135 replies to this topic

[Duvard Francois]

Proponents of conditional election argue that doctrine of unconditional election violates:
a.)the justice and righteousness of God and/or
b.)the holiness of God and/or
c.)the love of God and/or
d.) the truthfulness of God

Which position do you consider most persuasive? Why?

[Joel Stoddert]

Proponents of conditional election argue that doctrine of unconditional election violates:
a.)the justice and righteousness of God and/or
b.)the holiness of God and/or
c.)the love of God and/or
d.) the truthfulness of God

Which position do you consider most persuasive? Why?

I find the first argument most persuasive, although the third is also part of the reason I object to unconditional election. The latter states that Christ, obeying His Father's will, died for all. Since God is omniscient, He would have been well aware that the majority of that number would end up paying for their own sins in a Christless eternity instead of trusting in Christ's atoning death on the cross. This being the case, asking Christ to die for everyone's sins would be tantamount to asking His Son to suffer unnecessarily, taking on Himself the sin not only of the elect but those who are not. A theologian I read many years ago (his name escapes me now) commented that the Father causing His Son to suffer for no good reason would amount to child abuse, hardly being just, righteous, or loving--all of which God is.

[Jay Turner]

A theologian I read many years ago (his name escapes me now) commented that the Father causing His Son to suffer for no good reason would amount to child abuse, hardly being just, righteous, or loving--all of which God is.

I tend to sway more towards the free will side of things, but here is one though that may give some perspective. God, being the father that He is, may have seen the value in providing for His Son a bride. He could have seen the potential that could come out of such a union, while knowing the harm that that bride could potentially create. By giving us free will to either accept or reject Christ, we prove our love for Him. God may have also seen how having to choose to die for that bride would also give His Son a chance to prove His love for us.

I don't believe that marriage is something that God created just for us, but instead has more eternal implications. When you look at The Song of Solomon and and how throughout scripture the Body of Christ, the church, is referred to in terms of being Christ's bride, it seems to me that we should be taking it as being more literal than we do.

[Denes House]

I'm sorry - is that Jay Turner encouraging us to take something in the Bible more literally? And writing a message that's only two paragraphs long?

Okay, who hacked in to his account?

[joe4jcnow]

But you haven't dealt with the fact that in the parable, the other "seed" is "sown" by the evil one. I think if you're going to put so much emphasis on the fact that the sower "sows" the good seed, then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.

A better approach, I think, would be to recognize that not everything in a parable has relevance to the main point, and that this parable is not about predestination, but rather about the fact that there are false disciples among the true, and what to do about it.

Dear Pastor, I said a few days ago in writing to you that I did not have every answer to everything...However I have dealt with the tares(false grain)... I'm pretty sure, that you more than likely knew about these scriptures that I am about to quote...I'm pretty sure you at least looked at them in seminary.


Romans 9:6...Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel which are of Israel. vs.7...Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. vs.8...That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the "promise"(children of the what???)are counted(to take an inventory,to estimate, to account for)the seed. vs.11...(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,that "the purpose of God" according to election stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth(whose surname was called)

vs.20...Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, "Why have you made me thus?" vs.21...Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?



(then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.)

You see Pastor "You have to go there". You have to press in and seek for "The Truth". We have to get past the fear of not knowing. If not, your "foundation", what you truly believe deep down inside, is built upon fear, unknowing, and unbelief...And fear, keeps you from seeking His face, keeps you, from the "Presence of God", fear in not knowing, keeps you, from getting to know Him as "Your Father"(John 17:3) IJohn 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: "for fear has torment"...Fear, brings with it, torment, it can not bring or produce anything else. How many Christians do you know(honestly), that are so fearful about not pleasing God. Fear has been preached to them for years, instead of teaching people to seek Him with all their hearts,(to fulfill the First Commandment), they are taught, "FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS." They have been drilled with fear...

