14 replies to this topic

[Candice]

Though not really a deeper life topic ( tell me where else to post), I just had to share. Could this be contributing to the problems in church? We're not to be faint-hearted, but why do I feel just that when I read this kind of thing?
This demonstrates that one can be deeply deceived into believing they're saved and not be!

Unbelieving Preachers Get Help to "Come Out" as Open Atheists

Jerry DeWitt entered the ministry when he was 17, launching a 25-year career as a Pentecostal preacher. He traveled all around his home state of Louisiana, preaching and ministering wherever he could.
All these years later, DeWitt, 42, is still on the road, and now takes his message all over the United States. But the nature of that message, along with his audience, has changed dramatically.
DeWitt is now an avowed atheist, and his audiences are made up of religious “nones,” the growing number of Americans who are atheist, agnostic, humanist or just plain disinterested in identifying with a religion. Today, DeWitt preaches a gospel of disbelief.
During his speeches, he talks about the process of leaving his preacher job. “If you don’t believe, then you will be like me – you’ll suddenly find yourself where you only have two choices,” DeWitt told a group in Johnson County, Kansas, earlier this year.
“You can either be honest that you don’t believe...or you can pretend that you do,” he said. “Which is what so many people are doing and that is called faith.”
The transition from preacher to outspoken atheist has not been easy, and DeWitt is trying to smooth the way for other former believers. He is executive director of Recovering from Religion, an organization founded in 2009. Its slogan: “Thousands of organizations will help you get INTO religion, but we’re the only one helping you OUT.”
But a relatively new effort goes a step further than his own group by focusing on helping clergy in particular. In March 2011, a coalition that includes national groups such as American Atheists, the Freedom From Religion Foundation and the Richard Dawkins Foundation helped launch the Clergy Project, which is aimed at giving doubting and atheist preachers a community in which they can talk about their disbelief.

[TBC: "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter:2:22).]

Source: The Berean Call

[Thinker]

This, I believe, is the result of our too often watered down presentation of the gospel. When potential converts are guided to accept certain facts and pray a prayer, they may not even be saved. (Sometimes, by the grace of God, they are saved in spite of this anemic approach to leading someone to salvation). "Intellectual only" conversions contribute to these kinds of defections. We have a moral and Spiritual obligation to challenge enquirers by asking them if they are willing for our Lord to take over their lives. Receiving Jesus, as Lord and Savior, is not just subscribing to a few facts or going through a three or four point process or method. It is entering in to a new and wonderful life-long, loving relationship with God through His Son. We need to stop striving to win converts in some assembly-line way and start pressing them on how serious they are about submitting to the implications of coming to Christ. A few who have really opened their lives to Him will have an impact that those who have had only a superficial religious experience cannot have. Thinker (Ron)

[Charles Miles]

Ministers of the Gospel are so very, very important and influential to both young and older christians. Great care must be taken to preach truth and bibilical truth, for I think these "shepards" will answer to a higher standard that others. When a minister stands in the pulpit and openly states that he is a christian and a follower of Jesus, then states that he doesn`t believe in the virgin birth(because that would be biologically impossible), I just "go blank" sitting in the pew! One must "take it all or take none of it" as truth for Christ to be our savior and Lord. OF COURSE IT IS BIOLOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE, that is why it is called the miracle of incarnation, and without it, we are all doomed. "God with us" has to come to us this way! What in the world is being taught at seminaries today?

[Jay Turner]

I think there is a lot being said here, or at least that needs to be said. People turn to pastors and preachers, expecting them to have all the answers and to live perfect lives. In reality, they are humans just like the rest of us, but we put them in the place of God. We should be seeking God for ourselves, letting Him feed us, yet we place the weight on our pastors to fill that role. This can put a lot of pressure on them to perform and play a roles, instead of being honest and open about their own fears and doubts. With this added pressure, I am sure that many of them feel they themselves have nowhere to turn, so it ends up festering and causing more damage, when what they need is healing.

Really, it doesn’t surprise me that many pastors are turning to organizations like the Freedom From Religion Foundation and the Clergy Project. They are looking for answers, like everyone else, and these organizations are there for them and giving them answers and a sense of freedom that they aren’t getting from the church. We have basically set them up to fall, but are not there for them when they do.

Part of the roles of pastor, teacher and of parent, is to lay a foundation by which the young can build their lives upon. It is also to feed them, while teaching them how to feed themselves, so that one day they may reach a place of maturity and move out into the world. Instead, it seems that the goals of the church are more based off of dependence, instead of growing the spiritual youth to maturity.

Spiritual maturity isn’t about having all the answers, or really having any of them. It is knowing how to seek God for oneself and knowing the voice of the Holy Spirit. It is living a life of praise and worship, and of loving your neighbor as yourself. It is knowing who you are in Christ and walking it out in your everyday life. And it is using whatever God has placed into your hands to glorify Him and impact the world around you.

