38 replies to this topic

[ADVRider]

Shaun,

I'll try to more directly answer some of your specific questions later. They are honest questions. But one short answer. No one is saying the Holy Spirit speaking to a Christian today is adding to the word of God. It's simply specific guidance, admonishment, instruction, warning, rebuke, etc. for a person or situation they are going through. Most times, the Spirit calls to mind a scripture because it's already clear. But not always. God speaks occasionally to me via dreams. When He does that, He wants ME to know something important and specific. That's all it is. That's all it ever was. He said He'd do that and has since the beginning, and He chooses to. In one sense, try not to see this stuff as extraordinary, and the claims won't sound so fantastic. Just see it as it was all along; biblical then, biblical now.

[Charles Miles]

Shaun,  I guess I`m one of the ones here who take the Bible as truth and look upon it as the inspired Word of God.  I  try to read and study daily, but sometimes I can`t get enough time.   Let me start by saying I have never heard the audible voice of God.  I would so dearly love to hear Him speak, but so far, I`m not one of the ones that hear....although maybe some do hear.  The way I study the Word is that I go to my quiet place, sit down, pray, and ask the Holy Spirit to read with me.  Since He is the ultimate author, He knows much more about it than I.  To sit down and read the Bible is to do a good thing, but sometimes a passage will be crossed that seems to be "out of place" or have little, if any meaning.  Unless one reads with the One who wrote it, it is simply a book of very interesting stories about a people and a coming King, who arrives as the Son of God, then lives, dies, and is resurrected.  Reading WITH Holy Spirit, the whole book comes alive!  Passages that once were simply interesting, now become areas where I learn truths, learn about the Father, learn a principle that I had not seen before. You are calling that a "new revelation" from God to me.  Well, call it whatever you wish, but at that time, at that place, I know that the Lord wishes for ME to learn a truth that is, or will be needed in my life.  The danger here, as I see it, would be to run outside and shout that God has revealed a special message for me to give to the world and I`m the only one who has this truth.  My reading is most always for me and my life, and to bring me into a closer relationship with HiM.  Sometimes, when I teach a class, I will ask if anyone has ever read the scripture in question, and thought about it in this way.  Some have, some haven`t, and that is OK.    If you think this way of Bible study is wrong and I shouldn`t ask Holy Spirit to guide me, then I might suggest reading about Phillip and the Ethiopian general to whom he was sent.  Did the man in the chariot get a special, new revelation from God? Hmmm, well you know the story, so call it what you will.  It was certainly a revelation to the Ethiopian, and it changed his life.

 

You asked in a previous post if some of us had been through a "Damascus Road" experience like Paul`s, and did we think we are on the same "level" as Paul.  Well, Jesus has never appeared to me, I have never been struck blind, and I am not the theologian in Hebrew and Greek that Paul was.  I do not have the mission of Paul.  So no, I don`t think I am on the level of Paul, or even in the same league intellectually or theologically.  BUT, Paul and I do have some things in common....we worship the same God, believe His Son came, lived with us, died, was buried, rose on the third day, and now is at the right hand of the Father as our mediator.  Paul was a good man, a teacher, a disciple, a messenger, hand picked by Jesus to carry the gospel to the gentiles, and my brother in Christ(not my words, but his). Here`s the deal though.....I don`t try to be like Paul, although that would be a herculean effort, I try to be like Jesus, think like Jesus, act like Jesus, forgive like Jesus, and work at my life like I want to be like my Brother.....Jesus.  I fail, oh how I fail, and the failing hurts, but I will forever keep trying to work on those things.  I have a teacher, and He helps me to understand how to handle all this.  This teacher was sent by the Father to instruct, comfort, and council me as I work at this.  As He works in me, I work at being what I am supposed to be, and He tells me that God loves me more than I can imagine, even though I fail at my tasks.

 

To end my rambling, let me say that no, no Damascus Road experience here.....but there was a life changing experience for me a few years back and it changed my life as surely as Paul`s experience changed him.  We were just given different instructions on what to do from that point on. Paul did his very well.  I don`t always get mine as right as Paul got his, but I keep on trying.

 

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

 

Charlie

[ADVRider]

I am disturbed by some ideas here that in one sense state that they agree that the Bible is the full revelation of God.  And in the same breathe state that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them just as He did with the apostles.  Would that not be by definition new revelation by God?

 

Second, I am curious as to what parameters one ought to use to make sure that it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not their own thoughts, conscience.  Could someone spell out some steps one ought to take to make sure that it is truly the Holy Spirit who is speaking and not self?  Simply saying that as long as it does not contradict Scripture it is the Spirit, for then one would then have to state that our own conscience only speaks in contradiction to Scripture.

 

Charlie, I did not say you were silent, but the argument you were putting forth was based on silence (a.k.a. no positive evidence for position).  Also, the New Age comment was to ADV, I apologize for the confusion.  I was hoping to hit two birds with one stone, and failed miserably.

...that in one sense state that they agree that the Bible is the full revelation of God.  And in the same breathe state that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them just as He did with the apostles.  Would that not be by definition new revelation by God?

 

No, it would not be a new revelation of God as you are thinking of it. But you also have to realize, you seem to come from the school of thought that God does not speak to people anymore, because the Canon of scripture is established. So from that point of view, God speaking would appear to be additional revelation. IMO, that is the cause of confusion.

