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Guess this Lutheran is on his own.


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#1 Revdavid

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 01:24 PM

Only one of the many who read this forum know the definitions to these, I'm assuming very familiar terms. Come on folks; I'm serious I want to understand more about this.
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In Christ our Healer,
Pastor David

#2 Julie Daube

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Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:36 PM

Only one of the many who read this forum know the definitions to these, I'm assuming very familiar terms. Come on folks; I'm serious I want to understand more about this.

"Spirit-filled" means being fully yielded to and controlled by the Holy Spirit; it is synonymous with the term "surrendered." The VP for Church Ministries of the U.S. C&MA, John Soper, has taught and written extensively on this process, which is also known as sanctification and is part of A. B. Simpson's teaching on the Fourfold Gospel. Unfortunately, I haven't time right now to address the other terms you listed. Sorry!

#3 matheteuo

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 04:33 PM

As a former member of the Alliance, and having been approved for licencing in CMA ministry, I respect the Alliance for their love and devotion to Christ, and their passion for missions. But the terms you're asking about concern the CMA's teachings on sanctification. These terms are variously understood (depending who you talk to), but are rooted in the broader Keswick model of sanctification (i.e. 'Let go and let God'). I'm not an expert on the subject, but I know of an opportunity to explore the issue further; a tuition-free course is being offer this June which will address the different models of sanctification. If interested go to

http://andynaselli.c...-sanctification

You may find it helpful. Grace.

#4 Revdavid

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 06:54 AM

Thanks, I may just do that.

As a former member of the Alliance, and having been approved for licencing in CMA ministry, I respect the Alliance for their love and devotion to Christ, and their passion for missions. But the terms you're asking about concern the CMA's teachings on sanctification. These terms are variously understood (depending who you talk to), but are rooted in the broader Keswick model of sanctification (i.e. 'Let go and let God'). I'm not an expert on the subject, but I know of an opportunity to explore the issue further; a tuition-free course is being offer this June which will address the different models of sanctification. If interested go to

http://andynaselli.c...-sanctification

You may find it helpful. Grace.


In Christ our Healer,
Pastor David

#5 StevePage

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 08:40 AM

I will only address the Wesleyan view of Sanctification, only because it is the one that I fell is most like what scripture describes. I do not agree with it 100% though and I will explain why.

This is from the Wesleyan web site

14. Sanctification: Initial, Progressive, Entire
236. We believe that sanctification is that work of the Holy Spirit by which the child of God is separated from sin unto God and is enabled to love God with all the heart and to walk in all His holy commandments blameless. Sanctification is initiated at the moment of justification and regeneration. From that moment there is a gradual or progressive sanctification as the believer walks with God and daily grows in grace and in a more perfect obedience to God. This prepares for the crisis of entire sanctification which is wrought instantaneously when believers present themselves as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, being effected by the baptism with the Holy Spirit who cleanses the heart from all inbred sin. The crisis of entire sanctification perfects the believer in love and empowers that person for effective service. It is followed by lifelong growth in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. The life of holiness continues through faith in the sanctifying blood of Christ and evidences itself by loving obedience to God's revealed will.

Gen. 17:1; Deut. 30:6; Ps. 130:8; Isa. 6:1-6; Ezek. 36:25-29; Matt. 5:8, 48; Luke 1:74-75; 3:16-17; 24:49; John 17:1-26; Acts 1:4-5, 8; 2:1-4; 15:8-9; 26:18; Rom. 8:3-4; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; 2 Cor. 7:1; Eph. 4:13, 24; 5:25-27; 1 Thess. 3:10, 12-13; 4:3, 78; 5:23-24; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:11-14; Heb. 10:14; 12:14; 13:12; James 3:17-18; 4:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Peter 1:4; 1 John 1:7, 9; 3:8-9; 4:17-18; Jude 24.


This can be confusing because of the terminology that is used. In particular I'm referring to this sentence "The crisis of entire sanctification perfects the believer in love and empowers that person for effective service. It is followed by lifelong growth in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." Don't ask me why these terms are used, I do not know, and I do not know why more modern and more easily understood terms are not used. A revision is probably long overdue.

