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#1 Tkulp

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:27 AM

First I would like to encourage each reader to take the time to read Tozer’s Feb. 16 devotional at the following link < https://www.cmallian...ns/tozer?id=724 >

I was really amazed the other day as I was lead to read the following devotional.

 

Will you take a test, read the following and comment; is the following devotional, highlighted in Blue, Truth or Error? What does the Bible say; any translation?

When a number of you have commented, and I feel lead to, I will post what my spirit saw; maybe I will just edit this post.

Thanks for your participation!

 

Here is the devotional in question:

And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. - Acts 4:13

A Christian should be a striking likeness of Jesus Christ. You have read lives of Christ, beautifully and eloquently written, but the best life of Christ is His living biography, written out in the words and actions of His people. If we were what we profess to be, and what we should be, we would be pictures of Christ; yes, such striking likenesses of Him that the world would not have to hold us to the mirror and say, “Well, it seems somewhat of a likeness”; they would, when they saw us, exclaim, “He has been with Jesus; he has been taught by Him; he is like Him; he has caught the very idea of the holy Man of Nazareth, and he works it out in his life and everyday actions.”

A Christian should be like Christ in his boldness. Never blush to own your Christianity; your profession will never disgrace you: Take care you never disgrace that. Be like Jesus, very valiant for your God.

Imitate Him in your loving spirit; think kindly, speak kindly, and do kindly, that men may say of you, “He has been with Jesus.” Imitate Jesus in His holiness. Was He zealous for His Master? So should you be, going about doing good. Do not waste time; it is too precious. Was He self-denying, never looking to His own interest? Be the same. Was He devout? Then be fervent in your prayers. Did He defer to His Father’s will? So submit yourselves to Him. Was He patient? So learn to endure. And best of all, as the highest portraiture of Jesus, try to forgive your enemies, as He did; and let those sublime words of your Master, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” always ring in your ears. Forgive, as you hope to be forgiven. Heap coals of fire on the head of your enemy by your kindness to him. Good for evil, remember, is Godlike.

Be Godlike then; and in all ways and by all means so live that all may say of you, “He has been with Jesus.”


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#2 Tkulp

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 09:27 AM

Well I just noticed that this post was messed up! I believe that the Lord, along with the Marvin's help, has given me a way to correct a mysterious, to me, double entry of this topic, I was able to edit the second copy, which is what you are now reading.

 

It is hard to believe that so many of you have looked, but no one, to date, has made any comment.



#3 Tkulp

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Posted 25 February 2017 - 11:24 PM

 My mind can come up with a number of reasons, not to reply, which only each of you as individuals would know in your own heart why ‘you’ have not commented or replied.

 

I know that I dislike ‘tests’ and I really do not care to be ‘wrong’! Therefore I avoid ‘tests’ if I can and I talk to the Lord a lot, in order to avoid being ‘wrong’!

 

I also, personally, take a verse in Proverbs very seriously; Net Bible, Proverbs 17:28  Even a fool who remains silent is considered wise, and the one who holds his tongue is deemed discerning.

 

It is good to be silent at times, but then there is a silence that “promotes” deception, darkness and death!

 

Hosea 4:1-12  “Hear the word of the LORD, you Israelites! For the LORD has a covenant lawsuit against the people of Israel. For there is neither faithfulness nor loyalty in the land, nor do they acknowledge God****. There is only cursing, lying, murder, stealing, and adultery. They resort to violence and bloodshed. Therefore the land will mourn, and all its inhabitants will perish. The wild animals, the birds of the sky, and even the fish in the sea will perish.

 

Do not let anyone accuse or contend against anyone else: for my case is against you priests! You stumble day and night, and the false prophets stumble with you; You have destroyed your own people!

 

You have destroyed my people by failing to acknowledge me! Because you refuse to acknowledge me, I will reject you as my priests. Because you reject the law of your God, I will reject your descendants. The more the priests increased in numbers, the more they rebelled against me. They have turned their glorious calling into a shameful disgrace!

 

They feed on the sin offerings of my people; their appetites long for their iniquity!

 

I will deal with the people and priests together: I will punish them both for their ways, and I will repay them for their deeds.