 

God has always spoken to His people, before, during and after the various books and letters of the Bible were recorded. Much of what He said ended up being recorded in the scriptures, Old and New. As we read, we can see much of what is said is historical, an account. But the account often is of God telling His people something they needed to hear. Some of these stories are not doctrine heavy per se, but they do show God spoke or acted in some way. Like the Holy Spirit prophesying that "chains awaited Paul." God still tells His children the same kinds of things today, it just doesn't make the Bible. In these cases, you have, in a sense, the Lord relaying information to His children. Some people call it revelation, but by that, they do not mean scripture. You could even call it divine intel, strategic info for the saints in the spiritual battle. So now, here is the real difference; communication from the Spirit is just that, for some of the reasons listed in my earlier post. It's not doctrine. That might be where you are getting thrown off. The Spirit speaking does not contradict Himself in the Bible. So no dream, vision, voice, impression, etc. has the force of doctrine. No Christian can say, God revealed to me in a vision that He really does not care about holiness or truth, etc. Furthermore, no Christian should claim that any such things has the weight of scripture, even if it is true. Having said that though, there are times the Holy Spirit will "reveal" something to a person that has to be followed or obeyed. The reason is simple: it is God who is revealing the thing and for a purpose. It would be like if you were in the military and you knew all the rules of war, all the strategies of war and all the procedures of an army and the rules of engagement, etc. That would be great. You would be highly prepared. For discussion, let's equate this to knowing the Bible. But in a battle, you need orders. You don't move without orders, regardless of your understanding of the rules of engagement. You don't move on what you think. You only go where and when your commander says "move out, retreat, flank," etc. So we need a voice, even if we are trained and commissioned. The Holy Spirit is the voice for the Christian until Jesus returns.

 

Second, I am curious as to what parameters one ought to use to make sure that it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not their own thoughts, conscience.  Could someone spell out some steps one ought to take to make sure that it is truly the Holy Spirit who is speaking and not self?  Simply saying that as long as it does not contradict Scripture it is the Spirit, for then one would then have to state that our own conscience only speaks in contradiction to Scripture.

 

This is a more difficult area. I already alluded in my other post that because people can be fleshly, carnal, sinful, etc. knowing when it is the Holy Spirit and when it is not involves discernment, and several kinds and layers of discernment, depending on what is being said or claimed. Someone who claims certain kinds of revelation that is impossible to prove or disprove like, "I was taken to heaven and God showed me everything...." is the type of thing that would require several levels of discernment. But let's start with the easier stuff.

 

What is the person saying God said? How did God say it? Does the content contradict scripture? Is the person mentally and emotionally stable (in the usual sense)? Do you know the person fairly well or really well and trust their walk with the Lord? Are they an attention hog who always needs affirmation? These would be some things to consider, even when it is assumed God does speak today. Kind of a vetting process. But we also have to guard against being too skeptical. Skepticism can decrease or increase with experience in these matters, depending on the answers to some of the above questions.

 

Secondly, often when God speaks to a person, it truly is just for them. Many times, they will tell no one, especially if they are mature. The oft repeated test of a prophet is, it must come true. However, we are still waiting on some OT prophecies to come true, meaning, some things God might say can take a long time. Some are conditional as well. If someone says the Lord told me such and such and we don't see it happen, that does not mean it wasn't God. Also, God might have said something but the person could have misunderstood it. If we get a prophecy or dream, for example, it's pertient we let God bring it to pass so we can see it is really Him and we don't mess it up by "helping God out." As mentioned, people are people; they can get it wrong for a variety of reasons. And that is why we do have to use discerment and test things to a degree. But not everything to the same level, because not every claim of God's speaking is of the same weight. In my zeal or my own desires, I've thought God spoke to me about some things that I wanted, but the "voice" was just me, not God. You learn by doing in a safe setting with others (counsel) and by making mistakes learning to hear God. It's a relationship with a living Being, not a computer program, so missteps will be made by fallible humans.

 

Now, onto the harder stuff. Thoughts, impressions and even emotions. These are for the mature and the seasoned. You asked how would you be able to tell God's voice from your own thoughts? Good question. It can be difficult, for the reasons already mentioned about carnality, distraction, sin, etc.

 

If a person is walking close to God, they will have a better chance of discerning the voice of God even in these subtler things. If one is distracted or not really after God, chances are they will not discern His Spirit in their daily activities. That said, God can speak through your thoughts, meaning, you could have a thought and it is Him prompting, speaking, giving you the idea right then. If you catch it, you have to weigh it using the other methods. Test it. Does it line up with what God is doing in your life generally? Does it line up with the Word? Or is it your carnal deisre just coming through your thoughts? I once realized, if I have a thought, it's either me, God or Satan. Learn to discern and be honest with yourself. Let other people you trust who have experience and maturity in these things weigh it and pray it through with you.

 

I have a friend who through much experience, knows God speaks to Him through emotion. He feels what God feels for other people. This has been proven out regularly in ministry settings. It seems weird, but God is limitless and uses human vessels. But this level takes experience, mistakes and more mistakes to get there. It takes faith and trust to step out. There is always a level of faith involved for the presence and voice of God, otherwise it would not be God. It would be us. And in truth, it often is because we want to hear things too easily. But often, it is God.

 

I realize this is all over the map and probably not written very clear, but one last thing. Some are afraid of the things of the Spirit because as people say, "it's too messy." "These people are nuts." "we cannot allow this in our church; things will get out of hand." Fair enough. So start in your own prayer closet and stay in there with it as long as you need. No harm in that. No one will know except you and God. BTW, the devil will know too, and he won't like it. Because you'll be better equipped to do damage to him if you hear God's voice for you and other people in your circle. Count on it. But don't be surprised either, if God does speak to you in some supernatural way, that you take it out of your prayer closet. I'd bet on that one.

 

Some might say, this whole topic cannot be the Lord, because, well, He is just more clear and organized than this. By that, they could conclude it's not worth the difficulty of not knowing combined with the trouble of having to learn. I say, the Lord is bigger, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. "Who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been His counselor." So whether by Word or by Spirit, we have to get to know Him. There really is no distinction between the two. If a person says there is, I say they are wanting to reject the Spirit because they assume they can know God using only their mind to interpret scripture. It seems more clear, because it can be read. But desire to also know with the heart, where the Spirit searches and reveals the deep things of Him. Those are the things only He knows, even about ourselves, but which He will reveal if we listen. And mostly, this will be through the scripture that He speaks. But go beyond our brain alone, we must, because God is too big to fit in there, certainly mine anyway. He doesn't dwell there; He dwells in our hearts through faith. Yes, this will take trust because even certainty only comes after belief. 

