15 replies to this topic

[Candice]

I'm wondering about spiritual gifts and the doctrine that determines that the spiritual gifts were for the original church (Pentecost) and not for today.

Is this belief tantamount to blasphemy? Now, I don't want to start a riot, but if one does not believe in the gifts of God's Holy Spirit, then is there a lack of belief in His Spirit at all? For what other purposes does the Spirit serve for all of us who believe in Christ and the Trinity doctrine to minister at all, even to ourselves as in empowerment by His Spirit?

My friend (yup, same one as before) insists that the church we most commonly attend to is practicing blasphemy because of a plaque on their foyer wall that states that "we do not believe in the gifts of the Spirit in this age" (basically). Again, she insists that our being part of this church is next to blasphemy and that we will be judged for this decision which, she insists, my husband cannot know the Lord if he allows us to go there. I let my husband decide on a weekly basis where we go that Sunday. I believe he is the priest of our home, and it is my place to keep under my husband's authority. Sometimes we go to a very small (20 people tops) Calvary Chapel which really isn't a church since there is just the pastor and no elders and, certainly, no accountability. Even if I agreed with my friend, which maybe I would if it were really put to me by God's Holy Spirit in complete conviction, I would say something. But, I sense that I should be silent about it.

Skipping and paying no attention to what my friend says, what do you all believe, based on scripture and observance.

I'm sad, feeling oppressed, depressed and deeply concerned. I'm so easily influenced by others' rebuking me. Maybe this friend, who will be moving out-of-state soon anyway, is toxic?

I'm 56 years old, and you'd think I'd be more able to depend on God's Spirit to not allow this stuff to bother me, but it does.

Love your input. Even if you agree or disagree.

I want, as Tozer says, all God has for me. I am concerned about this doctrine - cessation, dispensational beliefs and doctrines. But, I am weary of all of this back and forth and lack of unity with in the church.

[Candice]

Oh, I forgot to add the scripture verse that applies to my topic...

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men". Matthew 12:31

This verse is just a launching point. Others may add their own scripture references to support their point of view.

[ADVRider]

Candice,

This is an interesting one. I wonder if your friend thinks the church is blasphemous because of the plaque or because they just don't believe in the gifts for today? I wonder because lots of churches don't believe in the gifts for today. Are they all blasphemous? I don't know. I visited a church a long time ago where they said it was demonic if you spoke in tongues.

Me and a friend were discussing Jesus' passage on blasphemy against the Holy Spirit on Sunday. No conclusion because we got sidetracked. Anyway, I am not sure about the idea of being judged by God simply for attending; it sounds a bit legalistic to me. I don't know your friend or her background, but I think the Lord is looking a little deeper maybe.

"Now, I don't want to start a riot, but if one does not believe in the gifts of God's Holy Spirit, then is there a lack of belief in His Spirit at all? For what other purposes does the Spirit serve for all of us who believe in Christ and the Trinity doctrine to minister at all, even to ourselves as in empowerment by His Spirit?"

I am not cessationist but lots of Christians are. I think those who are cessationist certainly miss the opportunity for great blessing through the body of Christ. Because what is often not understood about the Holy Spirit is that when He manifests Himself to a person through a gift or grace flowing through another person, it is an expression of intimacy. It is a revealing of His person, His nature, etc. For example, who would not want to be healed of a disease or illness via the gift of healing that flowed through another member of the body, or even directly from the Holy Spirit Himself? We read of the joy in the NT when Jesus touched a person or they were delivered. Why would it be any different today? Jesus is the same; He just sent the Spirit to do the work through His body that He himself did when He was here in person. The cessationist bascially says that Jesus can only save souls now in this age; He cannot do anything else that He did before because He is not here. But the answer is: the Holy spirit is here. And isn't the Holy Spirit even needed for one's salvation as well? Yes, of course. So there is much intimacy and the knowledge of Him that can be forfeited because a person does not believe. Many Christians do not know this side of things and the deep relationship they can have through the Holy Spirit. Often, He is seen as not much more than a force or a deeply misunderstood (and neglected) part of the Godhead. If that is how we see the Holy Spirit, then all we are left with is head knowledge because we don't believe God can still "act." I am not sure (because I don't know the heart) there is no belief in the Holy Spririt for these Christians, as much as it would be defining what that belief looks like. I think on a practical level, their belief could be nil or of very little reality when you press it. Many do not know God as a person who is alive today and who wants to have a real relationship. But God still loves each one, no matter. I have found it is best to share my stories (testimonies) of the things God has done for me rather than discuss doctrine. But only those open will hear. Even Jesus was amazed at those in Nazareth.

