15 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

One of the saddest lacks in many otherwise good churches today is not providing training in doctrine. Add to that the fact that many pastors do little or no doctrinal preaching. Even some Bible schools and Christian colleges offer only minimal exposure to doctrine. Paul writing to Timothy admonished him to "....give attendance to....doctrine" (I Timothy 4:13). Many doctrinally sound preachers take it for granted that their people believe and understand basic doctrines. Try naming a particular doctrine to a church member or two and ask them to defend it to you. Ask why they believe it and how they would defend it if someone challenged them. You may be in for a surprise. I contend that not to fortify Christians to enable them to defend their faith is a dereliction of duty. I remember Walter Martin saying at one time something like this: "Some cultists can twist the average church member into a doctrinal pretzel in five minutes." What an indictment! Some might argue that their people find doctrine boring. Try explaining it to them. Show how it is relevant. Be excited about it yourself and it will prove contagious. Use illustrations. Only when our people are equipped can they heed Jude's charge in Verse 3, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Sunday School Teachers, Bible Teachers, Pastors, Missionaries and even Evangelists can prepare the saints to withstand error. Selah! Not being doctrinally strong can leave Christians vulnerable to false teachings. If we haven't prepared them and they become victims, some of the blame falls on us for not helping them to, "....be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." (From I Peter 3:15). Thinker (Ron)

[Candice]

Hi Ron,
What would doctrinal training look like? I know there are new believers' classes at some churches. Have you ever heard of Alpha? I have heard mixed stuff about this. It seems that many churches do doctrinal training based on their denominational bents which are presented in membership classes. My hubby and I don't become "official members" since we don't really like the idea. We'd rather be commited non-members than uncommitted members. What do you have idea-wise for doctrinal training?

Candice

[chipped china]

Thirty years ago when I first accepted the Lord I joined a Baptist Church. I had to go to classes to make sure what I believed was "one" with the doctrine they taught. I was always be grateful to that little church and pastor because their doctrine came right out of the scriptures with a Holy anointing. Of course I deepened my understanding since then but my foundation hasn't changed.

[Thinker]

Where should doctrinal training begin? Before I try to answer that, let me give a basic principle: Doctrine is foundational. It is, however not a substitute for Spiritual development, but rather it is a basis for and a reason to grow in grace and be taken up with the Person of our Lord. Probably doctrinal training should begin in church. Preaching should include much doctrinal content and give reasons why it is very essential. Bible studies, VBS, Sunday School, Bible conferences, videos, good books, etc. are all ways to communicate doctrine. There is a personal responsibility for us to use videos, books (such as Christian doctrine and basic theology [be careful of the source]) and websites like Answers in Genesis and Materials such as those by Norman Geisler. Doctrine can be surprisingly interesting if presented in a down-to-earth way and includes good reasons why these basic doctrines are so important. It must also be shown to be relevant. In my teens and early twenties, I went to a church that gave doctrinal preparation. We heard of a well known cult that cautioned their door to door people that if they knocked on doors of people from our church, they should go on to the next house because these people knew their Bibles too well. I might add that the training provided, helped me immensely. I was wrestling with some controversial issues and that teaching helped me discern between Truth and error. Hope this helps! Thinker (Ron)

[Jay Turner]

I am glad that you made a differentiation between doctrine and spiritual development. For me, spiritual development is knowing God and being in relationship with Him, while doctrine is more the study of knowing about who He is and understanding His ways. When you talk about the lack of doctrine and the need to be teaching it more, I tend to be a bit leary. I have seen so many cases where Christians know their doctrine backwards and forwards, yet they have never developed a personal relationship with God. They can quote scripture, but when it comes to the greater things of God like love, compassion, understanding, trust and faith, they are oblivious.

Doctrine is important, but it should always be secondary to spiritual development. Think of David, when he was talking with king Saul about confronting Goliath. Throughout his life, he had killed lions and bears, while tending the flocks. By remembering how God had always been there in those situations and fought with him in those battles, David knew that God would help him defeat Goliath. Because of His personal experiences with God, He was not shaken when he came up against the giant.

There is the verse that says, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” The reason why hearing the word of God is so valuable to our faith is that it reminds us of how God is always with us and fights for us in the midst of our trials. For those who don’t have experiential knowledge of God’s faithfulness, it builds our faith through the cloud of witnesses. Though reading of His faithfulness in scripture can help build our faith, it is nothing in comparison to having those first hand experiences of how God has brought you through seemingly hopeless trials and situations.

As you know, the value I place in scripture and doctrine is different that many on this forum. It’s not that I don’t value doctrine and scripture. But I do see a danger in placing it ahead of spiritual development and knowing God personally. Instead of teaching scripture and doctrine, it seems a better approach would be more of a directed study of it, where you bring up a basic topic, then encourage people to go out and study it for themselves. Then when you come together to talk about it, give them the chance to share what they have learned and the conclusions that they have made. Instead of giving a definitive, “this is what the doctrine is”, help them to come to a conclusion on their own. The struggle to come to a belief is the thing that gives you ownership to that belief. If it is taught, without being questioned, then it was never truly yours in the first place.

