40 replies to this topic

[Gordy]

I have just one thing I ask, Where do you put your trust? Mine is on the Father. I found that God "elected" two peoples. The Nation Israel and the church.

[Gordy]

I have a hard time trying to understand where many get the idea that Christ died for the whole world. I find it hard to believe those that believe this world, brings their scripture proving this is nothing more than a word or two. Please use context. It might surprise you what God says.

Peace & Love in Christ,
Gordy

[Charles Miles]

Gordy,
I earnestly believe that Christ died for everyone. He was sacrificed to allow us to again have a relationship with the Father that was lost in the garden. To explain my belief, I will not quote a few verses and expect that to settle the issue, but I might suggest the Book of Romans as foundation and then ask...if Christ didn`t die for everyone, then who did He die for? I read that "all creation is groaning" waiting until that day. I do believe that He died for us all, but everyone will probably not take Him up on His offer of this relationship. Did God create man just as kindling for the fire? I don`t think that is true at all, and we all have a personal choice to make on the matter. God loved us before we loved Him, or even knew about Him, so why would anyone think that God`s sacrifice of His only Son would not be for everyone. Was Christ`s death on the cross not enough? If our God came to earth and died a sacrificial death to solve the sin problem, what else would be required? You said that you put your trust in the Father(and so do I), but what do we trust Him for?
Jesus said.."Love one another even as I have loved you, love one another". That`s a difficult job sometimes, but it is not just a suggestion, it is a comandment. God loved me before I accepted Christ into my heart, so if He can do that, He loves everybody. They just have to realise that and accept it as true. Anyone can do that, but it is a sad fact that some may never do it. He still love them but He also gives them a choice to love Him or not to love Him.

Peace be with you brother,

Charlie

[Kenny]

A simple statement from my own understanding of Scripture would be - God has elected to save whosoever believeth.

[Thinker]

I was scanning through here and another thought occurred to me. With such a too often shallow presentation of what it means to be born again, it seems to be a very timely admonition for us today. Making our calling and election sure would include being sure that our response to the offer of salvation was a spiritual response and not just an intellectual response. Understanding our need only, could simply be more knowledge. Understanding our need and opening our lives to Him is the only way we can make our calling and election sure. Intellectual only is spiritually sterile. When we respond fully, we find that He responds to us, thereby instilling the assurance that we had a genuine conversion. Thinker (Ron)

[Charles Miles]

As I read through some posts here I wonder a bit about how some of us come to conclusions that we do. I`m certainly not a theologian or Bible expert, but I do know how much God loves us and all of the trouble He has gone to for us to have a relationship with Him. All the work is done, finished, over, caput....all any of us need do at this time is to accept that God, in His infinite wisdom, has solved the sin problem for us. God has solved the problem, not me or any denomination of the christian church located on planet earth. We men attempt to play games with semantics on occasion, parsing the word into small meaningless blurbs that either do not make sense or are too brief to encompass what is the true meaning,take statements out of their context, or/and simply miss what is being said. Shame on us if we end up complicating and confusing the plan of salvation for those who need to understand it most. The plan of salvation is so simple that many try to make it much more complicated than it is, and therefore wander off into the thoelogical jungle creating doubt and confusion. "It is better that a millstone be tied around one`s neck and he be dropped into the deepest sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble" I certainly do not suggest that I have everything in the Word boiled down to the basic essence, but to suggest that Christ didn`t die for us all is simply not scriptural. One MUST take the Bible as a whole story of a King that was betrayed by His creation, and the whole story is about how He reconciled the world back to Himself. Were not all the sons of Adam offered the chance to believe(even those who have not known Christ have a dispensation). Romans 5: 6-10 kind of sums up what God has done and for whom it was done. Paraphrase.....When we were utterly helpless with no way of escape, Christ came at just the right time, and died for us sinners who had no use for Him. 9- God showed His great love for us while we were still sinners.....when we were His enemies we were brought back to God by the death of His Son. So Christ died for men with no hope, sinners, lawbreakers, people who didn`t even know who God was or what He was doing for them......can I add that NONE of these were believers? Man`s debt is "paid in full" and all that needs to be done is for man to accept that this debt is paid, recognise who paid it, and the deal is done. "God would that NONE should perish, but have everlasting life". Christ died for us all, one sacrifice for all sin for all time, and all we need to do is accept it, it`s free, works won`t get it for you, and once obtained, it can`t be lost or taken from you.
I do not wish to offend anyone. I do not want to cause confusion or contention among brothers and sisters. I will take my leave,