About that 20 some-odd group at the local Calvary Chapel. Psst! Ya might not want to tell them they are not a church.

[radar]

Candice, You have asked, What do we believe based on scripture and observance.


1 Corinthians 12

New International Version (NIV)

Concerning Spiritual Gifts

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. ² You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. ³ Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
⁴ There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. ⁵ There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. ⁶ There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
⁷ Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ⁸ To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, ⁹ to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, ¹⁰ to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,^[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.^{[b] 11} All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
Unity and Diversity in the Body

¹² Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. ¹³ For we were all baptized by^[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. ¹⁴ Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
¹⁵ Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. ¹⁶ And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. ¹⁷ If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? ¹⁸ But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. ¹⁹ If they were all one part, where would the body be? ²⁰ As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
²¹ The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” ²² On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, ²³ and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, ²⁴ while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, ²⁵ so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. ²⁶ If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
²⁷ Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. ²⁸ And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. ²⁹ Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? ³⁰ Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues^[d]? Do all interpret? ³¹ Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
Love Is Indispensable

And yet I will show you the most excellent way.



1 Corinthians 14

New International Version (NIV)
Intelligibility in Worship

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. ² For anyone who speaks in a tongue^[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. ³ But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. ⁴ Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. ⁵ I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,^[b] but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,^[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
⁶ Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? ⁷ Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? ⁸ Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? ⁹ So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. ¹⁰ Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. ¹¹ If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. ¹² So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
¹³ For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. ¹⁴ For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. ¹⁵ So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. ¹⁶ Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,^[d] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? ¹⁷ You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
¹⁸ I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. ¹⁹ But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
²⁰ Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. ²¹ In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”^[e]
22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. ²³ So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? ²⁴ But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, ²⁵ as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
Good Order in Worship

²⁶ What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. ²⁷ If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. ²⁸ If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.
²⁹ Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. ³⁰ And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. ³¹ For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. ³² The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. ³³ For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
³⁴ Women^[f] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. ³⁵ If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.^[g]
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? ³⁷ If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. ³⁸ But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored.^[h]
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. ⁴⁰ But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.


The above covers the scripture, and clearly shows no cessation of the gifts of the Spirit as stated: Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (He doesn't change His mind or take a gift back again).
Numbers 23:19, 20 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it."

The observance of the gifts of the Spirit I can attest to. Miraculous powers. In 1997 when I first came to saving faith, I witnessed a man get hit by an automobile. As he lay in the street, there was a nurse who was off duty, and she went to the man and checked him for vital signs and pronounced him dead. I pulled out my Bible with all the faith and zeal a new convert has, and implored all the bystanders to pray, and I laid my hand on the man praying for God to revive him. I kept praying until the ambulance arrived and the Emt asked me to step aside. They also confirmed he was dead. Then a miracle happened, The man coughed up a wad of blood and was alive! The ambulance rushed him away and I was thunderstruck at what just happened. I went on to my evening church service and did not say a word to anyone because who was going to believe that? After the church service one of the men there needed to go to the hospital to get his bandage changed from being bit by a brown recluse spider and he had no way to get there. So I offer to take him. While we were walking into the Emergency room, the man who was hit by the car is leaving the hospital and him and his brother were rejoicing about the fact that he had been dead and was now alive. I felt a great unction in my spirit to approach this man. I told him that I was on the street when he was hit and pronounced dead, and that I was praying for his recovery. I told him that Jesus gave him his life back and now Jesus was wanting him to give his life to Him. So we knelt down in the parking lot and prayed and this man and his brother accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord. This was the first two people that God had me lead to Him. So we have two miracles, Salvation by the Holy Spirit just as John indicated in his answer, and the reviving of the dead, which is also a gift of healing.