 

They will eat, but not be satisfied; they will engage in prostitution, but not increase in numbers; because they have abandoned the LORD by pursuing other gods. Old and new wine take away the understanding of my people. They consult their wooden idols, and their diviner’s staff answers with an oracle. The wind of prostitution blows them astray; they commit spiritual adultery against their God.”

 

****People do not have a truthful, intimate knowledge of God and His Heart (desires) for humanity! Jesus came to reveal that knowledge, which the Israelite spiritual leaders had twisted. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal how spiritual leaders, in the last 2000 years, have twisted what our Heavenly Father, through Jesus, has given us.

 

Too many preachers preach mostly ‘truth’, but interject into it a ‘deception’, or at times an outright lie.

 

How many preachers do you know that really believe and teach, “that you can live without sin”, free from all sin in your life, completely rescued and delivered?

 

What is the TRUTH? What does the Bible say about God’s Holiness, lived out, in our lives?


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#4 ADVRider

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 09:22 PM

My mind can come up with a number of reasons, not to reply, which only each of you as individuals would know in your own heart why ‘you’ have not commented or replied.
 
[color=#221e1f][size=11]I know that I dislike ‘tests’ and I really do not care to be ‘wrong’!


Tim,

Forgive me if I am off base here, but I think one reason no one has bitten is because if you're implying, even unintentionally, that you're not wrong, then they're also going to be reluctant to be "wrong" if they don't see what you do or disagree with you. You unknowingly have uninvited people to respond to the theological discussion you want to have because there is no room for disagreement. Many want to be taught, but the idea that they'll feel wrong if they don't agree is not all that appealing to them. They'll feel set-up.
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#5 Tkulp

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 01:28 PM

Thanks ADVRider,

 

I agree with you 100%, but I did not want to catch anyone without letting them know that there was something wrong. Maybe like letting them know that there was an answer that was wrong.

 

I am reminded of the test given at school that said "Don't do anything before reading everything". The teacher and a few students watched the rest of us that did not follow directions spend a long time doing needless work.

 

So you know the right or wrongness of this devotional is not and has nothing to do with me or my opinions. It is purely the Bible.

 

Since you have been the only one to be brave enough to even venture a comment, I will let you and all other readers know that in all the years that I have been following Jesus and trying to share TRUTH, I have never seen such an example of what I consider the height of deception. 99% Truth and 1% error. I really do not think that the author realized what he was saying, it is such a part of the modern American way of thinking.

 

So that you know that I can be deceived. Someone shared this devotional with me, because they know what I teach and live. My first response to them was Wow! That is unusually fantastic!

 

I do not get the credit for seeing the error. It was the spirit within me that tries all things in my life, that nudged my thoughts and said, something is wrong there. I reread it and again, Wow. there was a statement that was totally false according to the Bible, according to the heart of God, and I had missed it. It is, I believe the root of error which may go back as far as the reformation, just an opinion.

 

So come on AVDRider, be brave, pray for the Holy Spirit's Wisdom, and read it again. This error has to do with God's fundamental nature.

 

I promise that I will not put you or anyone else down for missing it.

 

As I am writing and thinking about people that I have been in discussion with in the past., some may not believe that any of the devotional is true. That could be another reason why there may not have been any comments.

 

I do not believe it is sin to be wrong or deceived, it is only wrong to rebel against Holy Spirit revealed Truth.

 

Since I was unexpectedly brought to the C&MA site, my entire effort has been to reveal Truth that has been given to me, not to put any one down for what they believe which just does not happen to be supported by the Spirit of the Word of God. ...or to support any doctrine.

 

If the apostles believed that they lived in the last days, we must be in the last days. They wrote letters, to defend the 'truth' against false teachers. I ask, how much more is Satan acting as any Angel of Light today, and deceiving any that do not passionately desire an intimate relationship with God, and to know the Spirit of TRUTH?

 

It is ONLY the Holy Spirit that will and can keep us from being deceived!!

 

So, again I encourage you, "Know the Truth and the Truth will set you free" don' just make and effort, do it!! Smile!