[Thinker]

Jay, your thoughts are excellent. I identify with much of what you wrote. As I pointed out in my post, I see doctrine as a foundation (not a means) for Spiritual development. This way, you have some guidelines to be sure that your growth is based on solid doctrine (and not on something like emotions). You are right that sometimes doctrine becomes an end in itself. The same thing happens often with Spiritual growth. People ignore or give little attention to doctrine and go off half-cocked. Satan doesn't particularly care how we get "off balance" just as long as we do. I believe we should be dogmatic in a good way; not bull "dogmatic." (Jesus taught them as One having authority). Your thoughts on giving people a doctrine to study is very worthwhile. A great way to learn. Nevertheless, someone well grounded in the Word should be able to bring appropriate Scripture to bear so that they don't fall into error. Doctrine isn't something to be based on someone's opinion. Otherwise, we would end up with all kinds of variations. Study it, discuss it, debate it but bring the conclusions to the Word to be sure that they square with Scripture so that Truth can be separated from error. Thanks again for your input. Wishing you His best, Thinker (Ron)

[Jay Turner]

When we look at Jesus ministry here on earth, we see how He was ushering in a time of grace and the time of the Spirit. Part of what makes understanding that time and His ministry tricky to understand is that we basically see two worlds colliding. It was still the time of the Law and He had to continue functioning within the constraints of the Law, yet His teachings and His ministry were that of the new spiritual realm that He was ushering in.

I am not going to pretend that I understand all that was involved in all this, but part of what Jesus showed the world was that, over the millennia, the Law gathered a lot of excess baggage. Time and time again, Jesus would do things like heal or glean wheat on the sabbath. The religious leaders of the day saw these things as being forbidden by the law, but that understanding went beyond the Law. In essence, they were adding to it and creating a buffer of safety, helping to ensure that they were keeping within the boundaries of the Law. As we know, the Law was given to us to show us that we cannot live up to God’s standards, no matter how hard we try. Now when you add a buffer of laws on top of that, it goes from something meant to serve a specific purpose, to something that becomes oppressive and in many ways, controlling.

Jesus death and resurrection, was an act of “setting prisoners free”. He set us free from the bondage of sin. He freed us from having to live up to the standards of the Law written in stone, and instead gave us the Holy Spirit to be the Law written on our hearts. And He removed the religious hierarchy of the priesthood by raising us all up to sit in the place of priests in God’s kingdom. He created a foundation where a place of unity and equality could exist within God’s kingdom.

Now when I look at the church as we see it today and many of the things that have become integral parts of what it means to be believers, it seems to me that we have fallen back into a lot of the old traps. We have added a lot of buffers and safety nets, the same types that Jesus was confronting during His time here on earth. We still haven’t broken free from many of the mentalities of hierarchy within the body and we still haven’t come to a solid understanding of the true freedom in walking in the Spirit.

When we look at our “dereliction of duty”, I think it is important to ask the question of how much of what we do as believers is truly essential and what have we added in our attempts to create safety nets. Many times, when I am looking at concepts like salvation, sanctification and the likes, I will try to strip it down to the most simplest terms, while keeping within the bounds set forth in scripture. This means that I have to have a willingness to let go of my own beliefs of what is important in God’s economy, while trusting Him to show me what is truly important from His perspective. By going through a weeding process like this, it can have a potential impact on how we do things like witnessing and evangelism, and it can bring new light into how we walk out our walks as believers and the functioning of the church.

[chipped china]

I find the term dereliction of duty somewhat obscure. When it comes to witnessing and evangelism, I've found most people in this country except for children, have already formed their own conclusions about what they believe. Most of the time my witnessing is met with distrust and who am I to talk? Instead, I try to look for the Spirit in people I meet. I leave the "saving" up to Jesus. So I've been trying to just let things happen as God prompts with His love on my surface.
If I don't stay in the Word daily, I drift from God and His anointing loving kindness. I can lose my thankfulness if I'm not learning about Him everyday. My mental and spiritual stability are reliant upon His Spirit and His Word. If I don't cling to His promises I fall into fear and lose hope. It's my responsibility to quiet myself enough to hear His voice and prompting. I believe everything we need to lead a victorious life is in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit who lives in us makes us righteous and free. I don't respond to church as some think I should instead I look for the sheep, and this seems to be working for me.

[chipped china]

Mark 4:24

King James Version (KJV)


²⁴ And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.


Psalm 119:15

King James Version (KJV)


¹⁵ I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.



Psalm 1:3

King James Version (KJV)


³ And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

The more time we spend thinking about the Word, the more revelation and power we will have to do it.

[chipped china]

I've got to add one more scripture:


Psalm 1

¹ Oh, the joys of those who do not
follow the advice of the wicked,
or stand around with sinners,
or join in with mockers.
² But they delight in the law of the Lord,
meditating on it day and night.