 

Parameters:

1. Pray 2. Test it against the word 3. Submit it to others if you are not sure. 4 Wait on God to bring it to pass. 5 Obey immediately if it is clear and understood that is what is expected (i.e. warning; "Joseph took Mary to Egypt that night" type of thing) 6) Let God interpret what He said if you don't know and wait until it's clear, similar to 4. 7) Start out small and slow 8) Don't worry too much if you "miss it." You'll learn to laugh at yourself. 9) This is a life-long relationship; do you fully understand your spouse yet?

 

I'd still recommend Jack Deere's books, if you're interested in a better and fuller answer.

[Shaun DuFault]

AWD,

 

Thanks for take the time to respond.  I will intereact soon.

[Shaun DuFault]

AWD,

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond, and my apologies for my tardiness in reply. 

 

It is obvious that we have an issue of definition.  Let me define revelation for our further discussions: God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures.  Now, you state the following, “God has always spoken to His people, before, during and after the various books and letters of the Bible were recorded.”  How does the term, ‘revelation’ not mean what you stated here?  Is not your contention that the Holy Spirit speaks His will for you to you?  What would you call it?  Also, is there some Scriptural basis for the support of your statement?  Throughout your answer, you use ‘revelation’ on a few occasions.  I just cannot see this difference.  If there were a distinct difference then it would seem that you are not demonstrating it through the context of your response or I am lacking understanding.

 

You state, “often when God speaks to a person, it truly is just for them…”  This is a very curious statement.  Is this a ‘modern’ understanding of how God works?  To whom did God speak to in the Scriptures that it was always just for the individual? 

 

Why would the creator of the universe use such a means of communication that was not clear and prone to so much error?  Which prophets of old misunderstood what God told them (there is a difference in misunderstanding and disobeying), wrote prophecies down in error, who did not get the clear picture right away?”  It would seem that what you laid out is a lot of work that seems prone to much error.  We see in the Scriptures that when God spoke, it was with clarity.  In fact does not Hebrews 1 state, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Heb 1:1-2 ESV)

 

You mention the following

 

But desire to also know with the heart, where the Spirit searches and reveals the deep things of Him. Those are the things only He knows, even about ourselves, but which He will reveal if we listen. And mostly, this will be through the scripture that He speaks. But go beyond our brain alone, we must, because God is too big to fit in there, certainly mine anyway. He doesn't dwell there; He dwells in our hearts through faith.

 

Could you define heart here?  I do not think you mean the literal muscle pumping blood but you reject the idea of the mind/brain.  Doesn’t Jeremiah state that the heart of man is evil?  You mention that the Holy Spirit will mostly use Scripture but not all the time, why is this?  How does this relate to 2^nd Timothy 3:16-17?   If Paul says is true that Scripture is God-breathed and is useful to make the man of God complete, equipped for every good work, why all the extra faulty, laborious steps? 

 

I am curious as to what gives us the authority to assume that the way God interacted with the relatively few people that it can be extrapolated to all.  Let me explain.  It would seem that the example of the warning Joseph received regarding the need to escape to Egypt was particular to the situation at hand.  In fact, could we not rightly argue that it seems that God only spoke this way to Joseph the adopted father of Jesus twice?  In Acts two, we see that there was over 3,000 souls along with the initial 120 who became the ‘church’.  Yet, we also find out that only the apostles did any of the signs and wonders (granted a few of the Seven deacons do so but later on).  If what I understand what you say is true, shouldn’t the other 3,108 be able to do signs and wonders as well?  I hope you see where I am coming from.  In other words, it would seem that you are drawing from very special interactions that God has with a few of His people and stating that this is normative, not the exception to the rule.  Maybe one more illustration would be helpful.  If Moses’ interaction with God was to be the normal means by which God moves, why was it only with Moses did God do this with in all of Scripture?  Why didn’t God do this will all the Chosen people of Moses’ day, if that was normative? 

 

If I read you right, experiences seem to dictate what is true and not an objective standard like Scripture.  This is a bit troubling to me.  Would you agree that the parameters you outlined are based on subjectivity of the individual based on ‘experiences’ and not necessarily on Scriptural parameters alone?  They all seem well intended, but where do they come from?  It would seem that this might work for you but how do you know it works for everyone?  It would seem to be fairly random and at the same time subjective in nature. If I error, I apologize and hope you can help clarify the Scriptural foundation. 

 

Again, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my concerns and questions.  I hope I was thoughtfully engaging what you wrote and look forward to your reply.

[ADVRider]

Hey Shaun,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I'll have to go over it again carefully and try to respond.

I have to say though, I think it's possible we are coming at this from quite opposite viewpoints. I have some theological training and am quite conservative in my thinking (as an FYI for you), but I'm probably not the most interested or able apologist type, especially on a forum. I prefer to stay on the practical side of things. That said, when I get a moment, I'll try my best to answer. It's possible we are simply dancing around definitions, but I do suspect it's a bit more than that.