Since that time I have witnessed and participated in numerous healings, prophecy, and exorcism. In 1996 I had never seen a demon manifest before and at the time was not fully convinced of God and His miracles. When I seen a woman I had known for a few weeks thrown to the floor during praise and worship in what I thought was an
epileptic fit, I realized that there was more to it than that when the demon starting talking to the Pastor and the elders who were using the Word of God and His authority to bind and cast out the demon. It was a twenty minute battle, but the demon was cast out. So I thought, well, If there was a demon, then there must be a God because the power of God has just cast out the devil. So Satan messed up that day as I was made a true beleiver after that. Since then I have noted many demons cast out of men, women, and in one case, a very young child! I would make a strong case on my observations that indeed the gifts of the Spirit are still in action today.

As far as blasphemy of the Spirit, I like what John Gill's exposition says in Matt 12:32 "it shall not be forgiven him: not because the Holy Ghost is greater than Christ; or for want of efficacy in the blood of Christ; or because God cannot pardon it; but because such persons wilfully, maliciously, and obstinately oppose the Spirit of God, without whom there can be no application of pardon made; and remain in hardness of heart, are given up to a reprobate mind, and die in impenitence and unbelief, and so there is no forgiveness for them, " So, If you are concerned that you may have possibly commited the unpardonable sin, then that concern shows you haven't because you have not been given over to a reprobate mind of unbelief. If you believe that the gifts of the Spirit are not for this age, and happen to be wrong, you won't lose your salvation because Jesus stated that all manner of blasphemy other than the Holy Ghost can be forgiven. If you reject the leading of the Holy Spirit to repentance as John stated in his observation, then you have blasphemed the work of the Holy Spirit to repent and die in unbelief. At least that is the way I understand it. I agree with John that your friend has a bit of a leagalistic view on this matter and it has been a source of bondage to you. Hope that this helps alleviate the loss of peace and discouragement. This scripture is one of the devil's favorite snares in destroying a believer's confidence in thier eternal security. I am sure your friend means well but I sometimes believes she does err, or as Paul would put it, she has a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge (Rom 10:2). And for thinking that being a mature meat eating Christian you should know God's Spirit should be able to keep this from bothering you, that is why you have the brothers and sisters in Christ, or His body, who are spirit filled and prophecize or in New Testament terms, exhort and encourage via the prophetic gift as outlined in 1 Corinthians for the edifying of believers. So in a sense the use of the gifting of the Spirit has been used to help answer some of your concerns!

Blessings,
Radar

[Ginger]

Praising God for His Spirit working in us and through us. O thank you Lord Jesus for all that You do to comfort Your body... each cell of Your body .... Praising God for the Scriptures and giving thanks for Radar and John and Candice ... The God of all comfort... Well, Candice, I'm 70 and it's still easy for me to become affected by unkindness and things that surely seem emotionally and spiritually toxic. It is not easy to be affected by remarks at times being quiet is all a person can do. Reckon it comes to mind to pray for the person you've shared that is saying things in an authoritative manner. O to be encouraging and loving and yes, to speak the truth in love showing what may be done in a different way... Surely will pray for the person you've shared about and thank God for the people who post and share the love of God and His Word. I don't mean to be unkind about anyone and only say that it's easier to pray for some folks than to be hearing them put down other folks ... What about God looking on the heart? Ya know, when Samuel went to anoint David and kept saying that's not the one until he was with David? I've not been doing very well and so if things sound disconnected or whatever may the Holy Spirit help ya cipher... God bless you and thank you for sharing ... Thanking Our Father for tender mercies and grace that are HIs gifts to us moment by moment. Don't know how the friend spoken of can be so harsh... Praying in the Spirit (tongues) to keep my mind from being unkind... Don't know much just fail a lot and feel feeble too.. So very grateful for the But God verses and the nudge of the Holy Spirit to only believe, ... ((((((((((Candice))))))))))... Consider yeself hugged Candice...this is a pitiful writing and for now it's just the best I can muster... Praising God ... and just gonna let this conglomeration be okay to post. Love and Prayers, Ginger

[Charles Miles]