If perfect love casts out fear, and it does(IJohn4:18) and God is Love(and He is)(IJohn4:8)what gets driven out of us as we seek His face???...Fear...This is why the body of Christ is so wishy washy concerning this issue of predestination or election...So defeated in their thinking...Because most Pastors do not know...The answer lies within the "seed"...Not within your will(what you determine)the answer lies within God's purpose(will, what He determined)...ISAIAH 43:5-7..."FEAR NOT: FOR "I AM" "WITH THEE": "I WILL" BRING THY "SEED" FROM THE EAST, AND GATHER THEE FROM THE WEST. "I" "WILL" SAY TO THE NORTH, GIVE UP; AND TO THE SOUTH, KEEP NOT BACK: BRING "MY SONS" FROM AFAR, AND "MY DAUGHTERS" FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; EVEN "EVERYONE" THAT IS CALLED BY "MY NAME" FOR I HAVE CREATED HIM FOR MY GLORY, I HAVE FORMED HIM, YEA I HAVE HAVE CREATED HIM"... "

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear, what The Spirit, saith to the churches"...Matthew 13:11..."Because it is given unto "you" "to know" the mysteries(secrets)of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given"...

[Denes House]

(then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.)

You see Pastor "You have to go there". You have to press in and seek for "The Truth". We have to get past the fear of not knowing.

Brother, let me clarify - by saying "you don't want to go there," I wasn't saying that I was afraid to examine the implications of the evil one "predestining" people for damnation - I was saying that if you pursue that course, you will wind up with conclusions that are unbiblical. You see "sowing" as a description of predestination when it's the farmer sowing the good seed. Do you then think that the enemy sowing the bad seed is a description of predestination? If so, then you hold to a version of predestination unlike any I've ever seen.

Blessings to you!

Denes

[Joel Stoddert]

(then you also have to emphasize that the evil one "sows" the tares, and I don't think you want to go there.)

You see Pastor "You have to go there". You have to press in and seek for "The Truth". We have to get past the fear of not knowing.

Joe, I really appreciate your hunger to learn more of the Word, and dig deep into its riches. We can study the Bible's pages for a lifetime and never grasp every last detail of that incredible Book! Part being a faithful student of Scripture is, as Paul says, "rightly handling" it. One way we do it is letting the Word speak for itself rather than reading things into it. Denes correctly points out, for example, that parables are stories with one main point: So if you're seeing more than one main point in a parable, you're reading something into it that isn't really there. The parable of the wheat and the tares, for example, isn't about election, so Denes is correct in saying that it's improper to use this parable to teach on that topic. There are plenty of passages in Scripture which do talk about election, but this story isn't one of them. "Press in and seek for the Truth", by all means. The Lord desires that we do so, you're right. But that means letting Him speak for Himself through Scripture, not coming up with what we think He's saying and finding passages to prove it.

[Kaokue]

I just want to say that you guys are all so smart. Haha, anyways, my answer would have to be Predestination. I believe God is sovereign. He knows all and is above all. However, we don't and we aren't. So, maybe it seems like free will to us, but it's predestined to Him.

And another note on Free will... I believe God is the only one with real free will. He has the will to do whatever he wants, when he wants, how he wants. We don't. We can never do or be anything other than what God wants us do to and be. For example, I'll never be a 6'3" NBA all star no matter how much I will it.

[Jay Turner]

When I look at the idea of the sovereignty of God, I don't see it as his unconditional control over His creation. Instead I see it from a Biblical perspective of a father. He looks at the overall needs, desires and dreams of His family, makes decisions and plans based on these and other considerations. Then He guides the family, both as individuals and as a group, to best accomplish the family vision. God has the power to dictate the actions of His children, but I believe that He prefers to use their willing cooperation. Did He know know every thought, choice and action that each of us would make, even before He started the creation process? Maybe yes, maybe no. But I believe that He has truly given us the ability to make our own decisions and the ability to choose Him or not. That is just part of being a loving Father.

[Jay Turner]

I do believe that God chooses us, but that that choice is more of a mutual choice. All of humanity has been chosen for adoption and is offered forgiveness , redemption and salvation through the death and resurrection of His son, Jesus Christ But like with any gift, a gift must be freely given and freely received. The Holy Spirit draws each and every one of us, but it is in our hands whether we choose to listen and receive what is being presented.