May the God of the universe be with and bless you all,

Charlie

[Kevin Blankenship]

Charlie, and everyone else. I have a terrible problem with (as A.W. Tozer called it) "the particular atonement." I certainly believe that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL may find/have eternal life. That belief is embedded in me deeply. The Calvinistic view that Christ only died for a select few has never done ONE THING but cause chaos and confusion in my mind, especially when I am trudging through the proverbial, but well known, valley that we find ourselves in from time to time. God demonstrated His love to us (who is us?)...I believe that 'us' is all humans as in "For God so loved the world (who is the world?) . When I am struggling with doubt (am I the only one who does this?? Billy Graham even struggled with serious doubt while in seminary, even to the point of almost throwing in the towel) the LAST THING THAT I NEED TO HEAR is that "well, Jesus only dies for a select few!" because immediately my mind processes that into thinking: "OH NO!!!!! Am I one of the ones that He DIDN'T DIE FOR????"
I tell ya, I have learned that, even if Calvinism was straight out of the Bible, that it is still best for me to live my life before God, and walk my walk before God, as if Eternal Security WASN'T true. (Eternal security is one of the five major points of Calvinism.) Personally, I believe that God gave us a free will. So that I can CHOOSE to love Him and surrender my life to Him.....instead of, like a preprogrammed robot, I am automatically set apart for salvation via "Irresistable Grace". (Yet another of the Five points of Calvinism). But my original post wasn't really a supposed to be a stimulus for a good healthy Armineanism versus Calvinism. And I have several Clavinistic brothers in Christ whom I love and I am convinced that they love Jesus. Same with my Armenian brethren. I guess I am somewhere in between with strong leanings toward Armineanism. I could be wrong. But I don't think I am. Thanks for everyone's feedback by the way. I learn from all of you.

[Kenny]

It seems to me that if Christ didn't die for all men then how would it be possible to fairly judge all men come judgment day.

For example; Christ died for Rose and Rose believes and is saved. Christ didn't die for Doug and therefore nothing Doug could do would bring about his salvation.

Rose is judged for her ability to become saved while Doug is judged based upon his inability to become saved

I don't see how I could be considered a fair and benevolent judge if I were to arrive at such a judgment.

But hey, what do I know.

[Kevin Blankenship]