"When we speak of "crisis", it should be understood that we are not referring to an "emergency" in the life of the believer. Rather, we are asking, Is there a "definite moment" in the Christian walk, following conversion, in which he is purified from all sin? We believe there is!" - John A. Knight, In His Likeness, p. 97 In other words crisis is not a crisis as we know it, rather it is a defining moment in the life of a Christian when they finally just get it. By that I mean there is (hopefully) a moment in the "gradual or progressive sanctification" when the Christian comes to a maturing in their understanding of grace, and the Lord and everything (the totality of their studies and beliefs) just comes together and the is (as far as humanly possible) a perfection of their love and understanding of the Lord.

Perfection is something else that must be looked at closely. Like the word crisis, perfection as used by Wesleyans does not mean perfection but rather it means it become more perfect in our love for the Lord, our understanding of Him and the in turn causes us to see the sin in our lives more as He does. We will also be less likely to sin due to the renewing of our attitude toward sin.

Note, all Wesleyans do not agree on what I have just written. There is a divide where one group would say that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of entire sanctification. There is the other side (to which I belong) that would say that we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism and there is no second "baptism." (Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” We see that the gift and the baptism of the Spirit are the same.) But this is considered a very minor difference and it has never been a big deal.

Where I disagree with the Wesleyan statement and in fact where I disagree with most Christian is on perfection. Can a Christian become perfect? Well the short answer is no, because we are each flawed from our past sin. Notice I did not say we are flawed by our "original sin." I think we are born pure, we inevitably sin, and then we are forever flawed until we are washed in the Blood of the Lamb. But what about after we are saved and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
I'll just put out some thoughts and some verses that have me wondering.

Paul said it is in our nature to sin but he never said that, in Jesus, we must sin or that we will sin.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

When God told Abram, "walk before me faithfully and be blameless." was He just setting Abram up for a big fall? Why didn't God just say "walk before me somewhat faithfully and be somewhat blameless, because you have no choice but to fail”?

Job 1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Deuteronomy 18:12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

(The Hebrew word for blameless used in these verses is translated to say blameless 22 times and perfect 5 times in the KJV. From tamam; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth -- without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright(-ly), whole.)

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." (Was Jesus playing some cruel mind game with this guy? Why did Jesus tell him not to sin anymore if it would be impossible?)

John 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either Go From now on sin no more." (I have heard it said that Jesus might have said "Go and do THIS sin no more." If so would Jesus expect her to be sinless in one area of her life but not another? Or if Jesus was saying go and leave you life of prostitution or adultery is it not true that He would then also be saying that other sinful parts of her life were OK? In truth Jesus told her to go and sin no more and He expected that she was able to make the right choices and do as He said.)

Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

James 1:5 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

From telos - having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect(complete, perfect, mature) From telos; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with ho) completeness -- of full age, man, perfect.
NASB Word Usage
complete (2), mature (4), more perfect (1), perfect (12)

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (If we live in the flesh we are prone to sin, what if we live in the Spirit? What is Paul saying?)

2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. (Is Paul setting us up? Is he asking us to do something that we cannot do? Are all things truly possible with God? You will say yes, but then you might deny it by saying He cannot help us to not sin. You might deny God is omnipotent if you say that His Spirit is powerless to sanctify us and that the Spirit is unable to renew us and help to us not sin.)

Ephesians 4:22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (If you have been born again as a new creation in Christ is it your nature to sin? Or was that nature in the old man that Jesus offers to help you kill?)

1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you. 13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones. (Paul is not talking about blamelessness that comes through the blood of Christ here. He is saying that we are able to be blameless, with God's help.)

1 Corinthians 15:34
Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.
Romans 6:12
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
Ephesians 1:4
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
1 Thessalonians 4:7
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
2 Timothy 1:9
He has saved us and called us to a holy life
Romans 6:1-2, “Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?
1 John 5:3
This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,....
1 Peter 1:14-16
So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.

Another thing and the most important thing, where does scripture ever say it impossible for us to make the choice to not commit a sin? For example where does scripture says, for example, “you steal because you must, because you were born evil?

What does repentance entail?

Why did the writer of Hebrews write "Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need." If Jesus was perfect because He had supernatural help, it seems that His sacrifice would not be valid.

Can a Christian be perfect after conversion and having received the Spirit of God?