When God revealed Himself, the relationships between the members of the trinity, and their relationships with humanity, throughout scripture, He used terms like father, son, husband, wife, children, bride, bridegroom etc, because these were terms that we could understand and have a basic knowledge of their form and function.

Sometimes what I do is look at these terms and word pictures that He uses and start asking why He would refer to himself in these terms. For example, we, as members of the Body of Christ are referred to as the Bride of Christ. This should draw us into asking what is the significance of things like a bride and a bridegroom, the betrothal, and wedding. The marriage between a man and a woman should be a mutual agreement between the two parties to come together as one. The future bridegroom would present a proposal to unite in marriage with the future bride. Then she would weigh the pros and cons of the proposal and choose for herself to accept or reject. Of course there are variations when it comes to pre-arranged marriages and the likes, but the point is that Christ wants us to choose Him because we want to be with Him. He doesn't want us to say "Yes" because we were chosen by His Father, but instead because we truly want to unite with Him in marriage.

[joe4jcnow]

Brother, let me clarify - by saying "you don't want to go there," I wasn't saying that I was afraid to examine the implications of the evil one "predestining" people for damnation - I was saying that if you pursue that course, you will wind up with conclusions that are unbiblical. You see "sowing" as a description of predestination when it's the farmer sowing the good seed. Do you then think that the enemy sowing the bad seed is a description of predestination? If so, then you hold to a version of predestination unlike any I've ever seen.

Blessings to you!

Denes

Pastor, I do not know what version of the Bible you are reading, but my King James states clearly, that Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 13:37&38 that "the sower was the son of man", not a farmer...He also explained to His disciples that the good seed "are" "the children of the kingdom"...According to Matthew, a man that walked and talked with Jesus, this is what He said...Not something that I made up, or pulled from thin air...When His disciples came to Him and said, "Declare unto us(define, explain, interpret)unto us, the parable of the tares...He did...This is not my interpretation, this is not me trying to get the Word of God to say something that I want it to say...These are Christ's words, not mine...I'll take Christ at His word every time...I'll trust The Holy Spirit's teaching over yours anyday... God Bless

[Joel Stoddert]

Pastor, I do not know what version of the Bible you are reading, but my King James states clearly, that Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 13:37&38 that "the sower was the son of man", not a farmer...He also explained to His disciples that the good seed "are" "the children of the kingdom"...According to Matthew, a man that walked and talked with Jesus, this is what He said...Not something that I made up, or pulled from thin air...When His disciples came to Him and said, "Declare unto us(define, explain, interpret)unto us, the parable of the tares...He did...This is not my interpretation, this is not me trying to get the Word of God to say something that I want it to say...These are Christ's words, not mine...I'll take Christ at His word every time...I'll trust The Holy Spirit's teaching over yours anyday... God Bless

Keep reading, Joe. Verses 38-39: "and the field is the world;. and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil..." (emphasis mine).

[Denes House]

Pastor, I do not know what version of the Bible you are reading, but my King James states clearly, that Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 13:37&38 that "the sower was the son of man", not a farmer...He also explained to His disciples that the good seed "are" "the children of the kingdom"...According to Matthew, a man that walked and talked with Jesus, this is what He said...Not something that I made up, or pulled from thin air...When His disciples came to Him and said, "Declare unto us(define, explain, interpret)unto us, the parable of the tares...He did...This is not my interpretation, this is not me trying to get the Word of God to say something that I want it to say...These are Christ's words, not mine...I'll take Christ at His word every time...I'll trust The Holy Spirit's teaching over yours anyday... God Bless

Whoa, whoa, whoa Joe. I used "farmer" to mean "sower." I completely agree with Jesus' parable.

Jesus was making one main point with the parable of the wheat and the tares, and my comment to you was a caution not to push the parable beyond the point for which Jesus told it. If you push every detail, and if you insist that "sowing" means "predestination," then you wind up with the enemy predestining some for damnation, which is not a conclusion that I think you would want to arrive at. No?