 

Looking forward to your reply!!! It has really been hard for me to wait for answers!! Smile But, I do not consider this to be mine, I am obeying the Holy Spirit, to the best of His revealed knowledge to me.



#6 ADVRider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:29 PM

How many preachers do you know that really believe and teach, “that you can live without sin”, free from all sin in your life, completely rescued and delivered?

 

 

Based on the other thread and the dialogue with Charlie, I am guessing this is what you think is wrong with Tozer's devotional? 

 

I do not know any preachers who preach that actually. Are you saying you are never, ever, going to sin again? Or are you saying in effect, it's possible not to? 



#7 Tkulp

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:20 PM

Well first of all I need to correct what I take is an assumption that the devotional that I am quoting was written by Tozer. If that is what you are thinking, that is NOT correct.

 

I intentionally did not say where the devotional came from or who wrote it, but it did not come from anyone associated with the C&MA. I do not want to ill toward that person nor any one that they may be associated with.

 

Since you mention Tozer, how about if we take a look at what He believes and writes. As a matter of fact just yesterday's devotional.

It is entitled "Loving Obedience" ...a partial quote... < https://www.cmallian...ns/tozer?id=745 >

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Our Lord gave us a rule by which we can test our love for Him: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him. . . . If a man love me, he will keep my words. . . He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings (John 14:21-24).

These words are too plain to need much interpreting. Proof of love for Christ is simply removed altogether from the realm of the feelings and placed in the realm of practical obedience. I think the rest of the New Testament is in full accord with this.

Verse

Jesus replied, If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. . . .  John 14:23-24a"

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

My understanding of Tozer's beliefs are that we should look like Jesus Christ, That is my belief also, because that is what I read in the Bible. Now about sin.

 

Simply put sin is known disobedience, to God's wishes, His commands. My understanding of what Tozer is saying in his devotional yesterday, is that we if we love God we will keep His commandments. If not keeping His commandments is sin, than Loving God and keeping His commandments is holiness, purity and living without sin.

 

Hear is what John believes as he states in 1 John 3:3-7  "And everyone who has this hope focused on him purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure). Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness. And you know that Jesus was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous."
 

The entire chapter 3 lays out the sin question fairly clearly.

 

I gave that first and now I will answer your question... I am trying to say what 1 John 2:1-5 says,  "(My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. ) But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous One, and he himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we have come to know God: if we keep his commandments.  The one who says "I have come to know God" and yet does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in such a person. But whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has been perfected. By this we know that we are in him."

 

The book of 1 John was a book that I would read over and over along with Peter, Ephesians and the Gospels, as I desired to be like Jesus and to know His and the Father's hearts.

 

I am glad to hear that you are reading the Charlie thread, If you carefully have read Charlies posts you would have picked up that Charlie does not believe the main body of the devotional above. Here is part of what Charlie believes, and I quote:

 

"You seem to say that we have to stop sinning to enter heaven, is that correct? And secondly you say “Jesus did it, so can we”. I can say, for sure, that sin will not enter heaven but it will be because those who enter have the cloak of God`s own righteousness wrapped around them.....given by grace to those who have accepted Jesus as their savior.

I have never known or heard of anyone working hard enough to “live it just like Jesus”."

 

I have not directly felt to reply to these comments due to other more important issues that needed communicating. So you know and Charlie if he is reading along, what I believe and say is what I see as the Spirit of the Word of God. If you find anything in my blog or posts that is not in the Bible, I need to have it called to my attention and I need to correct it!

 

Before I get to involved in defending the 'faith' I want to again directly address you guess and question.

 

Sorry your guess is twice wrong, but THANKS for giving it a shot!!!!!

 

As stated, the devotional is NOT Tozer's and the idea or concept of a Christian looking like Jesus is not wrong. If Jesus' Spirit is to live within us and we are to be dead, than that would say, if you saw me you would see Jesus, correct? If Jesus is to be in me, as Paul teaches, and He really is there, and I am dead, a living sacrifice, than that would say that since Jesus did not sin, and lived for the will of the Father, that my body, under Jesus' control would not sin. I will only sin when "ME" my old selfish man in the flesh, is alive and in control.

