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Public Pronouncements of Foundations of the Christian Faith?


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#1 Candice

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Posted 26 May 2014 - 07:38 PM

I recently heard a preacher say, "Should we post the ten commandments?  Or, why not better?  Post John 3:16". 

 

I had to agree here.  We can post the law, and nothing is wrong with the law.  It is perfect.  It points us to the need to a savior as we are unable to keep it.  But, if millions of people have seen the law displayed (often in stone) for 200 plus years, has this helped the nation?

 

Would John 3:16 be better?  Why is this verse not posted.  Not posted anywhere I've seen in memory.

 

What do you think?

 


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#2 elizabethcog

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 04:03 AM

Perhaps the law points us to our need of help,then John 3;16 shows us how to get this help,both together maybe but if one then I see God's saving grace message for all to be the best choice(in this case) i have always known how broken and awful I am but I didn't know how to be saved 'till I met Jesus,and he used situations and lots of people saved and unsaved to show me Himself......


Jesus and Jesus alone saves=D

#3 Speilb

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 01:29 PM

The Ten Commandments relate to a system of law instituted by God as part of the foundation of law for a free people.  It was (and still could be) important for America in this regard as well.  John 3:16 may be the thesis statement of all of scripture but it doesn't relate so much to government or the rule of law. 



#4 chipped china

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 05:55 PM

I'm for posting things of God everywhere, especially through me. 


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#5 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:10 AM

I fully agree Candace.  Allow me too add this:  If I actually had a say in the matter........Public Courthouses, Schools, etc etc.   I would feel inclined to publish, or to chisel in stone, the verse:  "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."   

   Or, John 3:16. 

  Or Hebrews Chapter 11:6 : "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

   Yes, I would be "game" on several different scriptures being made public, or,  fixed in certain Public places.  I have actually wondered why taking down the Ten Commandments from thses places was such a bad thing.  After all, Jesus was/is the Effective Replacement of the Ten Commandments.  My feelings on a very good, and multi-faceted subject. But one that needn't get fellow sisters and brothers all stirred up and taking off their shoes and hurling them at each other. lol



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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:40 AM

Though not proven, it is believe St. Francis of Assisi said the following, "Always remember to preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words"

 

I think the consideration of words carved in stone are a poor example of transformed lives. A heart impacted by the Love of Jesus will likely impact an individual more than anything carved anywhere for a passerby to see. The controversy of the commandments being added or removed are a great chance to relate one on one with people that have not yet experienced the changed heart.



#7 Speilb

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:53 AM

I disagree with the idea that "Jesus was/is the Effective Replacement of the Ten Commandments."

 

Jesus was not a replacement he was the fulfillment.  We were powerless to keep the commands.  But Christ not only freed us from the consequences of sin but from sin itself and its power over us.  This doesn't mean we are perfect but it means we can choose good over evil.  In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus was very clear.     

 

Matthew 5:17“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

From there he goes on to systematically show how the people were keeping the letter of the law in many areas but trampling on the heart of the law (God's heart). 

 

I love the law of God.  I delight in it.  Because I see God's goodness in it (and my failure).  The law gives me, His Child, an opportunity to be more like him and for that I am eternally grateful. 

 

After Pentecost what did we see from the Disciples?  Before Pentecost a good word to describe them might be "human".  After Pentecost they became something much more they were "Christ-like".  Previously they knew the law and tried to follow it but failed often.  After Pentecost through the Spirit they lived in accordance with the heart of the law much more effectively.  This wasn't because of a preoccupation with the law.  Rather it was how the Holy Spirit expressed Himself through them.  The law became written on their hearts; it was no longer just external rules but now an internal drive. 

 

I don't believe in the whole idea of a Christian Nation in this current age.  I believe only people can be Christian.  I think we are in some ways still cleaning up the mess of the Roman Empire becoming "christian".   If we took the New Testament to be a formula for governance what would that look like?  Would the Murder's all walk with some words on forgiveness and grace?  Would we turn the other cheek on 9-11?  Would we say the embezzler "let him who is without sin cast the first stone and then let them go to embezzle?  Would a judge advise the courtroom that all sins are equal in God's eyes and therefore they cannot look differently on pedophilia then the gluttony of a second helping of bread-pudding?  The New Testament was written for The Church not for governments.  The Old Testament said much on how a nation can be successfully led. 