If you don't mind, What is your view on the continuation of spiritual gifts, especially as listed in 1 Cor. 12? I ask only because I am what could be called (my term) a full continuationist. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

Last little thought for now; when I say normative for today, I'm not implying every Christian is going to have the exact same experience (or calling, or assignment or even relationship with God) as another Christian. But I am saying every Christian can have the same "type" of experience today. Different, but the same, even the same as an apostle, or Joseph. Shaun, why would you be less a child of God than those of old, that He would not speak to you today in some way, for example? Are you not familiar with modern day testimonies like I mentioned of Jesus appearing in dreams? These are real. If you are hung up on the subjectivity thing, you'll likely never be convinced. Let me ask, Did you feel anything at conversion? Not that a person has to, but some people do. That salvation experience had a subjective component to it, for that person. They could describe it, but because it wasn't you or me, they could never "prove" it. If you have an experience of some kind (it could even be a false experience), it has a reality, no matter how subjective. Now I'm not implying here that all experience is in line with God's will, just that experience itself has a substance. If you say God showed you a vision, I cannot rule that out. Why? It's biblical and I believe He still does those things. I can ask you a lot about it to discern what He showed you, but that's about it. I'll say more later, but yes, God speaks clearly. But we are flesh; we don't always hear clearly. Do you doubt that? Read what Jesus said about people "hearing" in the gospels. Moreover, what man could claim full understanding of the written Word by the use of intellect alone? Point being, we need the illumination of the Spirit even for this, and without it, we are still not clear on who God is and all that He is.

Later.
ADV

[Charles Miles]

Shaun,

I notice that you are a pastor and are in an Alliance church, so as far as I`m concerned, that makes you a special person and a shepherd. Like ADV, I am not an apologist to any great degree, but your last post does cause me just a tad of concern. Is it OK if I ask a question or two? You express concern that ADV stated that often God speaks to a person and it is for that person alone. Your concern causes me concern since you are a pastor. Like ADV said, maybe we are dancing around definitions here, and a conversation such as this is best held in person, but here we are....where we are. God speaking to one person and that information being just for that person....is certainly not any "modern" understanding of how God works. Holy Spirit is our comforter, instuctor, and reminder of the words Christ said. He also convicts us and shows us paths to take. God sent Him here to do just that, and in fact, He is God and has all the same attributes. God does speak to individuals about things that pertain only to them as well as others, but most of the time His message comes through scriptural study and prayer. Let me ask you something here. Have you ever prayed about a huge, devistating, unbearable, crushing, personal problem and asked for God`d help? Did you actually believe God would answer you personally? Did you believe God answeres prayers from His children with whom He has a personal relationship? Now please allow me to ask a very personal question, and please do not be offended, because it is actually a question to further try to explain my own personal concerns expressed above. If one does not believe God speaks to individuals about personal issues that pertain to them, why pray at all? I know you do pray and I know that you know God does respond and reply to His children on an individual as well as a corporate manner. Some may call God`s answer to prayer a "revelation", I simply call it the Father`s answer to my problem....and usually it is only for me.

I will say this though, I am usually directed to a particular area of the Bible that has a message for me there. Usually my problem is solved in a way that I would never have even dreamed of, maybe the problem goes away, or maybe I am given peace about what it is and all worry about it is removed. Whatever it is, I give it over to God and let Him deal with it as He will, and He has never failed me yet. Is this a "revelation"? Well in fact, it usually is a revelation to me how the problem is dealt with, but in reality it is an answer to prayer.

Your brother in Christ,

Charlie

[ADVRider]

AWD,

Thank you for taking the time to respond, and my apologies for my tardiness in reply.

It is obvious that we have an issue of definition. Let me define revelation for our further discussions: God's disclosure of Himself and His will to His creatures. Now, you state the following, “God has always spoken to His people, before, during and after the various books and letters of the Bible were recorded.” How does the term, ‘revelation’ not mean what you stated here? Is not your contention that the Holy Spirit speaks His will for you to you? What would you call it? Also, is there some Scriptural basis for the support of your statement? Throughout your answer, you use ‘revelation’ on a few occasions. I just cannot see this difference. If there were a distinct difference then it would seem that you are not demonstrating it through the context of your response or I am lacking understanding.

You state, “often when God speaks to a person, it truly is just for them…” This is a very curious statement. Is this a ‘modern’ understanding of how God works? To whom did God speak to in the Scriptures that it was always just for the individual?

Why would the creator of the universe use such a means of communication that was not clear and prone to so much error? Which prophets of old misunderstood what God told them (there is a difference in misunderstanding and disobeying), wrote prophecies down in error, who did not get the clear picture right away?” It would seem that what you laid out is a lot of work that seems prone to much error. We see in the Scriptures that when God spoke, it was with clarity. In fact does not Hebrews 1 state, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. (Heb 1:1-2 ESV)

You mention the following

Could you define heart here? I do not think you mean the literal muscle pumping blood but you reject the idea of the mind/brain. Doesn’t Jeremiah state that the heart of man is evil? You mention that the Holy Spirit will mostly use Scripture but not all the time, why is this? How does this relate to 2^nd Timothy 3:16-17? If Paul says is true that Scripture is God-breathed and is useful to make the man of God complete, equipped for every good work, why all the extra faulty, laborious steps?

I am curious as to what gives us the authority to assume that the way God interacted with the relatively few people that it can be extrapolated to all. Let me explain. It would seem that the example of the warning Joseph received regarding the need to escape to Egypt was particular to the situation at hand. In fact, could we not rightly argue that it seems that God only spoke this way to Joseph the adopted father of Jesus twice? In Acts two, we see that there was over 3,000 souls along with the initial 120 who became the ‘church’. Yet, we also find out that only the apostles did any of the signs and wonders (granted a few of the Seven deacons do so but later on). If what I understand what you say is true, shouldn’t the other 3,108 be able to do signs and wonders as well? I hope you see where I am coming from. In other words, it would seem that you are drawing from very special interactions that God has with a few of His people and stating that this is normative, not the exception to the rule. Maybe one more illustration would be helpful. If Moses’ interaction with God was to be the normal means by which God moves, why was it only with Moses did God do this with in all of Scripture? Why didn’t God do this will all the Chosen people of Moses’ day, if that was normative?

If I read you right, experiences seem to dictate what is true and not an objective standard like Scripture. This is a bit troubling to me. Would you agree that the parameters you outlined are based on subjectivity of the individual based on ‘experiences’ and not necessarily on Scriptural parameters alone? They all seem well intended, but where do they come from? It would seem that this might work for you but how do you know it works for everyone? It would seem to be fairly random and at the same time subjective in nature. If I error, I apologize and hope you can help clarify the Scriptural foundation.