 

If I were to say that I would never sin again, I would consider it to be arrogant pride. I am saying with Jesus Christ in control, as the Word of God says that He is supposed to be, He will not sin, it is not in His Nature.

 

Problem with modern beliefs is that most of what is spoken of about the Word of God is assumption and presumption, which means that people believe things about themselves that has absolutely on fruit of evidence of fact. Jesus taught that a tree is known by the fruit it produces. If your life produces lemons then you are a lemon tree. If your life produces apples you are an apple tree. We are given many ways to test and evaluate what our lives produce that we may know what kind of tree we are.

 

You are a Champ for trying ADVRider, a step above all other readers!!! Why? Because you tried, right or wrong, you did something!! Thanks again!!

 

By-the-way, I am curious, did you do what I suggested? "So come on AVDRider, be brave, pray for the Holy Spirit's Wisdom, and read it again. This error has to do with God's fundamental nature."

 

Brave you definitely were, but did you pray, did you seek the Word of God for Truth?

 

Look forward to hearing from you again!!
 



#8 ADVRider

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 01:51 PM

Hi Tim,

 

Thanks for all you effort here. It's very clear you are passionate about the Word and this topic in particular. Unfortunately for many of the readers, I think they are not all that familiar with the doctrine of Entire Sanctification. You might have more people jump in if you kind of bring the idea in fully, rather than the quiz approach to discussion. And again, I think there are some who might not know where you are coming from on this. 

 

As for me, I probably agree with you on many points and possibly disagree on some, but I generally do not have a desire to do drawn-out theological discussion on a forum, especially on topics that can be debated ad nauseum; it's just too tedious for me for various reasons. I am usually the short-answer guy and similar to Charlie (according to your assessment); I do not look up chapter and verse for everything I post. I often assume the readers have a modicum of biblical background to assess the statements. If my points are taken as encouraging and truthful, great. If not, then, I stand corrected. That, apparently, has not been satisfactory for some here in the past. They wanted a fencing contest, which I will not submit to in cyber space. I am not saying this is your stance, BTW. I am just trying to clarify my motivation for coming on here occasionally.

 

Lastly, the doctrine itself is not universally held by all Christians; some traditions (or individuals) even consider it heresy, hardly an endorsement by all. Just sayin', even though I am not saying that. And of course, they read the same scriptures. So, for the reasons I've listed, I will not likely respond further on this topic. Not wimping out on you Tim, just don't have the energy for the level of dialogue I think you are looking for. 



#9 Tkulp

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 12:46 PM

Thanks again ADVRider!!!

 

Depth, like many other things, is a matter of personal opinion. The issue of the above devotional is not something deep, in my opinion. I see it as something rather basic.

 

But once again I want to express my appreciation for you try.

 

I would encourage everyone to a passionate desire to not be deceived. God is very faithful in warning everyone as he did Cain in Genesis 4. If we do not head his warnings, for me that gets rather scary, as I believe the writer of letter to the Hebrews talked about falling into the hands of a Holy God.

 

I am going to make my posts, when I do, a bit more compact and to the point.

 

As far as answering the question, I feel like I need to wait for someone else to read the clues of our little conversation here and take another effort to share the Truth of the Word of God.

 

I did not, as of 5-10 ago 'delight myself' in the Word of God. I really do delight, not just in the Word, but in having the Holy Spirit point things out to me that I had never seen before. Reading the Bible used to be like reading a book over for the 10th time, you always knew what was coming next. Since the Spirit controls all of my time, I can not wait to get back into the Word to see what He has for me.

 

Now I am like a Sports addict, all that I can talk about is the Word. No 'have to' have a devotional time!!

 

Pop in any time, welcome your comments, just do not expect me to always agree if I see something different in the Scriptures!



#10 Candice

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 08:23 AM

The idea of this thread seems to be a matter of being entirely obedient.  Obedience is trusting the Lord I would say.  Trusting Him in all things.  Doesn't mean we will not sin here or there unintentionally. 



#11 Tkulp

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:47 PM

Thanks Candice for your input. One of my favorite hymns, "Trust and Obey", for there is no other way to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey!!