 

I think America got it right in recognizing the value of the 10 Commandments as a system of national law. I think we also got it right in keeping John 3:16 out of our courtrooms and capital buildings.  Christians are responsible for getting the Gospel out.  The government is not.  We are blessed to be in a country where we can proclaim John 3:16 without consequence.  I think we are better off without their help or any other form of outsourcing. 


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#8 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 09:00 AM

SpeilB......semantics. I was typing something. Thinking about something else. Foolish of me, given the gravity of the converstion. You are exactly correct. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law.  

    I really cannot believe that I got sucked into this:  Ten Commmandments on the courthouse, prayer in schools, stuff. I have actually been involved in conversations with people about this very thing.  Now whether those people saw the Love of Jesus in me due to His Love impacting my heart.......I really don't know.

    As there are times, whether due to depression or some other physiological anomaly (within my person) when I doubt.  Now, whether that puts me in the company of the damned, I don't know. I certainly hope not. I mean...... I REALLLY hope not.  But then, there are times when I can easily find an occasion in a conversation to begin to speak about the Love of God or the Love of Jesus....depending on how I word it....and do so with great conviction that seems to come from somewhere deep within.

   But Marvin is absolutely spot on (as they say) about a person who has been deeply touched/affected by a revealtion of the Love of Jesus. I keep looking.



#9 Speilb

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:51 PM

I understand the semantics thing and also not saying things as intended; I do that as well.  I see a lot of confusion in South Louisiana on the subject of grace with people believing that being under grace means they can continue to live as enemies of God and continue in friendship to the world (and it breaks my heart).  There are many here who believe the Ten Commandments and even the Sermon on the Mount are outdated and useful only for history lessons.  I understand that this is not you, but being around this theology makes me quick to say my position based on what I have experienced and seen.  I was even at a Christian Conference recently and observed the Ten Commandments being treated with contempt (symbolizing them being broken on stage as a positive thing (again breaking my heart)).  Anyway, please know that I don't express disagreement on issues with motives of hurting anyone or demeaning anyone or causing people to question their faith it is just that I am passionate about Biblical Truth.  Furthermore I have been in positions where direct talk was needed (counseling, addictions recovery, battered women, batterers, ect),.  Unfortunately, while in my counseling experience and other such places I have been able to talk directly while still communicating love and care it is an art I evidently haven't figured out how to do in writing.   


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#10 robo328

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 07:37 PM

From C.H. Spurgeon:

God does more than that for his people. When he writes his law in our heart, he makes us to approve it. An ungodly man wishes to alter God's law. "There," says he, "I do not like that command, 'Thou shalt not steal,' I should like to be a little bit of a trickster." Another says, "I do not like that purity of which the minister spoke just now, I should like to indulge myself a little. Am I to have no pleasure?" But when the law of the Lord is written in his heart, the man says, "The law is right." He would not alter it if he could; there is nothing that he hates more than the lowering of the tone of the law, for he does not want a lax morality. "Oh, no!" says he, "let us have the highest form of righteousness that can be, and may God help me to live up to it!"

 

Or Isaiah 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? 2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word 

 

I think if we made ourselves, the dwelling place for his word, instead of plaques, and granite, it will make a bigger difference.


"In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength" -Isaiah 30:15

#11 robo328

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:02 PM

Here's an interesting link, talking about the same subject

http://www.mondaymin...-trust-oh-yeah/

 

Teddy Roosevelt wanted to have 'In God We Trust' taken off of our currency-From the link:

“It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in buildings such as those at West Point and Annapolis – in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements.”


"In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength" -Isaiah 30:15

#12 Charles Miles

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 07:47 AM

God`s law has been, is, and will always be God`s law, and is perfect in its directions.  There has never been anything wrong with God`s law and there never will be anything wrong with God`s law.....the is something wrong with man.  Sin has made the following of God`s law impossible for man, so the main thing the law did was to point out just how sinful we are.  Jesus didn`t change the law, he simply followed it correctly, perfectly, and was the example of how a man, filled with God, can actually do what the law said to do.  