Candice,

First, I don`t think attending a worship service where that sign is posted is blasphemy. When I run up on this doctrine in a church or group, it is confusing to me and really sad. I have asked people with this doctrine to show me the scripture where gifts are not for today as well as the scripture that says we are not to desire and ask for these gifts. Seems to me that this particular doctrine supposes that miracles are no longer done by the Lord, so we should just not ask for any. If one does not believe in gifts and miracles, why then do we pray? I pray for the sick, the well, my family(including those on this forum), my church, my country, the lost, the saved, and I pray for me. Did the prayers of those here last week help me? You bet they did!!! I would have to ask some of these people why they pray if they think these gifts and miracles stopped after the first century church. ANY asnswer to prayer is a --------------? I do agree with John that Holy Spirit is the most misunderstood of the Godhead, but that does not mean we are to ignore him, it means that we need to try to understand him to a fuller degree. He is just as much God as the Father and Son. To limit the works of Holy Spirit is to deny his divinity and power, and that is just not a doctrine that is well thought out in my opinion. Do I understand the works of the Spirit always? Not at all. God seems to do His work through the spirit in this day, just as Jesus said would happen. So do we now say to one another that the Spirit has only limited power, limited love, limited grace, or limited anything? I think not. Any congregation that does not believe in the power of Holy Spirit just simply will not see any, because He will leave their midst without any fanfare or even much notice. After that, the church there is dead.
Blasphemy? I don1t think so, but I don`t know. In my opinion(which is of no importance in this matter) it is ignorance of who God is and what He said He would do for us. My opinion doesn`t matter, but God`s opinion does matter, and that should be sought after in this matter.

In Christ,

Charlie

[Lori Smith]

Candice,

There are great answers with Scriptural backup to your question. I echo the others, I don't think it's blasphemy to attend your church; you'll simply miss out on the presence and added intimacy the Holy Spirit brings to those who embrace Him. I attend a university that does not believe the gifts are for today; it hinders me with online discussions because I'm not often understood by those who do not have the added grace of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, we are united (for the most part, aside from a new liberalism creeping in to some of the classes) on Scripture. Certainly, we agree on John 3:16 which is foundational for all of us. Maybe you should limit having these types of discussions with your friend. It sounds like she's having a bad affect on you.

I will also add that I know some Spirit-filled Christians who purposely attend non-Spirit-filled churches because they say God sent them there for whatever reason.

Shalom (I do love all things Jewish ),
Lori

[Julie Daube]

Any congregation that does not believe in the power of Holy Spirit just simply will not see any, because He will leave their midst without any fanfare or even much notice. After that, the church there is dead.
Blasphemy? I don1t think so, but I don`t know. In my opinion(which is of no importance in this matter) it is ignorance of who God is and what He said He would do for us. My opinion doesn`t matter, but God`s opinion does matter, and that should be sought after in this matter.

Well said, Charlie! I also thought that John and Radar's responses were excellent.

There is little I can add to this discussion, but I will say this: believing that the spiritual gifts are not for today may not be blasphemy, but it is definitely a serious error. Nonetheless, God's people can be seriously mistaken about a lot of things and still be saved and in a right relationship with Him. We are saved on the basis of our faith in what Jesus did on the cross, not because of what we believe about the gifts of the Spirit. Maybe that's the bottom line here. Still, believers who reject the ministry of the Holy Spirit will miss out on a whole lot of what God has for them.

[Candice]

I have three questions to see below. These are questions of my own asking....

I appreciate each and every response here, and all have great points to be made. I definitely (and have never believed otherwise) that the gifts of the Spirit are ours today, yesterday and tomorrow. I don't believe its wrong for the church to have a sign that tells those interested enough to read it that this is their belief on this doctrine. At least they're honest. The problem is with the belief, and I asked the pastor about it months ago, and he was cautious in saying that "our church statement is...." (basically,) and it was as if he did not believe it, but had to say it that way. I've seen this before on other matters. Like when you ask a Navy Seal something they cannot divulge and they give that standard, pat answer that they've basically memorized so as not to reveal anything they aren't supposed to say!

"...holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these." Tim. 3:5

I guess one could look at this verse (which if you read the verses before and after this one, would not seem to really apply) to the situation at our church if you look at it like gross debauchery. However, to me, with such a lack of belief in the Spirit's gifts, there's also a resultant denial of power of the word of God, His Spirit to change lives and this is why this may be the response in 2 Tim. 3. There was no power over sin. No power for ministry. No Hope. I believe that the lack of belief in the Holy Spirit may have had something to do with this.

So,
1) If there's a modification of the Spirit's power - isn't that blasphemy??
2) I mean, aren't we believing in a different spirit??

And 2 Tim. 3:7 reads:

"...always learning and never able to come to the [fn]knowledge of the truth."