In fact, the parable is not as much about the sowing as it is about the difficulty in telling the wheat from the tares. And the main point of the parable is, don't go crazy trying to weed God's field - the reapers will take care of it in the end.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm criticizing you, or that I want you to ignore Christ's teachings in favor of mine.

[joe4jcnow]

Whoa, whoa, whoa Joe. I used "farmer" to mean "sower." I completely agree with Jesus' parable.

Jesus was making one main point with the parable of the wheat and the tares, and my comment to you was a caution not to push the parable beyond the point for which Jesus told it. If you push every detail, and if you insist that "sowing" means "predestination," then you wind up with the enemy predestining some for damnation, which is not a conclusion that I think you would want to arrive at. No?

In fact, the parable is not as much about the sowing as it is about the difficulty in telling the wheat from the tares. And the main point of the parable is, don't go crazy trying to weed God's field - the reapers will take care of it in the end.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm criticizing you, or that I want you to ignore Christ's teachings in favor of mine.

Pastor, How about we throw out what has obviously been taught in denominational seminary, and follow The Holy Spirit. Whose job it is to lead us and guide us, to teach us the truth. We may have been taught that the most important thing to be concerned about in this parable was, to let God weed out the tares. But I submit to you that I believe that the teaching is more about Sonship. II Timothy 2:15 states,"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman(a laborer)that needeth not be ashamed, rightly(in a plain straight manner) dividing(to dissect)the word of truth. Why does the Word of God tell us to dissect it? What does it mean to dissect something. I would not have known the answer to this if I had not been seeking God, crying out to Him to know Him, doing John 17:3,"This is eternal life that they "know" "You", The only True God and Jesus Christ...He kept bringing me to this scripture about "dividing the word of truth"...I finally ask Him,"Father what does it mean "to divide the word of truth"? How do you divide the word? Thats when the gift of teaching kicked in, I started following that leading of The Spirit, listening to that still small voice, the voice of The Spirit, following His direction...To dissect something, means to cut out a part of something, and study it until you understand it. He was dealing with me about rebuilding the foundation in my life...You see Pastor, what lies deep down inside people, what they truly believe, at the very core of their being, what they truly believe is what makes up their foundation. This is all that we have and can stand on, when times of trouble come. And they do come...Jesus said that if we are in this world, we will experience tribulation(my paraphrase)John 16:33.
So when we encounter times of trouble and tribulation, all we have to stand on is this foundation, of what it is that we believe. And II Timothy 2:19 states "That the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal,"The Lord Knows those that are His". "And let everyoneone, that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity".If God knows those that are His, and Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren, and He knew where He came from and where He was going. "Should not His brethren know also"? If John 17:3 tells us that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus Christ, And Christ came to declare or make plain to us that Gods' name was "The Father", then guess where you came from, and guess where you are going. If a person, deep down inside, does not know, who they truly are(I'm speaking of Christians here), they begin to question and doubt God...What they truly believe comes to the surface...Do they have peace and understand who they truly are, or do they get angry at God and question,"Why am I here? Does God even love me? Does He even care what I am going through? If God loved me, why is this happening to me? If God loved me why would He let this happen in my life? Being a Pastor, I believe you just might have come across this with some people, maybe not. However, I have known, and still know, many Christians today that deep down inside, they truly do not know for a fact, that they are God's, Sons and Daughters. They are constantly defeated in their minds, in their souls, walking around depressed feeling rejected, without any hope because deep down inside they do not know the truth, when in fact, in truth, what Christ Himself said, that if you came to Him, He could not lose you, and He would not cast you out, because to do so would mean that He would have to override His Fathers will, and thats not why He said He came(John 6:35-40).