 

I would lke to think there could be a christian nation in actuality, but it would be very, very difficult in today`s world.  Therein lies the problem.....today`s world.  I think it may have been George Washington who said that a republic/democracy cannot funtion without a religious(christian) population who will abide by the governmental authority.  That would suppose that the government, the elected officials, and the governed people are subject to a higher power and live their lives accordingly.  Houston...we have a problem!

 

With an indwelling Holy Spirit, we know what is right and what is wrong.  There may be finer points of US law that we might not understand, but God has promised that He would write His laws on our hearts, so that we will all know Him...He will be our God and we will be His people.  Now, take those type people and form them into a nation and see what you have. Theocracy?  Not really...you would have a nation of people who would always try to do the right thing and to always please God by obedience to His law....as best they could.   "One nation under God"  oh, let`s see, where have I heard that before?  BTW, there is NO comma between NATION and UNDER......it is supposed to be the statement of a fact.  Sadly it seems to be incorrectv for today.

 

How can we become....One Nation Under God?

 

Charlie



#13 radar

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 09:45 AM

Good stuff here! Same topic that my Pastor preached on Sunday. No coincidences in the Kingdom!

 

Shalom,

chris


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#14 Kate Curry

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 11:51 AM

Post it where?    Too little too late is what I say.



#15 radar

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 08:24 AM

Kate, I am a bit confused about what you have said. So the devil does not gain an advantage over me with the confusion, please help me to understand your reply. My "thorn in the flesh" so to speak is that some times I have cognitive impairment due to illness and fail to understand some things that would be clear to others. Thanks and have a blessed day!

 

Shalom,

chris


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#16 Kate Curry

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 12:34 PM

It's not you, Radar, it's my cryptic style -- which is really laziness sometimes.   All I meant was I can't see where either John 3:16 or The Ten Commandments would be allowed in public arenas.    As for "too little too late"  I mean the war on Christians and the Holy War of Muslims against all other religions has escalated exponentially over the past six years.   Intensifying these conditions is the lack of Christian education and discipline in our churches (and I couldn't say how long that has been deteriorating) and the existence of so many Christian churches which are more social clubs and/or service clubs than places of worship and fellowship.  I would also refer back to Chris's post on "Do People Really Care?".    Also there is a failure of leadership and courage from pulpits.    We aren't safe and we can't play it safe anymore.   Well. . . .we CAN, but is that obedience to the Lord?  "Your safety lay in obedience."   (That's scripture, but I don't remember where -OT)

 

Years ago I had a dream.   I was standing in a church steeple and looking out across green fields, then I saw the stones of the church falling.   I raced down the stairs to the sanctuary where a fat old man was snoring in a pew.   I shook him and cried, "The Church is falling, the Church is falling," but he wouldn't wake up.   So I left him there and ran out the door.    I thought it was prophetic then and I think it's happening now.   But there will be a remnant.  

 

Are you sorry you asked?  :wacko:


