Jump to content


Photo

Help the Lutheran


  • Please log in to reply
8 replies to this topic

#1 Revdavid

Revdavid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Location:Albany/Delmar, New York
  • Interests:Family,Outdoors, Gardening, Birds,
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Pastor

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • St. Matthew Lutheran Church

Posted 22 April 2011 - 08:03 AM

Some of the words are so familiar and understood by many of you are not used much in Lutheran circles.
Could anyone please help understand some of the vocabulary I'm picking up in my study of Tozer,Simpson, Chambers and others. Here are the words I'd like to understand better.

Surrender

Total Surrender

Yielding

Abandon

Total Abandon

Baptism in the Spirit

Spirit- filled

My Lutheran training tended to avoid these words or place them in a negative light. But I want to learn all I can.
In Christ our Healer,
Pastor David

#2 Travis Richey

Travis Richey

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Layperson

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • Granbury Church of the Nazarene

Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:11 PM

You have asked a very important question, and one which I have been thinking over for a couple of years now. You've also opened my eyes to something I've never thought through in much detail. I was raised in and now attend a Nazarene Church, which is a Holiness based evanvgelical denomination. And in those few words, the problem you describe beings, for we could quickly add to your list of desired definitions the definitions of Holiness and evangelical.

A couple of years back, I realized that I had a knowledge of the "language of the church". I knew the right words, and I knew the correct context in which those words were used. However, I discovered that I really did not know what they meant, or I did not fully understand their meaning. The point you've now opened my own eyes to see is that there isn't a universal "language of the church". You've stated that you lack understanding of words that are infrequently used in your arena of experience. So I think I can safely assume that there are in fact several "languages of the church" to now contend with. No wonder we as a so called Christian nation are so confused as to our identity....and confused as people as to who our brothers and sisters in Christ really are.

I believe we could compile a long list of words that could use defining, were we to give it half a thought. I know I use words all the time that, when I look them up in the dictionary, I discover I'm not using properly or that have deeper and richer meanings than I tend to give to them. I think that is even more true with the words we use to try and describe Spiritual and Scriptural things. So my hope is that this thread becomes one of depth and insight as we all discuss the "languages of the church".

Having said all of that, I do think that within the various discussions here, we find the beginnings of and even the deepness of some of the definifions you mention. I know for a fact that in the Exhcnaged Life thread I began the other day, one of the main theme in Taylor and Simpons lives is the theme of surrender, total surrender, and yielding. I think it is best described as allowing Christ to fill us so copletely that there is no room for ourself. The old self is put to death, as Romans 6 states, we are united with Christ in His death, His burial and in His resurrection. Colossians 1:29 states that the mystery of God is "Christ in us". We surrender totally to Christ and Lord, as Savior, as Messiah, as King, and as Master. In fact, on John MacArthor's talk on the Grace to You radio program the other day, the theme was being a slave of God....not a servant as most of our translations talk about it, but a slave. The Greek work douloss only having that meaning of slave. If we are a slave of God...of Christ, then we have no will of our own, and only His will to act upon. That is surrendered, recognizing that we are bought at a price, and we are no longer our own.

But I've rambled on enough already. I shall pause, and look forward to this discussion.

#3 Revdavid

Revdavid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Location:Albany/Delmar, New York
  • Interests:Family,Outdoors, Gardening, Birds,
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Pastor

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • St. Matthew Lutheran Church

Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:10 PM

Does having no room for yourself mean that you have no personality at all?Hasn't the Lord made us who we are for a reason so we are unique as no one else. I'd need to understand where who I am stops and where who Christ is begins, Or do we co-exist.Does he renew my human nature to the point where it is gone or just so much like His that you can't see it any more? It confuses me a bit. But don't get me wrong; I can accept it by faith if that's how He wants it to be. Maybe I think too deep! It seems to me that there is something of me that He wants and desires to use for His Glory.
In Christ our Healer,
Pastor David

#4 Revdavid

Revdavid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 36 posts
  • Location:Albany/Delmar, New York
  • Interests:Family,Outdoors, Gardening, Birds,
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Pastor

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • St. Matthew Lutheran Church

Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:10 PM

Does having no room for yourself mean that you have no personality at all?Hasn't the Lord made us who we are for a reason so we are unique as no one else. I'd need to understand where who I am stops and where who Christ is begins, Or do we co-exist.Does he renew my human nature to the point where it is gone or just so much like His that you can't see it any more? It confuses me a bit. But don't get me wrong; I can accept it by faith if that's how He wants it to be. Maybe I think too deep! It seems to me that there is something of me that He wants and desires to use for His Glory.
In Christ our Healer,
Pastor David

#5 Travis Richey

Travis Richey

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Layperson

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • Granbury Church of the Nazarene

Posted 23 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

I believe you are exactly right, we are created as unique beings by God Himself. So where does "me" end and "Christ" begin? I think your co-exist idea is close to what it is, though I'm not really sure. The example that comes to mind is this:

I go to work for a company, and in so doing, I agree to a certain set of rules of behavior, and I agree to work towards a common goal of the company. I do not check my personality at the door, it is a part of who I am. I do however have to do and not do certain things while representing the company, and that may mean having to modify my dress, behavior, language, etc. and it means that I am no longer free during those hours to do what I want to do when I want to do it and how I want to do it. I have to follow company policies. In other words, I yield myself to the company in certain areas of my life.