Now back to the parable of the tares. Jesus told His disciples that the "sower" was the "Son of man"...Who is the Son of man? Answer--"Jesus Christ"...Who did Jesus say were the "good seed"? "The children of the kingdom...I did not even have to ask God, "is this taught anywhere else in the scriptures"? He instantly took me to Ephesians 1:4+5 which states,"According as "He" has chosen(to select,to choose out)"us" "in Him" "before" the foundation(or conception)of the world, that we be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having "predestinated" "us", "unto" the "adoption of chldren"(to be placed as a son),"by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself, according to the good pleasure of "His" "will". Now, I do not believe that it takes a brain surgeon to figure this out. I am a simple man, I am always asking God, "Lord, just make it simple, plain for me to understand, and low and behold, He does. Paul wrote that we were "placed" "as sons" "by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself. These scriptures absolutely agree and speak of the same theme or meaning...We are "Sons and Daughters of The Most High God". We need to stand upon the truth-Christ-We need to stand upon what He taught-truth...Our foundation needs to be built upon the truth of God's word.........Blessings in Christ..........

[Denes House]

Pastor, How about we throw out what has obviously been taught in denominational seminary, and follow The Holy Spirit.

Again with the hostility toward Seminary!

Rest assured, brother, I never studied this passage in my nasty old Seminary. It's just me here, with my Bible on the desk next to me, reading what it says on the page and listening to the Holy Spirit.

We may have been taught that the most important thing to be concerned about in this parable was, to let God weed out the tares. But I submit to you that I believe that the teaching is more about Sonship.

I agree that sonship is mentioned in the parable, clearly. And I agree with you that knowing that one is a son or a daughter of God is very important. I don't think that's the main point of THIS passage, but it is clearly the main point of many other passages. Just reading the passage, brother, you notice that Jesus told this parable immediately following another parable about seeds growing in a field, and just before a third parable about a seed growing in a field, yes? (Matthew 13:1-43) The first parable about seed is primarily about the receptiveness of the heart in receiving God's Word, and the importance of the Word bearing fruit (v. 18-23). In that parable, the seed is the Word. In the second parable, it's talking about two different kinds of seed growing up side by side - the children of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one. (v.24-30/36-43) In this parable, the seed is people. The third parable is about the exponential growth of God's kingdom, from very small to filling the earth, and in this parable the seed is the kingdom. (v. 31-33) Right?

Jesus does mention that the good seed is the children of the kingdom and that the bad seed is the sons of the evil one, but that's not where His explanation ends. He moves on to talk about the harvest, and the reapers, and what the angels will do with the harvest at the close of the age. He seems to spend most of His time in the explanation talking about these things - the identification of the seed seems to be the set-up, the background. While it's there, it's not the central focus of the parable. That's not to say it's unimportant, nor that it's not taught elsewhere in Scripture. Just to say that in this parable, Jesus is making another point, a point that we don't want to miss.

II Timothy 2:15 states,"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman(a laborer)that needeth not be ashamed, rightly(in a plain straight manner) dividing(to dissect)the word of truth. Why does the Word of God tell us to dissect it? What does it mean to dissect something.

I know you have access to some sort of Greek lexicon, Joe. What does your Greek lexicon say is the meaning of the Greek word translated "rightly dividing" in the King James Version?

So when we encounter times of trouble and tribulation, all we have to stand on is this foundation, of what it is that we believe. And II Timothy 2:19 states "That the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal,"The Lord Knows those that are His". "And let everyoneone, that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity".If God knows those that are His, and Jesus was the firstborn among many brethren, and He knew where He came from and where He was going. "Should not His brethren know also"?

Please clarify for me, Joe - where in 2 Timothy is the quote, "should not His brethren know also"? I can't find it there, but perhaps I'm missing it?