Great point Kenny. That is a great way of thinking it through, and aftyer thinking, arriving at that conclusion. I wonder, too, about Doug, and the seeming injustice of it. And the problem with me is this: There are days, when I feel like Doug!!!!!!!!!! But do you know, or does anyone know what I do when I feel like Doug, or like one whom wonders: "If Christ dies for a chosen few, I wonder if MY name is written in the Lamb's book of life." It is sheer torture for me to believe that perhaps, by some weird mental flaw, I am one who has read enough Scripture to know that I do NOT want to be around when God's Wrath is fully unleashed "against all ungodliness and those who REJECT the truth". When going through those times, I begin praying and using alot of scripture as I pray....for instance: "Thank you God, that you have demonstrated Your love to us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. and thank you God, that I am one of the 'world' that you refer to in John 3:16, and thank you God, that in Your patience and longsfferring, that You are not willing that any should perish and thank You God for Jesus's story about the seeds that the farmer sows and for His teaching on the outcome of those who hears the Gospel (the Seed is planted), NOT to just the elect, but the WHOLE WORLD. Thank you God, that I am also one of your creation, made in Your likeness, and therefore a potential recipient of your Grace."
Now...gals and guys....I will confess something here.....I have even had the blasphemous thought, in tim,es of despair and frustration (which are NOT the norm for me, yet I write about them to uplift the man/woman who feels the same from time to time) I have even wondered how hideously cruel it would be for me to go through with my Christian duties, being sober and vigilant in prayer, reading and trying to understand the Whole Counsel of God via the Scriptures, and then dying suddenly, and finding myself in hell.......and at judgement day, my asserting to Jesus: "I prayed, I read my Bible, I di the best I could with the mental capacity that I had, to be a disciple of Yours Jesus!!!" And Jesus telling me: "Away from me, I never knew you."
(I am now shifting the topic just a hair) Sometimes I read the scripture: "And if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." and I get a big lump in my throat!!!! Because how am I to really know that Christ's Spirit indwells me??? Will I all of a sudden become more benevolent (Like Scrooge did on Christmas Day, having a dramatic turn-a-round in his way of being: 'once a miserly old grouch who had no compassion' to a kind hearted, loving and generous soul (after the visitation by the three Ghosts of Christmas, Past, Present, and Future?
I prefer to keep it simple: I don't know if I was Divinely set apart for salvation or not (If Calvinism is legit), but I live my life, and say my prayers, and when I pray I say to God: " God, if I didn't have faith of some sort, I certainly would have quit the habit of daily praying a while back, but i cannot perceive,nor do I WANT to perceive the thought of God not listening when I pray, Prayer has often been the very thing that kept me from just having a meltdown. In other words, I certainly would NOT waste time praying if I thought, per chance, that I wasn't among the 'elect' (as the the word 'elect' is properly used in Scripture. Remembering that the things of the Spirit cannot be accepted or understood by mere human reasoning, They are Spiritually discerned. The human, reasoning, mind......can take scripture....and apply it's powers of deducement, and come up with nothing more than man's IDEA about what the scriptures are truly referring too. Like the word "ELECT". The first thing the mind says is " Ah....so I deduce that SOME are chosen....and therefore, it is logical to assume that some are NOT." And from there, has sprung one of the largest dividing factors in the church for century after century, A man of God, John Wesley rejected Calvinism. Charles Spurgeon, another man of God....embraced it. Both......men of God (I believe) yet with two radically different points of view. I suppose that when two brothers like that get togther....they should focus, and edify one another, in what they DO agree upon. And there is enough in the Glorious Gospel....to agree upon without ever touching this subject....especially if this subject is a sore pont. Jesus prayed: "Father....I pray that they may be one....even as You and I are one!!!" (By the way, and this is totally off subject, whenever you meet someone who does NOT believe in the Trinity, show them THIS scripture.....the one I just wrote. Jesus prayed: "I pray they may be ONE......EVEN as You and I are one." Speaking as a fellow human...you and I are two....right?.....but Christ asserts that we can be one!!!! So it is possible, according to the words of Christ, for the Godhead to be Three in One. Get it?? There are two of us......Christ prays that we be one. yet there are still two entities....you.....and me. So likewise, with God.....Three.....but One. But Three. (I should have shared that somehwere else) It is early in the morning, and I have woken up early. I don't want to spend all morning on this computer. I'm going to "Early in the morning woll I rise up and seek THEE!" Join me? Awesome!

[Kenny]

Because how am I to really know that Christ's Spirit indwells me???

Hi Kevin

I can only relate to you from Scripture why I know that God's Spirit lives in me. Since 2 Cor 13:5 says we are to "examine ourselves to see (or determine) whether we are in the faith, then I need to learn from Scripture how I go about "examining myself" First of all if God indwells me then there must have been some changes made in me. 2 Cor 5:17 says; if any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things have passed away, behold all things have become new. I can't speak for others but when I became saved God changed me from the inside out. God gave me a new attitude, an new way of thinking, a new outlook on life, along with a new way of loving, plus a peace that passes all understanding, etc. Secondly Rom 8:16 gives us another clue as we go about examining ourselves. Rom 8:16 says that God's Spirit bears witness with our human spirit that we are a child of his. In other words the Holy Spirit provides us with an inner witness to the fact that we belong to Him. Thirdly, we could also include the fruit of the Spirit which is more evidence to see which of those fruits we possess. When we become saved people should recognize and see fruit in our lives as we grow in Christ and become more and more conformed to the image of Christ Jesus. And lastly, the fact that the unbelieving world dislikes me is evidence that I am on God's side.