[Candice]

If I don't stay in the Word daily, I drift from God and His anointing loving kindness. I can lose my thankfulness if I'm not learning about Him everyday. My mental and spiritual stability are reliant upon His Spirit and His Word. If I don't cling to His promises I fall into fear and lose hope. It's my responsibility to quiet myself enough to hear His voice and prompting. I believe everything we need to lead a victorious life is in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit who lives in us makes us righteous and free. I don't respond to church as some think I should instead I look for the sheep, and this seems to be working for me.

I find all points here (Jay, Betsy and Ron) well-considered. I lean toward worshipping in truth and love sums up doctrine and Spirit. Worship, being [potentially] anything we do in life. During His 40 days in the wilderness, Jesus responded to Satan's temptations with scriptural references. Why? Not quite sure of the spiritual ramifications for Satan's benefit. Why Jesus would even bother to answer Satan is a whole topic in my mind. However, Jesus's referring to scripture is an example for us to follow. We can so easily get entangled in what we think scripture means if we're not in keeping with the context of the rest of the scriptures. Scripture interprets scripture is one person's pillow on which to rest their head (mine too). Maybe others don't believe this. Look at Joel Osteen! But, Jesus apparently did believe this as he referenced scriptur. He didn't stray from scripture - he fulfilled scripture as it were.

Again, I elieve it is truth and love that sum it all up. And, agreeing with Betsy, in so doing, it is incumbent upon me to take hold of this. I must be in the word, knowing what I'm reading, studying, listening to, etc. I must quiet myself (spirit and mind) by seeking the Holy Spirit and scriptures for all guidance. You need no other teacher(s).

Does truth and love encompass the DEEPER LIFE? Opening a post.

Love, Candice

[Kevin Blankenship]

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
The part that stands out to me: Being rooted and established (grounded) in love.

[Kenny]

One of the saddest lacks in many otherwise good churches today is not providing training in doctrine. Add to that the fact that many pastors do little or no doctrinal preaching. Even some Bible schools and Christian colleges offer only minimal exposure to doctrine. Paul writing to Timothy admonished him to "....give attendance to....doctrine" (I Timothy 4:13). Many doctrinally sound preachers take it for granted that their people believe and understand basic doctrines. Try naming a particular doctrine to a church member or two and ask them to defend it to you. Ask why they believe it and how they would defend it if someone challenged them. You may be in for a surprise. I contend that not to fortify Christians to enable them to defend their faith is a dereliction of duty. I remember Walter Martin saying at one time something like this: "Some cultists can twist the average church member into a doctrinal pretzel in five minutes." What an indictment! Some might argue that their people find doctrine boring. Try explaining it to them. Show how it is relevant. Be excited about it yourself and it will prove contagious. Use illustrations. Only when our people are equipped can they heed Jude's charge in Verse 3, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Sunday School Teachers, Bible Teachers, Pastors, Missionaries and even Evangelists can prepare the saints to withstand error. Selah! Not being doctrinally strong can leave Christians vulnerable to false teachings. If we haven't prepared them and they become victims, some of the blame falls on us for not helping them to, "....be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear." (From I Peter 3:15). Thinker (Ron)

Hello Kevin

I totally agree with you on that. The problem from my perspective and experience is that many people aren't interested in discussing Biblical doctrine. The thought among many is that "doctrine divides, but love unites" I believe it was David Jeremiah who said; "love without doctrine is humanism and doctrine without love is legalism"
Nevertheless, I love what the late Adrian Rogers had to say about this. Adrian stated:
""It is better to be divided by truth than to be united in error. It is better to speak the truth that hurts and heals, than falsehood that comforts and then kills. Let me tell you something, friend, it is not love and it is not friendship if we fail to declare the whole counsel of God. It is better to be hated for telling the truth, than to be loved for telling a lie. It is impossible to find anyone in the Bible who was a power for God who did not have enemies and was not hated. It's better to stand alone with the truth, than to be wrong with a multitude. It is better to ultimately succeed with the truth than to temporarily succeed with a lie. There is only one Gospel and Paul said, 'If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.'" --Adrian Rodgers, 1996

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: Titus 2:1

[Candice]

Hi Kenny,
You quote in your CMA profile, "I have developed my own personal theology from my understanding of the Bible which I call Post Regeneration Synergism. Feel free to ask what that means." Will you please share? Start a new topic?? I'm very curious! Monergism v. synergism??

[Kevin Blankenship]

The last verse in my quote of the scripture was what I was aiming at. "Being rooted and grounded IN LOVE" . That is all.

[chipped china]

I'm going through Revelation with Chuck Missler right now and it's such a blessing to me. He points out that the first letter from Jesus to the church of Ephesus states that they were very good at keeping false doctrine out of the church but they have forgotten their first Love, Him. Fellowship is what God wants from us above all else. Service is opportunity but a love affair with Him is pleasing and all else falls into line.