Now back to the parable of the tares. Jesus told His disciples that the "sower" was the "Son of man"...Who is the Son of man? Answer--"Jesus Christ"...Who did Jesus say were the "good seed"? "The children of the kingdom...I did not even have to ask God, "is this taught anywhere else in the scriptures"? He instantly took me to Ephesians 1:4+5 which states,"According as "He" has chosen(to select,to choose out)"us" "in Him" "before" the foundation(or conception)of the world, that we be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having "predestinated" "us", "unto" the "adoption of chldren"(to be placed as a son),"by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself, according to the good pleasure of "His" "will". Now, I do not believe that it takes a brain surgeon to figure this out. I am a simple man, I am always asking God, "Lord, just make it simple, plain for me to understand, and low and behold, He does. Paul wrote that we were "placed" "as sons" "by" "Jesus Christ" to Himself. These scriptures absolutely agree and speak of the same theme or meaning...We are "Sons and Daughters of The Most High God". We need to stand upon the truth-Christ-We need to stand upon what He taught-truth...Our foundation needs to be built upon the truth of God's word.........Blessings in Christ..........

Brother, I completely agree that Christians are sons and daughters of the Most High. You are right that it is taught in various ways throughout the Scriptures. It is assumed in the parable of the tares, as well. But it is not the point of the parable of the tares, and to claim that "sowing" in the parable of the tares means "predestination" is unwarranted by the text. And you have yet to explain what you think it means when Jesus said that the enemy ALSO sowed seed in that field (v. 38-39). If you believe that "sowing" means "predestination" in v. 37, do you believe that the Devil predestines people for damnation in v. 39?

I understand that you and I disagree about predestination. And I enjoy the discussion. Let's be kind to one another as we disagree.

Blessings to you!

Denes

[joe4jcnow]

Again with the hostility toward Seminary!

Rest assured, brother, I never studied this passage in my nasty old Seminary. It's just me here, with my Bible on the desk next to me, reading what it says on the page and listening to the Holy Spirit.



I agree that sonship is mentioned in the parable, clearly. And I agree with you that knowing that one is a son or a daughter of God is very important. I don't think that's the main point of THIS passage, but it is clearly the main point of many other passages. Just reading the passage, brother, you notice that Jesus told this parable immediately following another parable about seeds growing in a field, and just before a third parable about a seed growing in a field, yes? (Matthew 13:1-43) The first parable about seed is primarily about the receptiveness of the heart in receiving God's Word, and the importance of the Word bearing fruit (v. 18-23). In that parable, the seed is the Word. In the second parable, it's talking about two different kinds of seed growing up side by side - the children of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one. (v.24-30/36-43) In this parable, the seed is people. The third parable is about the exponential growth of God's kingdom, from very small to filling the earth, and in this parable the seed is the kingdom. (v. 31-33) Right?

Jesus does mention that the good seed is the children of the kingdom and that the bad seed is the sons of the evil one, but that's not where His explanation ends. He moves on to talk about the harvest, and the reapers, and what the angels will do with the harvest at the close of the age. He seems to spend most of His time in the explanation talking about these things - the identification of the seed seems to be the set-up, the background. While it's there, it's not the central focus of the parable. That's not to say it's unimportant, nor that it's not taught elsewhere in Scripture. Just to say that in this parable, Jesus is making another point, a point that we don't want to miss.



I know you have access to some sort of Greek lexicon, Joe. What does your Greek lexicon say is the meaning of the Greek word translated "rightly dividing" in the King James Version?



Please clarify for me, Joe - where in 2 Timothy is the quote, "should not His brethren know also"? I can't find it there, but perhaps I'm missing it?




Brother, I completely agree that Christians are sons and daughters of the Most High. You are right that it is taught in various ways throughout the Scriptures. It is assumed in the parable of the tares, as well. But it is not the point of the parable of the tares, and to claim that "sowing" in the parable of the tares means "predestination" is unwarranted by the text. And you have yet to explain what you think it means when Jesus said that the enemy ALSO sowed seed in that field (v. 38-39). If you believe that "sowing" means "predestination" in v. 37, do you believe that the Devil predestines people for damnation in v. 39?

I understand that you and I disagree about predestination. And I enjoy the discussion. Let's be kind to one another as we disagree.

Blessings to you!

