38 replies to this topic

[CHRISTOPHER310]

“ The Boy Who Came Back from Heaven' Recants Everything ” ... [ http://www.msn.com/e...hing/ar-AA8fa4j ]

I have never believed in this kind of stuff when I hear people say it on tv or in a book or other media form. I think it’s all fake and made up for attention or money or some other personal want. This story above does not prove all similar stories are fake, but to me, it proves that there are some that are fakes. People should really look at their morals and fear judgment when they make up stuff like this. Any more so, people who want to or choose to believe stories like this should take a strong look at their faith and logic in a common sense way. Just because we want to believe something is true, does not make it true. Fake stories like the one above just shows how the devil can so easily fool people including believers. It also gives atheists another platform to use against believers.

[Candice]

Christopher,

Yes, I saw this story and felt relieved that someone, finally, admitted to the fakery.  I skimmed this book and watched the movie (out of nothing else to do) and believed in my heart that this is nothing more than necromancy - talking to the dead as the child allegedly spoke to his grandfather, et al. while in heaven.

 

However, these experiences may, at least in some cases, be real experiences.  I just wouldn't trust this as a form of the Gospel as it's taken on a gospel of its own for many people who want to know about the afterlife, eternity and such.

[Shaun DuFault]

The boy is correct that all we need is what the Scriptures revealed.  I do find it interesting that the men of Scripture who have been giving grace to be present there, only spoke of what was needed and it wasn't much.  If the Holy Spirit refrained these men and even Jesus' friend Lazarus, why do we think that something has changed in the 21st century?

 

All these experiences differ from those in Scritpure.  None of them "died" and came back to life to tell us.  Lazarus' lack of communication is deafing.

[Ken Young]

A freind on Facebook posted the story, my concern about this story and the Heaven is Real is that both stories are from children and happened several years ago, they are easy to influence and manipulate their stories.

[ADVRider]

Paul went to heaven. Stephen saw heaven. Yes, there are fake or misguided testimonies, but don't make the opposite mistake of discounting the supernatural because of it. It's a common thing to interpret scripture through the filter of our personal experience, or more often, even the lack of it.

New Agers call it astral projection, and they believe it can be done. Shamans know it can be done. I'm not equating going to heaven with new age practices, only saying the spirit of a person can connect into another dimension. Again, Paul visited heaven. It's in the NT. I guess it's easy for us to overlook that or explain it away because the scriptures are so old and non sensational, it somehow seems legitimate because it's Paul and it's the Bible. But Paul was a man and a Christian, just like you and me. So i would ask, why did Paul go? Was there not a purpose for the revelation? Could God not call you up there to show you something? If not, are you less than Paul? Just some food for thought. The revelation of the Bible does fully reveal God's nature and attributes and the prophetic outline of the age, but it doesn't necessarily give you detailed information about tomorrow; He might need to tell you that by His Spirit in the moment. (Re-read the Book of Acts). He might even call you up to heaven!

[Charles Miles]

I`m not sure about some of these stories of "near death trips to heaven", but I certainly don`t allow them to upset me or discount them offhand. As we read the Bible, there are several men who were brought into heaven to see things, simply because God wanted them to see what was going on. As I read these Biblical accounts, I see nowhere that such things are no longer to be done. Kinda along the same line that there are many christians today who say the miracles were only for Biblical times and the first century church, and there are no more miracles being done today.  Well, the Bible does not say anything like that at all! Why don`t we see more miracles today?  Well maybe we do and just dismiss them as "luck" or good medical care.  Many times I have seen situations that resolve, seemingly spontaneously, that by all reason should have ended in death.  Patients "code" and after 1-2 hours of CPR and all the treatment available in a large hospital, the ECG is flat, totally flat, and remains that way for 15-20 min after all resusitation has ceased.  Then, the heart seemingly restarts on its own.  Just one set of examples, but other things happen that just defy scientific explaination.

 

The heaven stories are sometimes a bit hard to believe and are totally not understandable, but I tend to keep an open mind and not allow one inaccurate story to cause me to be a cynic on all the stories. 

 

In Christ,

 

Charlie

[Shaun DuFault]

ADV and Charles,

 

First, thank you for your comments and desire for us to maintain some balance regarding this episode.  Reading through yoru comments there seems to be a common theme that is troubling.

 

The main thrust of both your arguments is really from silence.  This isn't always bad since it can be helpful but not when it is the main point.  The reason is that the arguments from silence generally works both ways (for & against).  Yet, the underlying problem for both arguments is that they both undermine the sufficiency of Scripture.  Why isn't the Scriptures sufficient for our understanding of Heaven?  What one does have to argue regarding such books is that they essentially profess new revelation from God, that is outside of God's Word.  This is problematic.