3) If you deny the Spirit's power, i.e. in gifts, then can you come to the knowledge of the truth??

I get discouraged to see the sort of funeral home of a church we most frequently attend. To me, it is obvious. It will be a blessing to move one day in a few years (possibly) and find a town with a church. OR, is this too late for the church at-large. Many believe this is the last generation.

[Candice]

Candice,

. ....I visited a church a long time ago where they said it was demonic if you spoke in tongues.


...About that 20 some-odd group at the local Calvary Chapel. Psst! Ya might not want to tell them they are not a church.

John,
We went to a church that believes that tongues is demonic...we left! They also did not believe in the gifts of the Spirit.

I believe that the small Calvary Chapel certainly is a church. However, I should have been more careful how I wrote this. Calvary Chapel has what they call "Calvary Chapel Distinctives" or just their bent on scripture, which to me is the best I've seen, as well as Alliance. However, this particular church does not fit those distinctives in their governance, i.e. no elders, etc. If they are Calvary Chapel, they are to officially follow those distinctives. Simply a "structural" thing. But, the pastor is definitely on fire for Christ and knows the Lord intimately - to be sure!

[Kevin Blankenship]

I just woke up. It ia 2:30 am. I'll do my best at remembering Tozer's words concerning this very thing. Something to the effect of: "The day that the Church started teaching that 'salvation is ALL there is'......and that there is no need for any further seeking of God's grace, or any further need of the Christian to pursue a deeper experience with God....because he's been saved, he 'accepted' Jesus, and that is ALL THERE IS........is the day that the worst possible death blow was dealt to the 'church of Christ' (not the Thomas Cambell bunch, they are DEFINITELY cessationist). In other words, and in case I missed Tozer;s gist by not quoting him correctly, his point is: When they started teaching this cessationist stuff, it dealt a very harmful blow to Christ's church, because the inform the new convert: "Well, there ya go brother/sister!!! You accepted Jesus!!! You are saved!!! There is absolutely no need to seek anymore of God, because you got everything God is gonna give you when you repeated the 'prayer of salvation' with the pastor this morning."
Tozer goes on to chide them rigorously in a way that only he can. He was a man who had had a second work of grace. He openly declared that he had been saved, and then later on, been baptized in the Holy Spirit. The only issue that Tozer had a problem with were the churches who taught/teach that the "initial evidence of being Baptized by/with the Holy Spirit is Speaking in Tongues...ONLY. He said that he didn't go so far as that,,,,,,,and that he had never spoken in Tongues, but eagerly desired the greater gift of prophecy. (remember, I am half asleep, and working from memory) I also realize that the Word of God is the final authority but both groups CLAIM to have scripture supporting their positions. Just like the frozen chos.....excuse me....the Calvinist.....and the Armenians
EDIT: It is now 5 am and I didn't go back to sleep. I layed on the couch and watched an old Bette Davis movie (I'm fairly sure that it didn't taint my spirit) called The Nanny. I thought for sure that I'd bo back to sleep. But alas, I am perking coffee, toasting toast, and boiling two eggs. I can truly say now that I'm not a young man anmore. Back to to this good thread that needs talking about. I was being lighthearted about the Calvinist vs Armenian thing. Please don't take it to heart as I know that there are those in both camps, and in the middle, on this forum. I love you all. Just trying to keep the mood light and I hope that I didnt hurt any feelings in the process.

The word "limited" was used in a post or two above mine and I instantly thought: Preach it brother.....and throw in "Limited Atonement" while your at it!!!!! I have read the Bible through and through several times and can completely fail to see how anyone can think that Christ only died for a limited amount of persons. Back on subject Kevin. Or back to bed, is more like it. I'll sleep on it. I will make my position clear: I VERY MUCH believe in God's second work of grace upon the seriously seeking saint. (did I just alliterate that after knocking alliterated sermons the other day?) I also believe that a New Testament church in this day and age of widespread immorality is the only kind of church that will prevail against the gates of hell. They needed the gifts of the Spirit in the first century.....how much more we need them now with all the lovelessness, and wickedness, and overall decline in morality that is so prevalent today. Christ loves the church like a man loves his wife, and even his own body. With a very powerful intimacy that will afford all of heaven's resources to keep her standing on her feet and raising HIGH the Banner of God in this day when Evil seeks the attention of mankind more and more. If EVER we needed a fresh Baptism in the Spirit.....it is NOW!!!!!! Jesus promised his disciples...and not just the twelve..apostles: "I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS!!! When I leave, I will send the Comforter..."