 

Obedience is probably one of, if not the most important element in any relationship of son to father, bride to Christ, child to parent, wife to husband, etc.

 

Humility and submission is an essential part of the picture in peer-to-peer relationships.

 

But..... as to this thread.... I started it to bring attention to how easy it is to be 'deceived'.

It is very sad that no one, to date, has mentioned the 'truth' of the devotional, in the first post, or find the 'error'.

 

Maybe it is being established that it is very easy to be deceived, since no one seems to be able to find the biblical error in the devotional in the first post and included below.

 

The church seems to have problems with 'truth and error' which I believe Tozer had a rather good description of one area of error, in his devotional today.

https://www.cmallian...ns/tozer?id=758

 

I might have used the words purity, holiness, etc. to describe what is missing in the church, rather than 'quality'. Tozer, himself may have other words if he was living today, to describe what is happening in the 'church'. 

 

I was in High School when he passed into eternity. Just about the time that prayer and bible reading were removed from the public education system. If he thought that the emphasis was on things other than the 'quality' of a Christians life in his day, it is much worse today. I think that a large part of the 'world' had better morals at that time than the people in the 'church' have today.

 

I was raised with a C&MA pastor for a father. I can remember my parents struggling with the issue of buying a loaf of bread on Sunday or not, as stores, in my youth were just beginning to stay open on Sunday. Dancing, movies, pool, cards were all tools of Satan to keep the 'flesh' alive and well.

 

Thanks again for your post!

Tim

 

The following is the devotional that contains a statement that does not agree with the Bible.

 

And they recognized that they had been with Jesus. - Acts 4:13

A Christian should be a striking likeness of Jesus Christ. You have read lives of Christ, beautifully and eloquently written, but the best life of Christ is His living biography, written out in the words and actions of His people. If we were what we profess to be, and what we should be, we would be pictures of Christ; yes, such striking likenesses of Him that the world would not have to hold us to the mirror and say, “Well, it seems somewhat of a likeness”; they would, when they saw us, exclaim, “He has been with Jesus; he has been taught by Him; he is like Him; he has caught the very idea of the holy Man of Nazareth, and he works it out in his life and everyday actions.”

A Christian should be like Christ in his boldness. Never blush to own your Christianity; your profession will never disgrace you: Take care you never disgrace that. Be like Jesus, very valiant for your God.

Imitate Him in your loving spirit; think kindly, speak kindly, and do kindly, that men may say of you, “He has been with Jesus.” Imitate Jesus in His holiness. Was He zealous for His Master? So should you be, going about doing good. Do not waste time; it is too precious. Was He self-denying, never looking to His own interest? Be the same. Was He devout? Then be fervent in your prayers. Did He defer to His Father’s will? So submit yourselves to Him. Was He patient? So learn to endure. And best of all, as the highest portraiture of Jesus, try to forgive your enemies, as He did; and let those sublime words of your Master, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” always ring in your ears. Forgive, as you hope to be forgiven. Heap coals of fire on the head of your enemy by your kindness to him. Good for evil, remember, is Godlike.

Be Godlike then; and in all ways and by all means so live that all may say of you, “He has been with Jesus.”



#12 Tkulp

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 11:17 AM

Candice,

 

I am daily excited about how God works. Since I have come to the C&MA website because of AB Simpsons devotional, I have switched to reading the Tozer devotional most. I rarely ever read Simpson's.

After replying to you and including Tozer's Devo on the lack or purity in the church I was lead to read Simpson's devo today. Simpson is expressing the only way to have purity in your life, a living death and rebirth. When you get it a person does not think about sin any more, you are too busy walking the path of life with the best friend you ever could have. A little like being in love for the first time. The room can fall down around your ears and all that you see or hear is your lover!!

 

I know that this does not deal with error in the church directly, but it really does!!! Both Simpson and Tozer are dealing with Truths that the modern 'church'(not the real body of Christ) has lost! The real Body of Christ has not lost anything!! They are in love!!! The world and all that it has to offer is the worst of prostitutes. The world is only for the worldly minded and the double minded, those that lack wisdom and have never really intimately "known" and walked with the Deliverer!! Maybe that does not include those that have starved themselves from the Word and have been deceived or seduced by the sensuousness of the world. Yes, I do believe that there are those, like Judas, who have started the walk and been lured to eternal death, because they have not totally died to the 'self-life'.