So, as I come to Christ, and allow Him and the Father to come to me and make their home with me, I must yield myself to Him. As that relationship grows and matures, I will find myself yielding more and more as the Holy Spirit brings about conviction concerning those things that get in the way of that relationship. This is the on-going surrender of ourselves to Christ. The longer I serve Him, the sweeter He grows, and the more willing I am to follow Him completely and totally. I still have my uniqueness as a person, and my personality. However, they are undergoing changes as well. It is God who works in each of us to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. And I do believe we finally find ourselves at the point that we are so drawn to God by His loving-kindness that we discover we are completely and totally surrendered to His Will. Even then, I am still Travis, and I am still the sum total of all that has happened to me throughout my life, but now I discover that God has taken all those events and experiences and worked them out for His good and my good.

At least that is the way I'm thinking all this through right now. I tend to start typing and my thoughts get ahead of my fingers, and after a couple of days I'll probably read back through this and figure out how I could have said it all better.

God Bless you with the Richness and Fulness of His Love,

#6 Julie Daube

Julie Daube

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 986 posts
  • Interests:Intercessory prayer, spiritual warfare, prophecy, science fiction and fantasy, music, fitness, nutritional healing, apologetics, and evangelism
  • Gender:Female
  • I am a National Office Worker

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • First Evangelical Free Church

Posted 27 April 2011 - 02:34 PM

"Spirit-filled" means being fully yielded to and controlled by the Holy Spirit; it is synonymous with the term "surrendered." The VP for Church Ministries of the U.S. C&MA, John Soper, has taught and written extensively on this process, which is also known as sanctification and is part of A. B. Simpson's teaching on the Fourfold Gospel. Unfortunately, I haven't time to address the other terms you listed. Sorry!

#7 Joel Stoddert

Joel Stoddert

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 181 posts
  • Location:Waterbury, VT
  • Gender:Male
  • I am a Pastor

  • I attend an Alliance church
  • Green Mountain Community Alliance Church

Posted 27 April 2011 - 08:14 PM

Some of the words are so familiar and understood by many of you are not used much in Lutheran circles.
Could anyone please help understand some of the vocabulary I'm picking up in my study of Tozer,Simpson, Chambers and others. Here are the words I'd like to understand better.

Surrender

Total Surrender

Yielding

Abandon

Total Abandon

Baptism in the Spirit

Spirit- filled

My Lutheran training tended to avoid these words or place them in a negative light. But I want to learn all I can.



Being filled with Spirit, as explained by Alliance founder A.B. Simpson, is, like breathing. He says that just as we need to breathe to live, we need to breathe spiritually, continuously breathing out the old nature and breathing in the Spirit, so to speak. In a hymn he composed (like his others, as a conclusion to a sermon), Simpson prays:

Jesus, breathe Thy Spirit on me: Teach me how to breathe Thee in
Help me pour into Thy bosom all my life of self and sin.
I am breathing out my own life, that I may be filled with Thee:
Letting go my strength and weakness, breathing in Thy life divine.

I've always thought that analogy of breathing works very well, as such infilling is not a one-time event, but something we need repeatedly, just we need to breathe, eat, etc. We are baptized in the Spirit when we become believers, and He lives within, but although sin no longer has authority over us, we're still affected by it, resulting in times when we squelch the Spirit's activity, refuse to listen to His voice, etc., & it affects our spiritual lives. At such times, we need a fresh filling of His Spirit, not because, as Tozer wisely points out, the Spirit is any less present than He ever was, but because we've become less open to His leading and presence than we were.

As for baptism in the Spirit, as author Eugene Peterson reminds us, we see the Trinitarian nature of God in our redemption. When we're saved, we become adopted children of the Father, co-heirs with Christ, and as such are led by His Spirit--the same Spirit who opens our eyes to our need for a restored relationship with the Father and that Christ died and rose for us, enabling us to put our trust in Christ. Since we can't see Jesus face-to-face yet, He tells us, in John's gospel, that the Holy Spirit will take what He, the Son, wants us to learn and do, and make it known to us--just as Jesus taught his original disciples in person. Just as Jesus lived 24/7 with his disciples, His Spirit dwells within 24/7 from the time we open our hearts to Christ.

#8 Julie Daube

Julie Daube

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 986 posts
  • Interests:Intercessory prayer, spiritual warfare, prophecy, science fiction and fantasy, music, fitness, nutritional healing, apologetics, and evangelism
  • Gender:Female
  • I am a National Office Worker

  • I attend a non-Alliance church
  • First Evangelical Free Church

Posted 28 April 2011 - 08:11 AM

Very well said, Joel!