[Candice]

The Calvinistic view that Christ only died for a select few has never done ONE THING but cause chaos and confusion in my mind,
I tell ya, I have learned that, even if Calvinism was straight out of the Bible, that it is still best for me to live my life before God, and walk my walk before God, as if Eternal Security WASN'T true. (Eternal security is one of the five major points of Calvinism.)

I believe the mid-point between Calvinism and Arminianism is where I stand personally. Not that either term is biblical really. I believe that the real deal is that the Lord knows who is saved now and who will be saved - ultimately. But, we don't. So, we 1) are witnesses for Christ to be instruments and 2) we do not separate the wheat from the tares. So, with respect to the terms, it is what the Lord knows about the eternity of all humanity and what we don't know. Just a thought. I always say "I don't have the Book of Life. And, I know it cannot be checked out of the library"

[Thinker]

I remember Dr. J. Edwin Orr saying one time that he had studied the Bible for well over 50 years and was convinced it was a Calvinistic....................................Arminian Book. The point that he was making is that both men simply made attempts to fit the Bible into a man-made frame of reference. Both had Truth and both had error. Scripture alone has the only reliable balance. Hard study will yield more and more of that balance in our lives. God's Word doesn't bend to men's systems; the systems will have to give way to the Word. They are helpful to motivate study to try and discern what is Scriptural and what isn't. The systems will be gone; the Word of the Lord will endure forever. II Timothy 2:15 has it right, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Thinker (Ron).

[Kevin Blankenship]

A hearty thanks for all the replies to this ongoing discussion of: "make every effort (one would tend to place the emphasis on EVERY), to make one's calling and election sure. That seems to say to me: If you are not sure....then make it your tip top priority to make sure!!!!
It is like the Word of God KNEW that there would be drastically different personalities......some a bit chilled, like mine......some more like Kenny, who states that there was a drastic turn-around point in his life when he was saved: "When I got saved, God changed me from the inside out". quoting Kenny.
But when I gave my life to Jesus on September 1, 2005.....nothing seemed to happen. I STILL went ahead and went through with some rough withdrawals from the powerful opiates that I had been hooked to, plus some alcoholic withdrawals thrown in for good measure. But September 1, 2005 was my first day in my 13th Alcohol and Drug rehab center. Thirteen of them!!!! Some as long as a year long residency. But something happened differnetly this time. It has been almost 8 years ago, and I am STILL doing the things that I think that God expects of me. The days of laying drunk for weeks at a time are over. Shoving tuberculin, and diabetic syringes filled with some loathsome, self brewed concoction, (breaking down Morphine pills and Oxycontin pills) with water or whatever liquid was on hand.....I HAVE used stale beer as my 'water' for injection. But....all of that is gone. And i struggled with it for 30 years. In and out of rehabs. Stealing. Prison. Prison again. Before prison....State run Prison Boot Camp. My life, when looking back, seems totally unlivable!!!!!!! And yet...here I am.....on an Intense Christian discussion forum.....eight years later. Taking care of momma, and keeping her out of a nursing home.....I would NEVER EVER have done anything so selfless before Christ was asked to be a part of the mess that was my life. It brings tears to my eyes that he would take the time to help me, when it was so obvious that I was seemingly beyond ALL hope and help. EVERYONE....including my mother, sisters, brother, Pastors, homeless shelters in my area...where through with me. I had simply used them all up. Now I make donations to them. No, no no.....not intentionally tooting my horn here because what would be my reward??? A few kind words from a fellow human....and THAT would be it!!!! Nothing else. Nothing eternal. Rather, my point is...although I didn't FEEL anything come over me when I asked Christ to be part of my life, and to forgive me. I still felt just as crappy as the other guys who were there withdrawing. But when LOOKING BACK.....I am fully convinced that God was doing for me what I could NOT do for myself. Now, I gotta stop here, because I here momma talking and that means she needs me, or needs changed, or needs her meds. So I'll punch the POST button and just hope that I didn't confuse or mislead anyone.