 

https://www.cmallian...mpson?mmdd=0323

 

"...the teaching of the cross is that humanity must die and sink out of sight and then be resurrected...Resurrection is....a new supernatural life lifting us from nothingness into God and making us partakers of the divine nature. It is a new creation."

 

 

https://www.cmallian...ns/tozer?id=759

 

"As long as we can keep the whole thing at arm's length and deal with it academically we may preach and write about it at little or no real cost to ourselves and, it must be admitted, with no real advance in godliness."

 

To a new life in Christ Jesus!!!

 

Tim



#13 Even so

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:26 AM

I wonder if you are thinking about this section: "And best of all, as the highest portraiture of Jesus, try to forgive your enemies, as He did; and let those sublime words of your Master, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do,” always ring in your ears. Forgive, as you hope to be forgiven. Heap coals of fire on the head of your enemy by your kindness to him."

I wonder if this section might be understood to be mixing up love with forgiveness. Perhaps you might interpret the author to be saying that Christians should pass over sin and 'close our eyes' to it--not exposing sin for what it is--rebellion against God, but Christian love should excuse sin even without repentance?

Evan
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#14 Even so

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:57 AM

Keep in mind, Tim, that this devotional has been wrenched from its original context--a spoken sermon--and shortened, reworded, and reinterpreted. It was a sermon from someone who also said this:

And now, my dear friends, the fault of the Corinthians is the fault of the present age. Let not any one of you, as he goeth out of the house of God, say unto his neighbour. "How did you like the preacher? What did you think of the sermon this morning?" Is that the question you should ask as you retire from God's house? Do you come here to judge God's servants? I know it is but a small thing unto us to be judged of man's judgment; for our judgment is of the Lord our God; to our own Master we shall stand or fall. But, O men! ye should ask a question more profitable unto yourselves than this. Ye should say, "Did not such-and-such a speech strike me? Did not that exactly consort with my condition? Was that not a rebuke that I deserve, a word of reproof or of exhortation? Let me take unto myself that which I have heard, and let me not judge the preacher, for he is God's messenger to my soul: I came up here to be judged of God's Word, and not to judge God's Word myself." But since there is in all our hearts a great backwardness to self-examination, I shall lay out myself for a few minutes this morning, earnestly to exhort myself, and all of you, to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith.

I think with this post you are in fact trying to state this same thing, but I fear you may be coming across to people as abrasive. to be honest though, what is rough will only become polished by what is abrasive, so I commend your zeal and passion for the pure truth of the word.

Evan

#15 Tkulp

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 02:24 PM

A Very Warm Welcome to a Newbie!! Hi Evan!!

 

Maybe you remind me of my self, in the tendency to overwhelm. No, not really, I am trying to change my style from proving everything with Scripture, to stating the Truth as simply and accurately as I can; leaving the proving Word of God for those that ask for it. While I am on that subject let me comment on your second post.

 

You say...

"I think with this post you are in fact trying to state this same thing, but I fear you may be coming across to people as abrasive. to be honest though, what is rough will only become polished by what is abrasive, so I commend your zeal and passion for the pure truth of the word."

 

It is hard to know how one is coming across without response. Abrasive, Yes, I can see that what is being written can be seen as abrasive, as I see the Word of God is abrasive for those that have wondered from the Truth. Since I am trying to encourage everyone to get into the Word of God and try the Spirits, a lot of what I write is simply the concepts of the Word. I can not take any credit for what I write, unless it is not Truth, than it is 'me' and I need to be corrected with the Scripture!

 

Now, for your answer! You are correct and you are not correct. Smile! You have quoted the exact sentences that contain the error, and are not supported by Scripture.

 

But,,,, you say.....

"I wonder if this section might be understood to be mixing up love with forgiveness. Perhaps you might interpret the author to be saying that Christians should pass over sin and 'close our eyes' to it--not exposing sin for what it is--rebellion against God, but Christian love should excuse sin even without repentance?"