Denes

Pastor. A man I deeply admire, once said,"What I believe about God is the most important thing about me"...And I love todays quote, "Truth that is not experienced is no better than error, and may be fully as dangerous". I have traveled this country from one end to the other and visited many churches. I have seen and heard first hand what America's seminaries are putting in our pulpits. Sir, there is a great difference between belief, and unbelief. When you have Pastors, who don't even believe the scriptures, have never experienced or even known God's Presence. There is a huge difference between "Reality" and "Religion". An astronomical difference between "God's Presence" and no presence. A huge difference in God being "Our Father", and "God" just being a God who is looking and desiring children, that went as far as sending Christ to die a horrible death on the cross, for the possibilty, that someone might believe in Him, and make Him Lord...God did not come up with the plan of salvation, throw it up in the air, and hope on a wing and a prayer that it lands on somebody... To many times have I heard come from behind the pulpit,"If you walk out that door without making Jesus Christ Lord of your life, you could get hit by a car and spend eternity in hell(My all time favorite). People are being taught(a foundation is being layed)that they have the power to make Jesus Christ Lord, God then becomes their Father. Exactly the opposite of what John taught in chapter 1:12+13, But as many as received(took hold of)Him, to them gave He power(authority and jurisdiction, the right)to become(to come into being)"the sons of God"(the right and the authority to become who they were,are)...to them that believe on His name. Again what makes you believe in God? Jesus taught on this, I mentioned it in my earlier writings. You and I cannot make Jesus Lord...He already was, and is... What I have seen and heard coming from behind the pulpits in this Country, wreaks of religion. There is no "Presence of God, no manifestation of The Spirit, there is however mans theology, church history, religion and unbelief, oh yea, and movie clips. And lest I forget, "Give and it shall be given unto you....you cannot outgive God...." I believe it says something in Jeremiah about Pastors feeding themselves rather than feeding their flocks.

All I'm saying Pastor is that in all my travels, I have never one time heard come from behind the pulpit, "Seek Me, with all your heart, you will find Me"... "To draw near to God and "He Will" draw near to you"... Never heard a message on John 17:3, "This is eternal life, that they Know You, The Only True God and Jesus Christ..." "Do we truly understand what it means to know God...?"

25 years of seeking God, experiencing His Presence, studying the scriptures for thousands of hours, searching for meanings of words in the Greek,Hebrew,and Aramaic, because I just wanted to know the truth, I just wanted to know God. Listening for, and hearing His voice speak to me, and tell me, "You will always be My Son." I believe this qualifies me to say this about predestination or election..."JESUS SAID"(not me)The sower "IS" THE SON OF MAN. The "good seed "ARE" the children of the kingdom. The tares "ARE" the children of the wicked, the enemy that sowed them "IS THE DEVIL". Call me stupid, uneducated(though I have been to seminary also). Call me anything you want, draw any conclusion about me that you wish, I just believe what Christ said about the tares...God told me one time(actually not to long ago)"I didn't call you to understand everything, I called you to seek My face and to know Me"... And that's what I do. Plain and simple.

[Denes House]

I believe this qualifies me to say this about predestination or election..."JESUS SAID"(not me)The sower "IS" THE SON OF MAN. The "good seed "ARE" the children of the kingdom. The tares "ARE" the children of the wicked, the enemy that sowed them "IS THE DEVIL". Call me stupid, uneducated(though I have been to seminary also). Call me anything you want, draw any conclusion about me that you wish, I just believe what Christ said about the tares...God told me one time(actually not to long ago)"I didn't call you to understand everything, I called you to seek My face and to know Me"... And that's what I do. Plain and simple.

Joe, as Marvin pointed out, nobody's calling you stupid or uneducated. I believe, if you'll look back at what I've written to you, that I have gone out of my way to affirm you. I'm not certain why you think that on the above points (that the sower is the Son of Man, the good seed are the children of the kingdom, the tares are the children of the wicked, and the enemy is the Devil) I disagree with you. You keep repeating them as if I've argued against them, which I have not.

Blessings to you! I'm not sure this particular discussion has anywhere else left to go.

Denes