

I recognize, acknowledge, and am grateful for the fact that God drew me to Him. I do not claim that my salvation is due to any merit of my own, but is wholly the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That said (and you knew this was coming... )

The Greek word there for "draw" is elko, and here are BDAG's definitions for it:

• to move an object from one area to another in a pulling motion, draw (can include the notion of resistance on the part of the thing/person drawn)
• to draw a person in the direction of values for inner life, draw, attract
• to appear to be pulled in a certain direction, flow

(Hey, you said I should look it up, so I did!) The first definition supports your view, that people have absolutely no say in their salvation, while the second supports mine, that God attracts people to Himself, with the corresponding possibility that they may respond positively or negatively. In either case, God is the one who does the drawing, and if one responds in faith to Him, it does not count as a meritorious act - one that means they "deserve" the salvation God gives - but is rather the response that God requires of us. And that response, too, is the result of the gift of God's grace in our lives.

And I love 2 Timothy 2:19! The Lord absolutely knows those who are His! He knew who they would be, before the foundation of the world! And yet, He did not compel them to come in.

Don't you just love talking about God's Word, and His salvation? Praise His Holy name!

[joe4jcnow]

No offense taken, and my use of the word "respectfully" is spoken with humility,and honor, and respect. Jesus explanation of the parable of the tares is this, Matthew 13:36-38...Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare(make plain)unto us the parable of the tares of the field." vs.37,He answered and said unto them,(this is His explanation, He is going to make it plain for them to understand)"He that soweth the good seed(virtuous remnant)is the Son of man(who is the son of man?)(Christ).vs.38 The field is the world; the good seed(virtuous remnant)are the "children" of the kingdom; but the tares are the "children" of the wicked one. Notice here that He is explaining to His disciples, that the seed, and the tares, "are" "children. One sown by the Son of man, the other sown by the wicked one. According to Christ, we were sown by Him. Is this taught or mentioned any where else in the scriptures? Look at Ephesians 1:4, According as He hath chosen(selected)us in Him, before the foundation(conception) of the world,(what part of "before" do we not understand)that we be holy and without blame before Him in love. vs.5, Having predestinated us unto the "adoption of children" by Jesus Christ to Himself,("adoption of children" in the greek means "to be placed as a son")(who were we placed, as a son by???)(according to this we were placed, as a son, "by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself), according to the good pleasure(desire or purpose)of His will(determination or purpose). God Himself determined that this would come to pass. Isaiah 43:5-7, "Fear not: for I am with thee: "I will" bring thy "seed" from the east, and gather thee from the west; "I will" say to the north, give up; and to the south, keep not back, bring "my sons" from far, and "my daughters" from the ends of the earth; "everyone" that is "called by My name": for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him, yea I have made him... Has everyone who is called by His name, been brought from the north, south, east, and west? If there are sons and daughters of the "Most High" still in the earth today, and there are, are they not coming from the north, south, east, and west? And where are they being brought, drawn or dragged to? To Christ... By His grace(by His divine influence upon our heart) they(we) are being saved... And so it is...

[Joel Stoddert]

Good discussion, Joe and Denes!

[Denes House]

.vs.38 The field is the world; the good seed(virtuous remnant)are the "children" of the kingdom; but the tares are the "children" of the wicked one. Notice here that He is explaining to His disciples, that the seed, and the tares, "are" "children. One sown by the Son of man, the other sown by the wicked one. According to Christ, we were sown by Him. Is this taught or mentioned any where else in the scriptures? Look at Ephesians 1:4, According as He hath chosen(selected)us in Him, before the foundation(conception) of the world,(what part of "before" do we not understand)that we be holy and without blame before Him in love. vs.5, Having predestinated us unto the "adoption of children" by Jesus Christ to Himself,("adoption of children" in the greek means "to be placed as a son")(who were we placed, as a son by???)(according to this we were placed, as a son, "by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself), according to the good pleasure(desire or purpose)of His will(determination or purpose). God Himself determined that this would come to pass. Isaiah 43:5-7, "Fear not: for I am with thee: "I will" bring thy "seed" from the east, and gather thee from the west; "I will" say to the north, give up; and to the south, keep not back, bring "my sons" from far, and "my daughters" from the ends of the earth; "everyone" that is "called by My name": for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him, yea I have made him... Has everyone who is called by His name, been brought from the north, south, east, and west? If there are sons and daughters of the "Most High" still in the earth today, and there are, are they not coming from the north, south, east, and west? And where are they being brought, drawn or dragged to? To Christ... By His grace(by His divine influence upon our heart) they(we) are being saved... And so it is...