 

No, I had not seen or thought about that concept. I would say that sin is sin, and yes it is generally rebellion or disobedience against God?? ...yes but more specifically against God's laws, founded on the Ten Commandments. First section of the commandments covers, love the Lord your God with all that you have and are. The second section deals with loving your Neighbor as yourself!

 

That which you quoted is dealing with the last section and specifically those that sin against us directly, not thought of as sinning against God, even though it is true that if we sin against a brother or person we come in contact with we are disobeying God!

 

Really good thought! The error that I see is more obvious than that. It is a statement that is directly opposed to what the Bible says. So now that you know where it is, I will tell you that two small words cause the error.

 

Ok, one more correction, you say,

"Keep in mind, Tim, that this devotional has been wrenched from its original context--a spoken sermon--and shortened, reworded, and reinterpreted. It was a sermon from someone who also said this:"

 

From your understanding, what you say may be true, but in reality it is not. It has been so long ago that a friend shared the devotional with me that I have forgotten all the details. That required me to do a bit of research to find out the facts. I had thought it came from a pastors recent sermon and so did not give the name or web site.

 

The fact is that this is a direct copy out of two devotionals  by C. H. Spurgeon, "Morning By Morning" and "Morning & Evening". Yes the devotionals appear to be quotes out of his sermons. If you would like to read his entire sermon that this particualas devotion is from it is printed here,  Sermon on Acts 4:13   http://www.spurgeon....ermons/0021.php

 

The devotional is roughly 99% pure quotes from the message... "Delivered on Sabbath Morning, April 29, 1855, by the
REV. C. H. Spurgeon  At Exeter Hall, Strand."

 

I can see a pastor looking for message material, quoting Spurgeon and not giving him credit.

 

For the record, Spurgeon teaches some really great truths, but tends to cancel the Truth with tiny bits of misinterpretations of the word or like this small item of contradiction of Truth.

 

Finally I do pray that God will forgive those that have unknowingly misrepresented God's Truth.

 

Thank you again for jumping into my forum, please come back with the correct answer!!! You are definitely on the trail!!

 

Tim



#16 Even so

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:54 PM

i agree that the truth will seem abrasive. I also believe that the Spirit of Christ gives us confidence and strength to face the abrasive truth to make us like Christ. 120 grit sandpaper will scratch something until it has a 120 grit texture. 1000 grit steel wool will polish something by making it 1000 grit. Maybe my analogy breaks down because the truth isn't actually "gritty" but it is pure, undefined, holy, and good, and it should, if we yield to it, make us the same. But it will always seem gritty to us while we are dwelling in the flesh. It depends how we respond to truth. We can reject and hate it, or believe and love it.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

Sorry for saying the devotion was not accurate, if it actually is. I just briefly looked it up to find its context, and I skimmed a couple of parts of the sermon until I found the lines that you quote.

Would the two words that you are referring to be "try to"?

As born again, regenerated Christians, we do have the Spirit of Christ in us, as we are members of His body. One might argue that there is no reason why we should try to forgive yet not succeed. Even further, that there ought to be no reason to have to try in the first place. It should be our natural inclination, since Christ has forgiven us our sins and given us Life. But we will have to try, since as I said before, we dwell in sinful flesh, so we have to resist the impulse of our sinful flesh to withhold forgiveness and harbour bitterness and anger, and we must walk after the Spirit, so as not to gratify the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:18)

Of course I may me completely off track here from what you see. If so, forgive my rambling.

Evan

Ah, reading it again, I am quite sure that those two words tacked on before Christ's own are the ones you object to. How foolish and sinful we are to add to the words of the One who is True.

#17 Even so

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 03:59 PM

Yet reading it again, it could be that he says "hope to" rather than "have been" which is an issue of faith.
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#18 Tkulp

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:28 PM

The idea of 'hope" is is not an element of Jesus' idea of forgiving others!!! 

 

Error: Forgive, as you hope to be forgiven.

 

Truth: Mat 6:12  ....and forgive us our debts, as we ourselves have forgiven our debtors.

 

There is one more word that is not true!

 

By the way, can you send me the link or links to the site that you had found the devotional on, just curious.