[Big John]

Hi y'all!

I have to say, I do enjoy this forum. Anyway, it sounds to me like your friend suffers from a common malady that most of us go thru at some point or other in our walk with God. I know that I have certainly looked down my nose at one time or other because I KNEW THE WAY, and I was going to darn well walk in it, if if YOU didn't! ROFL!! Hey, I get the honest concern about not wanting to be in error and all that but I really don't think God is quite so tough a taskmaster as all that. But I have learned to appreciate what there is in another christians walk that is alive and real. That is what I look for! The real kernel of life that is the signature of what I like to call a seeker!

I mentioned before that I really appreciate church history and one of the reasons I do is that many of the movements or denominations or whatever came about as the result of someone searching to know or understand more about God. It may have been a small thing but it was something that got somebody excited enough to want to share with others about. And maybe it wasn't the end all that they thought it was. But it was a heavenly treasure that God had shown THEM, He had taken the time to open their eyes to something they had never seen before and WOW! Talk about the pearl of great price!!

Just to use an easy and obvious example. How do you think Martin Luther had to feel when he finally had the unmitigated gall to post his thesis' on the Wittehburg chapell door. He had been a miserable, condemned man who went into monkhood in an effort to relieve the guilt and misery of his damned soul. It was what he had been taught by the church of his day. He was a man most miserable but he sought for relief. And he eventually found access to a bible and God started speaking to him thru it. But what he was hearing God saying and what he was seeing in the Word were at such odds with the teaching of the day that he had to do something. His journey to get to that point took many years of sweat, blood and tears but he finally made a breakthru that changed the entire christian world!

So what am I trying to say? Everyone we know is where they are in their walk with God. They only have the understanding that they have and you and I only have what we have. And even more crucial, neither you nor I can see into anyone elses heart. Sheesh, I have a hard enough time trying to discern my own heart at times(ok, maybe most of the time). And we as human beings are mostly kind of dumb. We have a little piece of the puzzle cause we have the bible and we graciously have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach us. But we are only dealing with our own finite minds to try to put this all together and I frankly think we mess it up a lot. And the plan was concocted by someone with a pretty big intellect (uh, read infinite) and with intent far beyond our scope, etc, etc.

Your friend calls it blasphemy to go to that church. Well, it may be true for her in her own understanding. But in the bigger picture it sounds more like you have very limited choices of where to go to worship. You al least try to go to have some kind of fellowship (sort of, I guess, lol). And I suspect that not all of them believe in no gifts for today. If they do God bless them. Not my job to change them. I'll leave that up to God. And if they would ask me I wuld tell what I believe, with diplomacy, and try not to break fellowship.

I feel like I am starting to ramble. So I'll quit. It is not blasphemous (IMHO) and thats not what God is overly concerned about. He wants that yearning, calling heart inside of you and me that says "I am parched and dry!" Fill me with your presence! Be closer thatn a brother! Be my satisfaction! Whew!

Love y'all
Big John

[Charles Miles]

Big John,

Let me say a big AMEN to your post! We all walk in the light that we percieve and not all the light that is available. I think the problem(or at least MY problem for many years) is that we take as truth what someone tells us because we respect them and consider them an expert on scripture and doctrine. A true seeker, with help from Holy Spirit, will understand so much more by study and prayer. When someone gives a doctrinal statement such as "...miracle and gifts of the Spirit were for the first century church, but not for today", the earnest seeker will ask for a scriptural reference to confirm such doctrine. I`ll heartily agree that all of us are in different stages of our walk with the Lord(oh how I wish I was at a much more mature level), but we need not sit down where we are and camp out. For years I sat at the foot of the cross and said that it was all I needed, and this is true to a point. There was so much more done at Calvary than salvation, and for years I didn`t understand that the cross is a door that is necessary for the believer to pass through to get to this Kingdom of God. Sometimes it takes the 2x4 up the side of our head to jolt us into getting up and continuing our walk, seeking, study, and learning to love as Jesus told us to.