Again, I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to my concerns and questions. I hope I was thoughtfully engaging what you wrote and look forward to your reply.

Hi Shaun,

After re-reading your reply, I think I am going to have a hard time giving you a satisfactory answer to most of your questions. I think I understand many of the points you are making, but I would not have the time to find specific verses for everything I am saying. I do believe though I am drawing on the evidence of the whole of scripture generally, the context and the tenor if you will.

Another difficulty for me is because I do not know you, I'm not super clear on what it is you are finding objectionable and troubling. I avoided calling the Holy Spirit speaking today, "revelation," mainly because I thought you had a problem with that noun being used for such. Some do object to using the word that way because they think that means if a person says, "God spoke to me," then the person is claming an additional or new revelation, equivalent to scripture. This is where they err; equating the two. Because of this misconception, those folks are very rigid on the idea that God stopped speaking after the scripture was written. I am not equating the two, and I thought that was your concern. So I avoided using the word. But the NT does use the word in that way, incidentally, in the context of the "average" Christian receiving a revelation. So if you don't have a problem with the Spirit speaking to His children being called "a revelation," then yes, no difference in that regard. But let me bring in the distinction again. Suppose you receive a dream tonight showing you some action or direction God wants you to take for your life. Is that revelation to you? Now think, would that be Holy Scripture? Now of course, if you do not believe this dream could take place, we do not have a problem of definition; we have an issue of belief. The reason I say that is because the example I just gave is entirely biblical. There are plenty of scriptural references for this type of God activity, from Genesis to Revelation. It seems to be really a question of, Does God do the same kinds of things today as before, and will He do them for me? Depending on how you answer these two questions will be everything. If you say "yes," then the Bible is full of possibilities. If you say "no," then....you'll look for proof in verses you won't find. This would be, IMO, the ultimate argument from silence; trying to prove God does not act from a Book that only records that He does act throughout history. Nothing in God's plan for the church has changed; it will continue until the return of Christ the same as when it was founded. The purpose for sending the Comforter hasn't changed. He wasn't sent to just get the church "off the ground," only to leave us on our own because the apostles laid the foundation and now "we have the instructions." His role hasn't changed and He is with us until the end. We need Him until the end. So why would we think He left? Where does that idea (cessationism) come from? I suggest it does not come from anywhere in the Bible itself. Furthermore, the early Christians are our brothers and sisters, not "super Christians" that are somethow more worthy than we are (some of them certainly had their own special assignment, but that is a different thing). You have to see this, or you'll continue to think they, and what happened to them, is "different." It's not different in terms of "kind," only in terms of their calling.

As far as your concept of clarity, not sure what to say. Are you clear on everything? Do you know everything there is to know about God? About His word, even written in your native tongue? Not picking on you here, just making a point. I am not suggesting a Post Modern lack of certainty here either, please don't misunderstand. I mentioned that God is clear, but Deity speaking to humanity sometimes creates a communication gap, to say the least. Discernment, prayer, revelation (there, I said it ) is required. Knowing is not the head knowledge kind, it's the intimate, experiential knowing, like you "know" you are saved. (BTW, this is what I mean when I say knowing with the heart. Spiritual things must be understood spiritually, not carnally or with the carnal mind). Again, can there be subjectivity involved? Of course. Can it lead to problems? Most certainly. Why do you think Paul instructs the charismatic Corinthians in the proper use of spiritual gifts? Did you ever ponder that? It's because the gifts of the Spirit are not a robotic expression; the Holy Spirit is speaking through human vessels and as such, mistakes can be made (not by the Spirit, but by the people). It can be messy, confusing and out of order. Whoa! Wait, this sounds like some crazy charismatic group or something. No, this was 1st century Corinth where these Christians were uttering all kinds of subjective, confusing nonsense. Hopefully, you can see what my facetiousness is saying. Anyhow, Paul told the elders to "judge" what ordinary Christians were uttering in the assembly. Clarity and certainty? The utterances had to be judged. It was the Holy Spirit. Or it was not. Hardly clear on the face of it. The need to judge it says it all; humans are involved. Paul's conclusion? Let it continue, just be orderly. Isn't it amazing that God is willing to partner with fickle, sinful and flawed beings? That He actually has the confidence His kingdom will be fulfiiled using us as His body? It's a risky partnership God made. You see, it's not about our smarts; it's about our hearts. God is less concerned that we "get it right." He is most concerned that "we be right," in the sense of the state of our heart. We can make mistakes and we will make mistakes. God will correct us if we are teachable and spiritually discerning. So, I am simply saying we don't know everything; not everything is clear just yet. We are certain of the things that have been established by faith in our hearts, yes. Those things the Holy Spirit has wrought. But we are still growing and we walk by faith; hardly full clarity and absence of subjectivity. Those won't fully leave until we leave our body.

Let me say it again. I am again not coming against knowing God or His word with some sense of clarity and certainty. I am not referring to a post modern "not knowing" or lack of absolute truth that can be known and declared. I am referring to the mysteries and the magnitude of the Eternal God. We are not capable of knowing all that He is without Him revealing Himself to us. That takes forever. Possibly as a pastor who has the requisite training, it's expected of you to "know" on behalf of the flock entrusted to you. But as an elder, you are still on the journey with them. I think, personally, the notion that you have to have all the answers for them is not what Jesus intended. We walk as a body together, and we all have some piece of the mystery of God as a body. It's okay for a little "I'm not sure, hey what do you think" kind of thing, even coming from the pastor. It shows you're still human, and that is okay, at least in my book. I realize this could be scary, too. The cousin to lack of clarity is lack of control. But realize, we are not really in control. That is a comforting illusion. God is in control; that is the true secure reality. But the rub comes when His reality comes against our fortified fantasy. Then, and only then, does true clarity come, and boy, can it ever come with a pound of ouch! Hey, that was free.