[Charles Miles]

Jay, Yes, pastors are people like us, but they are expected to "lead the flock" in certain aspects of the Church. No, they do not have all the answers, nor did I ever suggest that they do or should, but there are several basic things that they SHOULD know and be able to discuss with people who come to their church for help and counciling. An ordained minister with a seminary education, should be able to present the plan of salvation, discuss just who Jesus Christ is, what He can do and has already done for them, and show them scriptual documentation of the above issues. Sure, there are ministers who"burn out" and have doubts, but that is the time they should back away from pastoring and seek God`s word on whatever subjects trouble them. Do we expect a lot of things from our church leaders? Sure we do. That`s what they "signed on for" and if they can`t show someone how to start to seek a close relationship with the Lord, then they are in the wrong place. The vast majority of ministers are hard working, lovers of God who are "called" into the service of the Lord for a special reason, but certainly not to be supermen in all aspects of the gifts of the spirit. Any minister preaching anything but God`s word on problems encountered today has a problem. Any minister preaching there was no virgin birth, no death, burial, and resurection of Christ is preaching heresy and needs to seek God in the most intense way he can, immediately. This would have to include any minister preaching that one can "find God" by a multitude of means, just as long as they are "sincere" in what they believe, even though it has no scriptural basis in fact. Jesus said " I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no man comes to the Father bu through Me". Can God save someone who never heard the name of Jesus? Well, I`ll leave that one to God and His infinite wisdom, omnipotance, and the fact that He knows the heart of men and I don`t.

I will disagree with you on one point here. Spiritual maturity covers a lot of ground, but but id does require the answer to at least one question. Who is the Lord of my life? Do I have a relationship with Him? Is my name written in the Lamb`s book of life? Jay, the gates of hell are locked from the INSIDE

[Candice]

Jay,

My perceptioni s that there is something quite off here. Okay...Richard Dawkins is an atheist, Christian hater. Do we really need to go into any kind of discussion on where he stands? And, if former pastors go there? Can't support that. We all are without excuse. However, no one - NO ONE is beyond the reach of God! Dawkins knows. He knows there's a God. I just know he does. Nevertheless, again, Romans 1 states that all know and have no excuse!

I believe that Jesus is clear about His followers being hated - it really means He is hated (He was hated first). These particular pastors are not being sought out by Dawkins, et al to help them with "doubt", but to support them in expressing and growing in their "disbelief" and providing a platform to launch into the full-on assault of Christianity and God in general. Any God, for that matter. This is not just an assault on those believers who you don't agree with on every particular doctrine, but CHRIST HIMSELF. Okay, we know it will happen. Jesus was clearly warning believers in His day and us that these things would happen.

We can surely provide care for pastors who come forward in transparency with spiritual troubles, including doubts, but we can't placate them when they come out against truths of the word of God, including creation, virgin birth, etc. We can't stand with them. They ought not to be pastors (as teachers) as this will involve a stricter judgement. These are primary matters. Yes, we can go over scripture, pray for this person, etc. Really, the church needs to operate on the spiritual gifts. No all are to be pastors, etc. Doubting these truths is core to faith and slipping into oblivion.

This is really a matter of being a contrarian - to Christ in essence and truth. The slippery slope. When a pastor comes to a point of saying it's all a lie, he's not of Christ. Sorry.

"They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

[chipped china]

Either you've got Him or you don't, and it's by the grace of God least you boast. I also believe Psalms 14.1 that people reject God to escape the responsibility of sin. Teachers and pastors should stick to teaching the scripture. The world hates believers. We should be bold in our love of Christ and the brethren, and pray for the lost. I'm tired of throwing pearls to swine and I'm not doing it anymore. In this country the Word has and is preached. God knows His sheep and they know His voice, no one will snatch them from His Father's Hand. This is me feeling like a barbarian tonight.

[Candice]

Amen Betsy!! I'm not trying to draw anyone to mee by being complacent with unbelievers or "believers" who have eliminated the word of God as authority. I need no fans. We are to draw all to Christ - He is the author and perfector of our faith.

[chipped china]

Sometimes I don't know how to be gentle and mild. And this subject kind of hit a sore spot with me because I've been learning lessons about letting God deal with people's salvation. I have loved ones who aren't saved and it hurts. I can't understand why anyone would not except this precious Gift we have been given.