But you haven't dealt with the fact that in the parable, the other "seed" is "sown" by the evil one. I think if you're going to put so much emphasis on the fact that the sower "sows" the good seed, then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.

A better approach, I think, would be to recognize that not everything in a parable has relevance to the main point, and that this parable is not about predestination, but rather about the fact that there are false disciples among the true, and what to do about it.

[Theodore Rice]

Seems to me the predestination/election conundrum is created by our attempts to impose our (artificial) notion of time on the discussion.

We see the river of time from the perspective of a leaf caught in the current. God sees the river of time as if viewing it from Space. What we see as past, present and future (where we have been, where we are, and where we are going), God sees as all at once. Gods present tense includes the past, present and future simultaneously. Simply put, God is not bound in time as we are. He was quite serious when he described himself as the "I AM" (present tense).

My take is that if we look at the predestination issue from GODs perspective, we could argue that we are both elected AND have free will.... The conundrum doesn't exist.

This is also my position. The Bible teaches both, but it depends on whose perspective it appears from. Since God knows the end from the beginning, He is free to choose those who would choose Him. From our perspective, we aren't forced to choose God, we have free will.

[joe4jcnow]

But you haven't dealt with the fact that in the parable, the other "seed" is "sown" by the evil one. I think if you're going to put so much emphasis on the fact that the sower "sows" the good seed, then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.

A better approach, I think, would be to recognize that not everything in a parable has relevance to the main point, and that this parable is not about predestination, but rather about the fact that there are false disciples among the true, and what to do about it.

Pastor; I noticed that you read "I Once Knew A Man" that I posted a couple of days ago. I do not claim to have every answer, just a solid foundation of who I am, and that, had to come from God Himself. John 13:3 says that, Jesus knowing that The Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come from God, and went to God. Romans 8:28 states that, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate conformed to the image of His Son, that He be the firstborn among many brethren". I will leave you with this thought-"If Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren, and He knew where He came from and where He was going, should'nt His brethren also know???

[Denes House]

Pastor; I noticed that you read "I Once Knew A Man" that I posted a couple of days ago. I do not claim to have every answer, just a solid foundation of who I am, and that, had to come from God Himself. John 13:3 says that, Jesus knowing that The Father had given all things into His hands, and that He was come from God, and went to God. Romans 8:28 states that, "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate conformed to the image of His Son, that He be the firstborn among many brethren". I will leave you with this thought-"If Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren, and He knew where He came from and where He was going, should'nt His brethren also know???

Joe, I bless God for who you are, for what He has done in your life, and for the path that He's led you on. But I submit that I, not alone among the brethren, do not know all the same things that Jesus knows. I do believe God has predestined me to conform to the image of His Son, and I believe (as has been stated by Theodore Rice, above) that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge of free choices enabled by His Grace.

[joe4jcnow]

Joe, I bless God for who you are, for what He has done in your life, and for the path that He's led you on. But I submit that I, not alone among the brethren, do not know all the same things that Jesus knows. I do believe God has predestined me to conform to the image of His Son, and I believe (as has been stated by Theodore Rice, above) that God's predestination is based on His foreknowledge of free choices enabled by His Grace.

"But I submit that I, not alone among the brethren, do not know all the same things that Jesus knows".


He does not require us, to know everything He knew, however, I do believe, that He does require us to know and understand John 17:3,"And "this is" eternal life, that "we know you"..." And deep within that truth of "knowing Him", "experiencing Him intimately" at the very foundation, lies Sonship, not theology or doctrine, taught from a book, or by a professor in seminary. But a living, breathing, daily seeking, relationship between a Father and His children. If men of God who stand behind the pulpit would teach the people to do John 17:3,(To know God intimately)(To love Him, to seek Him with all their heart, to do the First Commandment) I believe, believers, would become of one mind, in unity, in one accord, as in the Day of Pentecost concerning the subject of predestination. Blessings and peace from God The Father and His Son Jesus Christ