In the end here, I am not sure I even came close to answering your questions as you have posed them. In my opinion, all the evidence from scripture is right in front of you. You might be looking too hard to find though, what is not there. You suggest I am extrapolating; yes, exactly. The scriptures are all there for your example, as you say in Timothy. So instead of looking for every possible example that you won't find recorded, look to what is clearly there, the examples that are given and are sufficient for you and me to see and follow. You cannot always conclude things from what you don't find, as you say.

I responded to Christopher only because I've seen (I think I've already mentioned my reason) many Christians profess God does not act in the supernatural realm anymore. That is the domain of the devil and if some weird claim is stated, it's obviously not God. Sure, there are a lot of people who are crazy, off, sincere but wrong, deceptive, silly, or whatever. But none of this means God is still not the same as He has always been. BTW, when you said, Christians are not "supposed to dabble" in the supernatural, that reveals a little of the thinking we have no place there. No, we do not "dabble;" my view of the NT is that it is normal for believers to interact with the supernatural, and be acquainted with it. Paul says we should actually seek spiritual gifts and it is clear the early Christians operated in the supernatural in partnership with the Holy Spirit. So what has changed? Or when? I cannot really say anymore. I do understand you are asking sincere questions. I think the answers are in the Bible, in the preponderance of the evidence, the whole if you will. I recommended Jack Deere's books, not because I've read them, but because I know his story and his testimony. He had some of the same questions you have, and as a Dallas Seminary prof, his thinking was pretty much trained against such things as I am saying. He ended up losing his job over his then, new point of view expressed in his books. They might go into the level of detailed answers you are looking for and that I cannot give here in cyber land on limited time. I hope you are not offended by anything I might have said and that you will seek the Lord on these things, if you deisre to. You said it might work for me but not for others. What I am saying is for everyone, because all I am really saying is, have a relationship with God by faith and with the Holy Spirit. Remember, our walk is a walk of faith, not by sight. That means the norm is a walk where we are not in control and where often, there is a lack of clarity. Right? Otherwise, it would not require faith. And this has to be a real thing, or it's meaningless. As I once said, scary and exciting at the same time. Hmm...What does God want from me...? What is He up to...? Etc. But we know Whom we have believed in, because He dwells in our hearts and has persuaded us. Certainly not speaking of manufacturing experiences or living for them as though they are God in themselves. God will do what He wants to do in the relationship; just be open to Him and what He might do. Not saying more than that. But that does include, not putting Him in our mental box and ruling out what does not fit. Well, as Bugs said, That's all folks, goodnight.

Blessings Shaun!

[Shaun DuFault]

AWD

 

I do want to thank you for your effort in responding.  It seems that there is a bit of housekeeping to do here in helping our fellow readers (including us) out.  First, I wanted to respond to your previous comment where you mentioned not being an apologist.  I am unsure of such relevancy.  We are always to be prepared to give an answer for what we believe and be “Bereans” of the Word, whether we are an apologist or not.  Second, this conversation does not have much to do about cessationism vs continuationism in regards to the gifting of the Holy Spirit.  However, it has everything to do in regards to the sufficiency of Scripture.  In essence, the issue boils down to the following: “Does my human subjective experiences have equal weight with the objective Truth of Scripture?”  If I am reading you correctly (so far it seems so since there was no correction to my previous conclusions), not only would your answer be yes, but may go so far as to say that your human subjective experiences actually outweigh the objective Truth of Scripture.  How can I draw this conclusion?

 

Before getting to the matters at hand, I think it would be well to address a misconception regarding what cessationism is in contrast to continuationism.  The idea that cessationism would believe that the Holy Spirit would only be here to “jumpstart” the church and then leave is foreign to the term and to those who may hold such a position.  There is much more that can be said in correction, however as stated above, this is not the main thrust of my concern. 

 

Looking at your responses so far, there is little interaction with Scripture, especially 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Hebrews 1:1.  I am unsure as to why you may be sidestepping them.  It would seem what you are stating is that since Moses, Joseph, Elijah, and others listed in the Bible had these types of experiences communicating with God then it would seem that God must communicate the same way with us today.  Yet, where is this axiom found in Scripture?  How is it logically plausible that of the 1.6 million+ Israelis of Moses’ day, only Moses was spoken to by God ‘face to face,’ and yet we can insist that God does this for us today?  When God speaks to these men, which ones stated, “Not sure if this is from God or just something I made up….”?  You state, “but Deity speaking to humanity sometimes creates a communication gap…,” how do you know this?  Of all the prophets and apostles in Scripture which ones admitted to such an issue?  We see many reference to “Thus sayeth the Lord,” but I have not come across one which states, “Lord, say that again, not sure what you mean by that….”     

 

I do not have much more time to delve into this, but I did want to encourage you to reread 1 Cor. 14 which I believe you were alluding to in your response.  I am a bit curious as to why the Holy Spirit needed to correct something that the Holy Spirit started in the first place.  If God initiates such a messy form of communication (though there seems to be little to no evidence from Scripture), why would He then have to correct this form at the same time?  Upon further reading of the passage, it would be that Paul is bringing order, because God is a God of order.  Better yet, Paul here also desires that our minds are engaged in worship as well, not just the “heart”. (1 Cor. 14:13-19)  Now you may be speaking of other passages in the letters written to the church in Corinth, if so, what exactly are these pertinent passages.  You state, “where these Christians were uttering all kinds of subjective, confusing nonsense.”  How do you know this? 

 

I do appreciate your willingness to dialogue.  I do apologize for not responding fully to what you have written.  When time becomes more available, I will elaborate at that time.

[ADVRider]

Hi Shaun,

 

No problem if you get time or not. I appreciate your replies too.