[Charles Miles]

I have known many preachers, ministers,and pastors, some were good at what they did and some were, well, average. It is a tough job to be a shepard....sheep bite! Never, ever have I considered any minister to be in the place of God! Even though I`m not sure what that would involve. They are men, tasked with preaching the word and maybe giving advice when they can. Paul said that we need to hear the word of God and we need to hear it spoken to hear it, so there is the reason we need preachers of the gospel. Anyone who is trained in the Word, studies the Word, and then goes to an atheist for advice...well he/she just doesn`t get it! Let me also say here(since I`m on a roll) that anyone who preaches the gospel but doesn`t believe it......that is NOT faith. The word hypocrite comes to mind, but that may not be strong enough. If a man/woman does not believe Christ died for their sins and that they are forgiven, maybe the appropriate response for a minister in this position would be just to keep silent and pray.

Anyone who has the time needs to get Ben Stein`s video conversation with Richard Dawkins just to see how intellectually impoverished the atheist point of view really is. Also Dr Chuck Missler has a vidoe on Genesis that shows beyond any doubt that evolution theory is irrational and impossible. Man, in his despirate attempt to explain origins comes up with some real "way out" theories and these are being taught in our schools as absolute fact.....unconfirmed, untested, unscientific, statistically impossible fact! I guess what I am trying to say here is that no one man(or man at all) has the answer to all the questions, but certainly Dawkins does not have them and only a very weak mind will buy into his ilk.

[Candice]

Sometimes I don't know how to be gentle and mild. And this subject kind of hit a sore spot with me because I've been learning lessons about letting God deal with people's salvation. I have loved ones who aren't saved and it hurts. I can't understand why anyone would not except this precious Gift we have been given.

My unbelieving sister (57 yo) and niece are here visiting from other states. They keep asking me questions about Christianity. Some of this interest seems genuine; some of it baiting. My niece is 24, living in NYC. She asked about orthodox Jews, whom she said cannot even be touched by a woman while accidentally being brushed up against on the subway train! "What do the tassles mean?" she asked me. They were labeling Jews as extremists. They don't understand that whole spiritual matter with the Jews and the promise, etc. Why did she ask me about Jewish tradition? I'm not Jewish -but Christian. She doesn't understand the law-grace connection intellectually or spiritually. This is the LORD's drawing her. But, Satan keeps putting forth his best effort in any way he can by providing distractions from truth. But, I keep loving her and answering her questions even when she is playing devil's advocate. Now, she's asked for some reading material and the LORD keeps putting Ravi Zacharia's book, "The End of Reason: A Response to the New Atheist" on my mind. I will wait until I'm sure the Spirit of God is leading that. She says she cannot understand the bible. I told her it wasn't just a book for the mind and was understood in the Spirit. If she is truly seeking and not just reading to get another argument against it under her belt, then God would show her what she needs to know and that if she knocks He will answer; if she seeks with her whole heart, she will find Him.

I cannot do more for my niece than to pray and direct her towards Christ. I do not want others drawn to me. I think there's some very subtle deception going on with believers; albeit by Satan's distracting nature, that we are to sort of be all things worldly in order to attract people to us. Now, that's not the attraction. The atrraction is Christ and he won't compete with me bringing in the world to convert. This is a ridiculous notion that we become worldly to attract people to Christ. This is not what Paul meant by being "all things to all people".

It is painful for me to see my sister and niece floundering and even more painful to think where their eternal destination may be - although the end is not here and God can reach them. Last night, my son was being the worst of all, being down right mean to me and making fun of my extreme views. OKay. Fine with me. Because I love the LORD more than my son. I've said it and mean it. God can "pan it all out" I'm not going to be the provider for anyone's worldly sweet tooth.

I guess I'd like to also say that we need no devil's advocates on this forum. Satan has an army of them. I'd like to go where my brothers and sisters in Christ support me and we are all of one accord.

[Jay Turner]

Many of my beliefs don’t line up with mainstream theology or church doctrine. It is not that they are unbiblical, but when it comes to peoples beliefs, they tend to be very ungiving and inflexible when it comes to beliefs that vary from their own. There are times where I feel led to share on forums like C&MA. From my experience, instead of taking the time to enter into dialogue, ask questions, try to understand why I have come to the conclusions that I have come to, people have a tendency to either shutdown or focus on one small point of contention, while ignoring the other valid points brought up.

I value each of you and your opinions, but at the end of the day, I don’t know any of you from Adam. I could just walk away from this site and it would have little to no impact on the everyday workings of me or my life. When it comes to the pastor of a church, they are expected to live and to exude the doctrines and theology approved by the church that they pastor. If God begins to lead them down a path that may come into conflict with those doctrines, they are forced to make a hard choice. They can keep their beliefs to themselves, feeling like hypocrites from believing one thing and preaching another. Alternately, they can be true to where God is leading them while risking their very livelihood by going against accepted church doctrine. For many pastors, it can come down to pleasing God or pleasing the congregation. If their faith or their beliefs are brought into question, it could very well mean losing their job.