 

ADV, you asked why can't another person be taken to Heaven by God just like Paul.  Let's take a closer look at this.  How many of the apostles had a similar expereince as Paul?  The answer is John.  So, of the 13 apostles only 2 of them had the unique visions of Heaven.  This would seem to make it a rare occurance than one that a typical Christian would expereince.  Furthermore, how much alike are we to say, Paul.  Did you have a Damascus expereince where Jesus spoke directly to you?  Have you been inspired by the Holy Spirit to write Scripture?  We are different from Paul and even Stephen via time and culture. 

 

I would be careful of associating what New Agers do with what happened with Paul.  First, Paul was not seeking this out as New Agers do since we are not to dable with the spiritual realm.  Second, Paul received a thorn in the flesh because of this vision (not a very positive thing, eh?).  Third, equating occult practices with the Holy Spirit is very dangerous.

 

Charlie, I am unaware of anyone who beleives that miracles no longer exist.  Now, I have yet to see a single person touch someone saying, "You are healed" or "raised from the dead".  These are a bit different and not actually in line with the issue of these Heaven stories.  How many people from the Bible actually been to Heaven and back to speak?  I guarntee that it is a very low number of all those listed in the Bible.  It demonstrates that this is not normative, but special.  Let's say for argument sake that these "Heaven stories" are real.  None of our modern day ones sound anything close to the words written by those in Scripture who were given such an opportunity. 

 

The men in Scripture were essentially speechless, grappling with words to describe what took place, if they were allowed to share.  The overwhelming presence of God left them in awe.  We do not see this in these modern books. 

 

The bottom line is this: If we are to value and hold to the sufficiency of Scripture, then these books ought not to be promoted by the Christian community.  The implecation from such books is that God seemed to have forgot to tell us what we needed in the Scriptures.  Very dangerous indeed!

[Charles Miles]

Shaun,

 

You miss the point of my post on the matter, but before I attempt to explain, let me clear up a side point.  If you have not yet met anyone who does not believe in miracles, you soon will, and you are going to meet them within the Church.  You will probably be surprised by who these people are because I certainly was. I love them, but do not understand exactly where they get their scriptural basis for the halting of miracles after the first century church.  Have I seen miracles, well, yes.  And they have lasted, but that is a different topic.

 

As for that book about the little boy, well, I haven`t read it and have no desire to read it or go to the movie about it. I already have a book that discusses what was seen within the throne-room of God Almighty.  At least 2 views, from different people, and they pretty much describe similar things. I am certainly not "new age" in my belief, although I find new things in God`s love for me every day. I am not religious, not a pure Calvinist nor a pure Armenian. And as now you can see that I`m not silent either.  What am I?  Well, I am a born again child of the God that holds the universe in His hand, a man who has been given righteousness through His Son Jesus, a joint heir of the kingdom with Jesus Christ, and a man who certainly places no limits upon what my God can or can`t do with whomever He pleases.

 

I answered the post in an effort to maybe "defuse" a rush to judge these people who told the story of their small son, and evidently believed the episode to be true. They WANTED it to be true.  There are people out there who will take this episode and make fun of Christians and their belief in heaven and an afterlife.  This is a sad thing, but I do not pretend to judge these people.  I do not know how much they even know about Paul, John, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, or so many others.  You said I was "silent" on the issue, well maybe I just don`t have an opinion on this specific story.  Even if I did have one, it would not be of any value at all.  You see, I serve a King, and the King does have opinions so I`ll just say mine is the same as His and I haven`t been told what His is at this moment. Maybe He will choose not to tell me His opinion on this, and that`s OK too.  You see, we don`t need to have an opinion on everything, maybe not an opinion on anything.....why not just take our King`s opinion.  Most often it is found in the Bible, sometimes not. There are questions out there that just have no answers for us now.  So I simply don`t worry about stories such as this.

 

Shaun, In a totally unrelated matter, and I promise not even remotely related to this book about the boy.....Why do you think Paul`s "thorn" was related to his vision. I have had several teachers give possible explanations, but I know of no one who claims to know exactly what the "thorn" was.  Kinda like you, I think it may have had something to do with his eyes....maybe just very poor vision, or eye pain, but I guess some things are not that important to know.  Just to know that Paul HAD a "thorn" and why God left it there is enough for the Lord to get His point across.

 

Praise God for who He is and what He has done for us already,

 

Charlie

[ADVRider]

Hi Shaun,

 

Sorry if I seemed to be comparing New Age practices with the work of the Holy Spirit. I would never do that. However, I have heard many Christians argue the position that if a person claims an experience of some kind with the Holy Spirit, it's automatically suspect. To me it seems, they are the ones who inadvertently equate the two (in an odd twist) by suggesting that the supernatural realm only exists and can only be of use to the enemy. God could not possibly be involved with such things. Some even attribute the work of the Spirit to the devil, just like in Jesus' day when they said He was of the devil. Not much has changed in some ways. I simply used those examples to underscore the fact that most societies, even (or especially) primitive ones, know the spiritual world is real, whereas many modern people, including believers, dismiss it. That was the only point of my comparison. But how ironic for the people of God to often not understand this reality.