 

I was only trying to say that just because an experience has a subjective element, that does not mean God is not involved in the process. No, I did not quote a lot of verses, but I did not feel my argument necessitated that for those familiar with the corpus of scripture. As for where the "axiom" is found in scripture that God speaks, well....it is found throughout scripture, as I have continued to say. I am sorry you do not see that. Lets put it this way; there is no verse that says He stopped. That's what I have been emphasizing all along. Lastly, you ask if the subjective experience has the same authority as objective scripture? No. And yes. Yes if God tells you something, because He is the Lord, and He is alive.

 

I reiterate we are probably looking through a different set of lenses, perhaps defined as "experience," and I don't think I can say much more that would be of help. Perhaps, you do not see this as an issue of cessationism or continuationism, but to me, it appears to be the very crux of our dialogue. Anyhow, this will be my last post in this regard, not for any reason other than there isn't anything more that I can add. Maybe if we lived next door to each other, it would be a different case.

 

ADV 

[Shaun DuFault]

Hi Shaun,

 

No problem if you get time or not. I appreciate your replies too.

 

I was only trying to say that just because an experience has a subjective element, that does not mean God is not involved in the process. No, I did not quote a lot of verses, but I did not feel my argument necessitated that for those familiar with the corpus of scripture. As for where the "axiom" is found in scripture that God speaks, well....it is found throughout scripture, as I have continued to say. I am sorry you do not see that. Lets put it this way; there is no verse that says He stopped. That's what I have been emphasizing all along. Lastly, you ask if the subjective experience has the same authority as objective scripture? No. And yes. Yes if God tells you something, because He is the Lord, and He is alive.

 

I reiterate we are probably looking through a different set of lenses, perhaps defined as "experience," and I don't think I can say much more that would be of help. Perhaps, you do not see this as an issue of cessationism or continuationism, but to me, it appears to be the very crux of our dialogue. Anyhow, this will be my last post in this regard, not for any reason other than there isn't anything more that I can add. Maybe if we lived next door to each other, it would be a different case.

 

ADV 

 

I am begining to wonder if you read want you wanted to read or really trying to understand the situation.  The axiom is not, "Does God speak" and sadly you know that it not what I said.  To make it sound as you did is poor taste and completely out of context. 

 

I am not surprised but sadden that you do not desire to go to the Scriptures to provide your foundation.  How can one diaglogue about what God speaks if one is unwilling to use the very Word that is infallible?  I hope that in the future you will change your mind.

 

I would encourage you to reread 1 Cor. 14 and truly interact with the passages I had laid out for you.  However, it is good to see that you freely submit that subjective experiences may be a higher authority.  Would you then deny the sufficiency of Scritpure? 

[ADVRider]

Hi Shaun,

Didn't intend to reply, but probably should. I did not intend in any way to act in poor taste. I do read your posts. I'm sorry if I offended you; I certainly didn't mean to, nor was I trying to. It's possible I reply too quickly and it might appear I'm not reading, but I do. Anyhow , please know I'm not trying to argue and have a tit for tat. I actually quite dislike that sort of thing. But also, so you know, I'm not going to spend hours looking up verses to make every little point. The reason is, I assume most of what i have been saying here is generally known to be scriptural. But I've already said this. I also recommended an author if you are interested in learning more about it. That author is more credible than me on the topic.

I want to say kindly though, that it could appear you have only read what you wanted to as well. I had the impression as well, that you might have glossed over what i said, only to quickly jump to some counterpoint .

One example being, I never said that scripture was not sufficient. I also did not say experience is a "higher" authority. I said in the case of a valid experience with the Holy Spirit, they can be equal, insofar as the Spirit and the Word are one, and said experience is one where it is God speaking, to an individual or an assembled group. It seems to me, you see a dichotomy between scripture and experience (with the Holy Spirit today) where I see a harmony.

Our hermeneutic is obviously not the same and i believe we'd just continue to misunderstand each other, and I'm truly sorry that i have misunderstood some of your points. So respectfully, if you'll allow, I'll bow out at this point.

Blessings,
ADV

[Shaun DuFault]

I do not think it is a case of 'misunderstanding' as is a lack of desire to engage with what I have been stating.  Generally, the questions I have raised mostly go unanswered.  I would desperately like to know what your hermeneutic is but since there was little desire to interact with the Word, one may never really know. 

 

The evidence you give regarding 'harmony' is that it happen to certain individuals like Moses and Joseph (adopted father of Jesus) therefore it must happen today.  Yet, you still do not offer anything but that today's means has a lot of confusion and messiness which is cleary not a part of any example in God's Word.  You cannot have it both ways.  One cannot state that your experience is the same as Moses and then at the same time say it is completely different.  If the Holy Spirit is as you suggest speaking to an assembled group, then they must be able to say, "Thus says the Lord...."  I would like just a single reference to a person who heard directly from the Holy Spirit and essentially equate with your standard, "This might be from God..."  No one from Scripture had any uncertainty as to what God stated to them.  Yet, we are to believe that such uncertainty is completely valid in such communication today. 

 

We must turn to what the Scriptures do say.  You may not desire to interact with them but they are all we have in regards to an infalliable and sufficient standard.  To claim, "the case of a valid experience" should one not have some hard core steps outlined from Scripture to be the standard to assert such validation?   

 

When one equates subjective expereince with God's Word, one conclusion is that the Word lacks sufficiency.  I tried to frame my doubts in a question format so as to allow for deniablity by yourself.  However, how can one truly say that the Bible is sufficient and yet God must and does speak as He did to those within Scripture.  It is self-refuting and contradictory.  For if the Bible is truly sufficient, then why must the Holy Spirit speak to a group outside of His Word?  In other words, for this group the Bible is not enough and one must seek validation outside of such interaction.  I am unsure as to why this is hard to fathom or see. 