Those who become pastors take on the responsibility of shepherding the flock, taking on the hurts, doubts, fears and the needs of others. But there are times where their own hurts and needs become too much to bear and they need someone to turn to. Because of many of the expectations that are placed upon pastors and the way we do church, many times they do not have shoulders of their own to cry on or sounding boards to help them work through their fears and doubts.

Keep in mind that a stumbling block doesn’t have to be the size of a bolder. I can be a small pebble. But a small pebble, when you are tired and distracted from continually dealing with other peoples problems and needs, can cause a fall, as if it were a large bolder. Plus when you have no one to help you up after a fall, what may have started out as a minor fear or doubt can become a seemingly insurmountable problem and in turn become a crisis of faith. I know that this isn’t the case for all pastors, but for some, they are having a crisis of faith and feel they have nowhere to turn.

Just looking at the Clergy Project page, I see a draw for those pastors who have lost their faith and are just trying to find a way to gracefully back out of their position as pastor, and of course for those who just want justification that their fears and doubts are valid, giving them more of a reason to turn their back on God. But I also see how many would be drawn because they see it as a place where they can anonymously voice their fears and doubts and in turn, hopefully work through them. It could be seen as an outlet where they see no other.

I am not here to justify the Clergy Project, but before we start judging these (ex)pastors, I feel it is important to at least try to see things from their perspectives. People make hard decisions in hard times. Many times those decisions are not based on what is necessarily right, but instead on what give the greatest glimpse of hope. When there is no hope in sight, sometimes one will grasp onto whatever they can.

For me, I don’t see this as a failure on the part of these pastors or even the Clergy Project. Instead the failure is on the side of the body of Christ for not seeing the problems and finding avenues where healing may come about. Sometimes reading about God’s truth in scripture isn’t enough. The things of God have to be seen and experienced in real life. If we are not willing to be Christ to these people, then we have no right to judge them for their crisis’ of faith or for turning their backs on God. The sheep of the pasture have a responsibility to the wellbeing of the shepherd and each other, just as the shepherd has a responsibility to them.

As children of God, it is important to know what we believe, but it is equally important to have a willingness to listen to others, even when our beliefs may not coincide with theirs. It is by listening and creating a place of safety, where people begin to open up and allow the healing process to begin.

[Thinker]

Jay, I think you make some very valid points. I would agree with much of what you have shared. As long as the differences in beliefs are in areas that are not basic doctrines (i.e; The Virgin Birth, The Trinity, The Deity of Christ, The Second coming, etc.), then we can hold firm beliefs that differ and accept each other, discuss, pray, study, convince (if possible) and even admit if someone else is right (if they have made their case on the solid evidence of Scripture). However, if they compromise on a basic, fundamental doctrine, perhaps they can be salvaged. If not, they must be spoken against. It should not be in a hateful way, but firm, with deep regret. Exposure is essential to maintaining the purity of Truth. John, under inspiration, makes that abundantly clear. Thinker (Ron).

[Charles Miles]

Jay, Let me say first that I love you as a brother and a seeker of truth, God`s truth. We are all different and have had different experiences in life to bring us into a relationship with the Father. Not everyone has had a Saul type "road to Damascus" type meeting with the Lord, but most of us have had a personal and "up close" episode with the Father that has changed our lives. We all have ups and downs during life, but the christian has a "safety net" with the love and sacrifice of Christ on which to fall back upon. For years I lived a life od moral assent that was miserable...God loves me, no God doen`t love me, yes He does, no He doen`t, etc, etc. I always knew that there was a God but I didn`t know that He actually cared about me and my troubles. This is a terrible way to go through life and satan will make sure you have all the doubt he can muster against you. Once you know that you know that you know God loves you, knows who you are, and cares about every aspect of your life, all the doubt, confusion, anxiety, and anger simply leave!

I simply cannot imagine doubting that there is a God, that He has known me from before time began, that he cares about everything I care about, and He loves me more than I can ever fathom, how on earth could I ever turn my back on Him? When I read Romans 8, a peace falls upon me that surpases all understanding. Where should these pastors go who are having a faith crisis? Well, they can go to many areas for counciling and help, but as for me, I go to Romans 8. Is that church doctrine? No. It is the Word Of God telling me that all is OK with my soul. I know you have a different experience with following the "Spirit" but the Spirit speaks to me through God`s written Word. God`s written word id so profound, so true, so unerring. The most profound words often come from a song.."Jesus Loves Me This I Know, Because the Bible Tells Me So!!"

I will never make light od anyone`s faith or belief system, but sometimes I know that it is just not for me. Does that mean theirs is wrong? Not for me to judge, for God is my judge and He will hold me resposible for what He taught me, not what someone else was taught or exposed to.

With all Love,

Charlie

[chipped china]

Hi Charlie,

I wanted to thank you for showing me Chuck Missler's expositional bible studies. I'm listening to one everyday and they're just what I needed at this time in my walk.