[Charles Miles]

You will know a tree by its fruit. You started this long thread out with a question Kevin, and now I think the answer in it your fruit. I don`t know anything about your previous problems(they are none of my business) and God says He will remember them no more. I see you as an overcomer and a man on the correct path in your life, but that is not important. The important thing is how the Lord sees you.

You are a blessing to many of us,

Charlie

[Lori Smith]

Brother,

I can say that I bear witness in my spirit that you are a Christian. I've prayed and asked the Father to confirm it in your own heart. God loves you very much.

Lori

[Kenny]

when I gave my life to Jesus on September 1, 2005.....nothing seemed to happen. I STILL went ahead and went through with some rough withdrawals from the powerful opiates that I had been hooked to, plus some alcoholic withdrawals thrown in for good measure. But September 1, 2005 was my first day in my 13th Alcohol and Drug rehab center. Thirteen of them!!!! Some as long as a year long residency. But something happened differnetly this time. It has been almost 8 years ago, and I am STILL doing the things that I think that God expects of me. The days of laying drunk for weeks at a time are over. Shoving tuberculin, and diabetic syringes filled with some loathsome, self brewed concoction, (breaking down Morphine pills and Oxycontin pills) with water or whatever liquid was on hand.....I HAVE used stale beer as my 'water' for injection. But....all of that is gone.

Powerful testimony brother. I thank you for openly sharing that. Those are evidences of the changes God has made in you. The changes may have been gradual, but those were drastic changes.

2 Cor 5:17
If any man be in Christ he is a new creature, old things are passed away, behold all things are become new.

Praise be to God

[Kevin Blankenship]

I SO long to see all of you, if not here on the globe (in it's present form) than when we go to meet Jesus in the air!!!! And then, on to live with Him forever. All safe and sound and cozy, with our hearts all afire with a perfect love for Jesus and each other. Like Tozer's Daily Devotion today.....it is this HOPE.....that gives life it's zest. You all have been so greatly instrumental in helping me to keep my perspective where it should be. Knowing that we are loved, even delighted in!!!, by God is something that MUST be experienced to be appreciated. It is an awesomely tragic thing, that the ruler of this world has thrown up so many "side-shows" as to mis-direct the minds of the sons of the first Adam, for things eternal, to things that will perish. "Oh God, that I could burst into LIGHT today to help guide some poor soul out of his mesmerized state of loving 'things' and point him/her in the correct direction. Guide them by YOUR Spirit, Oh Lord!!!!!! In Jesus name, and as His power of atty. (so to speak/pray), I pray this. And please give me a heart for the lost and the most unlovable, and for those whom everyone else has given up. Use me Lord. I can put my toys aside gladly, for some serious work. For Your Glory, and to satisfy your Love. Amen

[Faithfullone]

Hello All,

I see that if anyone does the following, they will remain within the elect of God, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith." When we repent and put our trust in Jesus, we are born into the elect of God!

[Kenny]

Welcome to the forum Faithfulone

[Kevin Blankenship]

Yes......WELCOME!!!! Feel absolutely free to post more. Feel free to start some other threads or post some more in this one. Either way, we don't care where ya post....we are just glad that ya made it here. This is about as fine a group of Christians as I have had the pleasure of knowing. Sometimes we don't agree on every little point......but we love each other anyway. We don't care. We have come to realize that we humans are different. Different upbringing, different stations in life, different looks (thankfully....lol). But I can say this about these precious brothers and sisters in Christ.......they will care about you and listen to you. If they disagree with you, they'll tactfully tell you so, but in a gentle way. Our number one goal is to be Christ-like. Since we are His disciples. Oh....and we're not perfect. Yet. Well, maybe except for me. ........just kidding........