 

Please do not think you have to respond to my concern here.  I respect your wishes to disengage from this conversation.  I do acknowledge that we do not see "eye to eye" on this issue.  I have no malice towards you and also apologize for any misunderstanding on my part.

 

In His Grip,

Shaun

[daburkett]

I was wondering if part of this discussion hinges around Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Acts 2:17-18. I would be interested to hear how people are engaging these passages.

[Charles Miles]

Shaun, I extend this conversation only to comment on a question or two you asked and there did not seem to be a reply. We only grow in knowledge when we seek, pray, and then listen. Jesus told us
that He and the Father would come to live in our hearts if asked, and dwell there. If this is true, and I have all faith that it is, why would there not be conversation, life changes, and a relationship that is so sweet and close that walking with the Lord and hearing His wishes would
not be anything but normal? Let be say that I have never heard the audible voice of God, I have
never seen Jesus, and I certainly have never been told to go proclaim.."Thus says the Lord God".
I will say this, however, I am a sinner that now has the indwelling Holy Spirit inside me. When,
not if, I sin, there is an instantaneous knowledge that I have done wrong before the words or
deed is even put out there! That used not to be the case, but now all has changed. Is this called a revelation? Well, to me it is and I know to repent, ask for forgiveness, learn a lesson, and move on with God`s help.

How does one know it is the Holy Spirit speaking? Well, if your best friend spoke to you and asked about your family, how your day was going, and asked you to meet him for dinner, how do you know it was him? Familiarity with his voice, his mannerisms, and him being concerned about you and those close to you would let you know. It would be obvious. You have heard him speak and have those concerns for you all your life(or the part of it where he was your friend). It would even be strange if you DIDN`T know who was speaking. Now I ask, how is our relationship with our heavenly Father? Do we actually know Him on a very, very personal level? "My sheep know my voice" How? They live with the shepherd every day, listen for his voice every day, depend upon that voice to keep them out of danger, allow that voice to lead them to water and green pastures, they know that they know who is
speaking.

I ask the Lord daily to keep me close, to allow me to have the relationship with Him that He wants.
Close relationship, closer relationship, please just come live in my soul, give me a new heart, and write on it all your laws and wishes. A relationship of trust. A sweet relationship that is so special, but is available to all who ask. Whatever relationship anyone has with anyone or anything....I can tell you...Jesus is better.

Praise be to God who loves us and offers His relationship,

Charlie

[ADVRider]

Hi Charles,

 

I've been away for a while, but just read your reply. You hit it on the head that it is through relationship that we know Him. I know this is now getting off the topic that Christopher started with, but I was thinking just yesterday that for the Christian to know God and be able to grow, we must experience Him by the working of the Holy Spirit in us. This working is the work of the Spirit, but we must by faith and in trust, discern it and allow it. If we do not allow for that type of experience, we most likely will not experience what this sub-forum speaks of--the deeper life. Subsequently, if such a person is left with only intellectual study and knowledge of God, then they will be unfamiliar with the Person of the Holy Spirit and their knowledge of God will fall far short of who He is. Why? Because they are not experiencing or dialoging with Him as much as they are learning about Him only by proxy in a sense. You can read, memorize and know the Word, but if it is not applied to your heart through the Holy Spirit then you don't know what the author is saying. Sure, there are grammatical principles of Bible study that we must use because it is the written word, but we know the Bible is a spiritual book; it's not like any other text. The carnal mind cannot discern it or know God. Thus, the truth of the scriptures must be revealed. How? Through our mental faculties alone? No, in our hearts by the Spirit of God. Thanks Charlie for your follow-up. I did send Shaun the two books by Jack Deere earlier this year, but I do not know if he was able to look at them. Most all the concerns raised earlier here are addressed in them, but one might not agree with Deere's positions. I do, but that is a moot point.

[Charles Miles]

As usual, the medium of a written forum is not the best place to discuss the differences between "sense knowledge" and "spiritual Knowledge". The two are light years apart. I know, I had one of them without the other for 55 years and didn`t understand why I kept struggling with my Christian
walk. I am a physician, a scientist if you will, and I read a great deal of books, papers, articles, and professional journals on a continuing basis. I can read at a pretty good clip when reading medical material, but when reading the Bible...I slow down to a pace that will allow me to listen for the urgings of the One who wrote it. The whole book comes to life for me.

Got to go for now.

Charlie

[ADVRider]

As usual, the medium of a written forum is not the best place to discuss the differences between "sense knowledge" and "spiritual Knowledge". The two are light years apart. I know, I had one of them without the other for 55 years and didn`t understand why I kept struggling with my Christian walk. I am a physician, a scientist if you will, and I read a great deal of books, papers, articles, and professional journals on a continuing basis. I can read at a pretty good clip when reading medical material, but when reading the Bible...I slow down to a pace that will allow me to listen for the urgings of the One who wrote it. The whole book comes to life for me.

Got to go for now.

Charlie

Charlie,

 

That's why your words on the matter have weight; your experience validates and informs your thoughts.

[ADVRider]

I was wondering if part of this discussion hinges around Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and Acts 2:17-18. I would be interested to hear how people are engaging these passages.

Hi DA,

I looked up these verses today, and while I would say the original and subsequent posts probably did not center around these verses, I think they are relevant.

In my many replies, it's clear (or should be) that I was emphasizing more the idea of the Spirit being active in the life of the believer today. Continuity of NT experience if you will. Why not? Some harp (excuse the expression) on the need for maintaining apostolic doctrine and tradition, but never consider it's ludicrous that for whatever reason, Christian practice somehow changed. I'm talking the core. I know some things changed. But in the NT, much of the practice is clearly expounded in the NT itself; they are woven.

Some respondents seemed to gravitate towards II Tim. 3:16-17. But the gifts and activity of the Holy Spirit don't contradict what these verses say.

Not sure how Hebrews 1 fits or your thoughts on all of it, but please feel free to share with us.