 

Originally I was refered to   http://www.christian...ext-article-box

to read the Feb. 11 devotional.



#19 Tkulp

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 08:32 AM

Well Evan, I am not sure if you are still reading here, but I have a confession to make!

 

I am not sure what happened to my eyes!!! I am writing a post about error and several weeks after the fact, I am wondering why you did not find both the words. I came back to edit my response to your short post on "hope", to make it clearer. I doing so I was rereading your long post and discovered that I had missed the fact that you found both words that were in error. "Try and Hope"!

 

I believe that there is a really good lesson here!

 

I evidently read what you wrote as some people read the Bible!    How I was 'blind" to what you said is beyond me, but it was as if you had not written it, my eyes did not see the word 'try".

 

Well, from the subject that we are talking about, I know that you will accept my apology, and forgive me!!!!

 

I did not consider you to be rambling, but you are forgiven!! Smile!!

 

I, more than obviously, did not closely read your post, so as I believe in repentance, smile, I have read it several times, and find that we may, if I am reading what you say correctly have some disagreements.

 

Here is what you wrote;

"But we will have to try, since as I said before, we dwell in sinful flesh, so we have to resist the impulse of our sinful flesh to withhold forgiveness and harbour bitterness and anger, and we must walk after the Spirit, so as not to gratify the desires of the flesh. (Galatians 5:18)"

 

Before addressing the content, the sentence reminds me of my own long sentences, that my daughter gets on to me about. I am really trying to change!!! Long sentences can be hard to follow. I did have to smile as I am reading and rereading what you wrote, trying to follow your thoughts!!

 

The root, potential, problem that I see is in "Gal 5:18  But "if" you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law."

It seems to be the little words that can cause problems in what people believe as truth. Too many people presume that they have the Holy Spirit, when there is no evidence of the the Holy Spirit. "If" you are a good tree you will produce 'good' fruit. We can easily test our lives, as the Word says to, by what we say, what we meditate on and what we do, and where we hang out.

 

Yes "if" Christ is in you, you will not have to 'try' as you walk, are guided by, the Spirit, you will be always thinking the heart of God.  Jesus talked about fulfilling the 'Law', it is no longer what you do "which is the Law" it is what you think, entertain in the mind, meditate on, that God is looking at.  "If" you hate you have already, in God's mind and before doing the legal act of breaking the Law, done the sin of murder. God looks at the heart, our mind, will, etc.

 

Thanks again Evan, I really appreciate you coming on board to answer this issue. I still can not believe that I totally missed you correct answer. I pray that God will forgive so many people that are missing.

 

 

P.S.   I did not highlight, as I have reread my post, another little word, which was what Spurgeon used, which turned a very good thought into error. The little word "try". You might go back to where I begin to quote you. Both of us use the idea of "try" and "trying". 

 

Can we not do better than "try"? What kind of surgeon would you want to operate on you? ... one that is skilled and accomplished or one that is 'trying'?

 

What kind of pilot do you want flying the plane? ...one that is a perfect pilot with lots of experience and proven ability, or one that is 'trying'?

 

Doesn't the world use the phrase, "Practice makes Perfect"?

 

I am involved with a family using A Beka Academy Video Curriculum. The teachers are all well trained Baptists.

 

Often, in Bible class, the teachers will emphasize their belief that the children, teachers and parents must sin every day and how no one is "perfect"!  Later in math, as they are encouraging the students to accomplish the skill of mental math, they say, "You know that practice make perfect!"

 

Oh, how subtle Satan is in deceiving!  Perfection is ok for the 'World', but it is heresy for the 'church'.

I long for people that call themselves by the name of Christ to wake up, repent, love the Lord with all their heart, invite His Holy Spirit within to have TOTAL control!



#20 BHerr

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 12:24 PM

I really appreciate the difference you've pointed out between trying and being skilled. I wouldn't want to go to a doctor or fly with a pilot who wasn't skilled. It seems someone who is just trying maybe doesn't do whatever it is very often. Obviously, someone who is skilled has been doing whatever it is regurlarly, for a while.

Hebrews 12:14, "Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, for without it no one will see the Lord."