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#17 radar

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:36 AM

My goodness NO! I am happy that I did ask and happy you expounded on your answer Kate. The reason the world (those who do not know Jesus) won't allow the commandments are if they acknowledge that they have a set of moral principles to follow, it would destroy their idolatrous gods, and then god could not be made in THEIR image. You know, even the saved people have a tendency to pick and choose scripture to fit their God view while ignoring the ones that are too costly for them to obey, hence sometimes we deceive ourselves by twisting scripture to fit our own view. Take John 3:16, even the world loves that scripture and I think that is the one scripture that they like the best because it reflects the length, breadth, and depth of God's love. So, they take just that one and build their own theology around it because God is Love, and most everybody wants love. But they forget or wink at the fact that they need to read all the scriptures to get a better understanding of who God really is and what He requires from us. That requirement that brings death is the law, most notably given as the Ten Commandments, not ten suggestions. So, If the world were to acknowledge that the commandments must be obeyed since they are found in the bible and refer to God, then they know immediately they are sinners and they do not know that the remedy lies with Jesus the Christ. So, they ignore, make excuses, deceive themselves, or discount God altogether because then they know deep inside that they would be required to obey because there is a God and this is His standard which they know full well they have not kept nor can keep. Then pride and rebellion enter in because man does not want to give up lordship and control to his life. For ten years I worked at a college as a security officer. When I would be making my rounds to open up the buildings, I had a pocketful of tracts stating the ten commandments and posted them every morning on the billboards. We are at a place of higher education and after all, what is higher than the knowledge of God? They would take them down and I would come back the next morning and post them again. After three months they quit taking them down. This country wants to systematically destroy any reference to Jehovah and his son, Yashua because they hate Him, the apostasy is such that there can be no public display because when they see it, it provokes them to anger. Funny thing, I remember watching a movie that John Wayne was in called operation pacific, made in 1951. In the movie,  Wayne is a officer on a ship in which many of his crew members were killed. So, his conscious is bothering him and he decides that he would go to the chapel where the memorial service is being held. He is mildly surprised when he sees his whole crew there. In a poignant moment, he goes to the pulpit and starts to pray and in this prayer, he clearly states that it is in Jesus' name. I started thinking how far we have fallen away from God in this country. There was a time that even the pagan and heathens had a outward show of public respect, and that was not lost on Hollywood, and being a business, they wanted to appeal to that large segment of the public who showed respect for the name of Jesus. These days Jesus is a curse word if he is mentioned at all in the entertainment arena, movies are made with the intent of disrespecting and rebelling against that Name because of what it represents. Yes, there are some movies made that glorify God along with some that give a perverted view of God under good intentions. I have always wondered if God put the idea of making the movie, the passion of the Christ in Mel Gibson's mind in order to show that God is God and he can get His word out using even the evil people to do i. I noticed that CNN was discussing the movie and brought up an open bible with the words easily read on the TV screen. I had to laugh to myself that God could use a media that in essence hates him and get his "advertisement" of the word without cost and viewed by millions in the public arena.

 

As far as safety lay in obedience, the closest thing I could find in the bible is Psalms 119 "Keep me from disobeying your commandments. I keep your law in my heart,so that I will not sin against you." (10-11,BBE).

 
If I have a partial scripture reference and do not know where to find it, I use our wonderful technology and search the internet, which will give me the complete verse and where it can be found at. As an added bonus, I can read other peoples, sermons and commentaries about that. But a word of caution, If you do not have a full grounding in the word of God, some sites that mimic authentic Christianity such as LDS and others, have teachings that may appear with some truth but a half truth is a whole lie, and can be dangerous to your spirit man, like cigarettes are to your body, the temple of God.
 
Ironic about the dream you had. It did happen to me recently. My old fellowship was getting away of from their first Love, and focusing on works and doing evil things to justify their actions. When I approached elders with my concerns and scriptural warning, in the Spirit of Love and Compassion, they acted as though they were asleep to the peril by not wanting to involve themselves to correct the errors. So I in essence, had to leave them there and "run out the door" so to speak to another fellowship. I am beginning to realize that just as the proverbial frog, who put in a pot on the stove, won't jump out of the pot when the heat is slowly turned up, and eventually that lack of action results in his demise. I understand that the insidiousness of sin and deception can start out slowly and I have found I can now see the danger was occurring at my old fellowship long before I woke up and realized how far and how long I had accommodated that error, being deceived.
 
Indeed, there is always a remnant, just like this forum.
 
I love when thought provoking posts are made, and sorry for my prolixity, but being overly analytical, I am somewhat verbose in my answers because I want to make my thoughts known as clearly as possible. I do appreciate everyone's patience in suffering me here because of that.
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me. I too, am constantly reminded when I give cryptic answers without realizing it. Due to my thorn in the flesh mental cognitive issues, I am constantly reminded that I know what I am thinking, but others do not when I speak cryptically. I do welcome that constructive criticism as it helps me cope with my affliction. I most certainly write better than I speak!
 
In His service,
chris

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#18 Kate Curry

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:41 AM

I was thinking of Isaiah 30:15 -- which actually says repentance not obedience.   I must mentally translate that to obedience since that verse usually pierces me when I'm not obeying real well.

 

Your post was interesting to read, Radar.   It seems to me there is a deficit of shepherding in churches, but that may be because we have moved around the country so much and haven't been established members of the churches we attended.   There have been a couple of times where the pastor has dropped in (unannounced), but conversation never turned to our beliefs or where we were spiritually.   Actually it felt as though we were being "vetted" for social acceptability more than anything.   I'm an idealist and entirely too critical so I'm never quite sure it isn't just me.

 

I'm glad you found a new church home.


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