I find many seekers on this forum and I enjoy reading posts from people who are earnestly seeking the Kigdom and all its good things. We are truely just travelers passing through this world, as we are actually citizens of God`s Kingdom, where gifts of the Spirit are available to us all......just for the asking. Praise God for His lovingkindness, grace, and love.

In Christ,

Charlie

[Julie Daube]

As I read Big John's excellent post and then Charlie's great response, I thought of something I heard from my Evangelism Explosion trainer more than 20 years ago that has stuck with me ever since. Our team was visiting a woman who recently received Christ at a Billy Graham crusade (the visit was a follow-up to a response card she had filled out). We went through the steps of discipleship with her, etc. In the course of the conversation, she happened to mention she was living with her boyfriend. Our team leader didn't comment about that, and we left after inviting her to come to our church (she didn't have a church home yet).

While we were defriefing later, one of the trainees asked the team leader if we should have told the woman she shouldn't be living with someone out of wedlock. The leader said, "No - it's our job to share the gospel and invite people to church; it's the Holy Spirit's job to convict."

I believe that all too often, Christians try to take over the role of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives (even fellow believers). In a way, Candice, I think this may be what your friend is doing by telling you it's blasphemy to attend a particular church. If it's really that serious an offense, the Holy Spirit will convict you of that if you are open to His voice, and I think you are. Also, you mentioned feeling "depressed and oppressed" about this issue. When the Holy Sprit convicts, He brings peace and assurance, not feelings of anxiety, depression, or condemnation. At least, that's been my experience.

[Candice]

I believe that all too often, Christians try to take over the role of the Holy Spirit in other people's lives (even fellow believers). In a way, Candice, I think this may be what your friend is doing by telling you it's blasphemy to attend a particular church. If it's really that serious an offense, the Holy Spirit will convict you of that if you are open to His voice, and I think you are. Also, you mentioned feeling "depressed and oppressed" about this issue. When the Holy Sprit convicts, He brings peace and assurance, not feelings of anxiety, depression, or condemnation. At least, that's been my experience.

Hi Julie,
I agree strongly and entirely with our statement. I hold my tongue and confess to God and REPENT when I find myself playing Holy Spirit to someone. I believe she thinks the church we attend is committing blasphemy in their non-spiritual gifts doctrine and that we are simply to be judged by being part of it. She knows that I do not believe this, but for now, we go because our son is comfortable there since he has friends there from high school. He is not a believer, but says he does like the sermons. The other church is extremely small where my husband and I are the youngest adults there and our son just isn't connected. I heard a sermon by Tozer today on the deeper spiritual life which was great about how it is best to be in a real small church than an unreal large one - a small one that is not into externals than a large one that is into externals. THANK THE LORD for this validation as well.

Blessings,
Candice

[radar]

Hi Candice,

Are you sure about playing the part of the Holy Spirit or actually being the instrument that the Spirit can use?


5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. Proverbs 27:5

¹⁶ All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, ¹⁷ so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:16

23 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels 24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will. 2 Timothy 3:23-26

I see evidence of you applying the above scriptures in your life. The fact that it was distressing you shows that the fruit of the Spirit is evidenced in your life. You said "Even if I agreed with my friend, which maybe I would if it were really put to me by God's Holy Spirit in complete conviction, I would say something. But, I sense that I should be silent about it."

I would test that spirit about being silent. You may want to prayerfully consider that now you are armed with scriptural evidence of the gifts, to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. 1 Brothers and sisters, if a person is discovered in some sin, you who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness. Pay close attention to yourselves, so that you are not tempted too. Galatians 6:1. Ask your friend to provide scriptural evidence that it is blasphemy by using the gifts of the spirit and where it says in the Bible that the gifts have ceased to exist in this day and time. It is not your friend your opposing but the spirit of error and unbelief since we war not with flesh and blood. Even Jesus could not use His gifts of the spirit and do no miracles in His hometown because of unbelief. Just felt led by the spirit to share this with you.

On small gatherings, we had about 45 people at our preaching fellowship this morning. That is about average, with about 25 or so on meat eaters night, which is Wednesday's deeper teaching. On a bright note, our Pastor was able to overcome his fear and sat with us for the first time on a Sunday service. He still does not know who he is or who Jesus or God is, but he has a sweet and gentle spirit about him and trusts that the one who says she is his wife is telling him the truth. Please continue to pray please!

Blessings,
Radar