 

I suppose there are reasons for this. Some are cessationists. Some are professed continuationsists, but practical cessationists; they haven't experienced it, so it's probably not really valid in their mind.  I remember so many people saying, "it's not in the Bible." But then when it is in the Bible, the tack changes; "it's biblical, but it's not normative."

 

Anyway, I do not believe Charlie nor I are saying the scriptures are insufficient. I am certainly not suggesting here that there is another revelation beyond the Bible. All I am saying as one who believes that the church age has never changed, is that God still speaks. He still acts. He still does supernatural things. Even if we don't understand all of it or it's a little scary.

 

BTW, speaking for myself, I do not seek to manipulate God into givng me experiences or speaking to me in some way. But through his sovereignty and will, He has done these things, a fair bit actually. Not on my dime or on my time though. Not every day. But this is all irrelevant. He does what He wants when He wants. Back on point, if the Holy Spirit tells me something personally I need to know, I do not take this as "revelation." I take it as direction, warning, admonition, correction, or whatever it, in fact, is. I think some believe the things I mention here can only come through the Bible, "because it's all we need." It is all we need regarding the revelation of God about Himself, mankind, His work throughout the ages, and many other things. No need for additional scriptures, as if God was holding out on mankind for the next installment.  But what about the Holy Spirit? We have the Bible, but we also have the Holy Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life just as much as we need the scriptures. He spoke before. Does He still speak to His children today? Can He tell you or show you something that is not recorded in the the text, but you and you alone need to know, like " I am calling you to Estonia." Sorry If I am getting off topic here, but I think this is relevant to the discussion, because some Christians think this is not possible. I've even heard believers say it's demonic, because "God doesn't do that anymore." I am not being arrogant or puffed up about this, but I know He speaks. He wants intimacy with His children and He sees all of us the same. He is no respecter of persons and Paul is no different than you or I. We have different callings, but God does not love us on the basis of anything other than who we are.

 

Someone might ask, "why does this matter if we have the Bible"? Well, first off, spiritual experiences do not make one a more mature Christian or a holier Christian. But to hear God or to be used by God in a spiritual gift brings an intimacy and a closeness to His Person that only comes through that particular work of the Spirit, because that work of the Spirit communicates something about Himself. This realiztion isn't anything the scripture didn't already speak of, but the believer experiences God at work, confirming the word, bringing the word to life, in the now, not just in history.

 

For example, if God talks to you let's say, that alone tells you a lot about His character and His love for you personally. The same if He divinely heals you. In these things, there is a connection that makes the scriptures and God Himself real to a person, when before, maybe they had read about it, but had not experienced a particular truth. Reading about being healed and being healed are two different things. Which would you rather have if you need healing? God wants us to experience Him. That is not just for the lucky few who happened to walk the streets of Jerusalem two millenia ago. No, the gospel of the kingdom is good news today, and it includes what it did back then. Otherwise, it is a different gospel. Let me make it clear that I am not saying we control God or command God in any of what is in His word. But too many believe God is not in the supernatural business anymore at all. Yes, He is sovereign and there are times we will have to suffer. There will be times when the truths of His word will seem to not be true. We will struggle to reconcile our trouble with God's love, etc. No matter; trust Him regardless, even without answers.

 

I don't know about the book of the boy. I don't follow that stuff. Unfortuneately and perhaps the reason for your concern is, that many do. I get it. But let's not take a false experience and discount all such things without looking into them, and more importantly, into what the Bible has to say. Like Charlie, you might have missed my main point too. Supernatural experiences can still happen, though they may be faked by some people for whatever reasons. I think the opposite extreme, that God is silent and inactive--sort of a Christian deism, is perhaps even more harmful.

 

 

Blessings!

 

I edited some of this from the original, so apologies if you read the earlier version.

[ADVRider]

Why is this topic posted in he Deeper Life area?

No particular reason I don't think. But some posters seem to mainly post here by habit.

[Vicki C]

I read Tozer's page every day and check the Deeper Life Forum as well.  I personally think that this topic is appropriate for this forum as we navigate this deeper life walk with the Lord through this world.  I'm thankful that God pointed me to this area as it is helpful to me. 

 

I do miss seeing posts from Thinker Ron, though. 

[CHRISTOPHER310]

Why is this topic posted in he Deeper Life area?

 

No particular reason I don't think. But some posters seem to mainly post here by habit.

 

The reason why I posted this subject here in “Deeper Life” is not out of habit. I did it cause I believe this was a subject matter that was more suited for deeper thinking. I see nothing wrong with my choice of location posts. And what does it really matter anyways. If you want to know why I did something, ask me directly. It will help you get a more truthful answer and not some conjectural reply form someone else who would not actual know my intentions. Thanks.

[ADVRider]

Christopher,

 

I don't think anyone meant any by it. It just seemed to me you post in this forum mostly. I am not saying there's a problem; I was just answering the other guy with what I thought.

[CHRISTOPHER310]

Christopher,

 

I don't think anyone meant any by it. It just seemed to me you post in this forum mostly. I am not saying there's a problem; I was just answering the other guy with what I thought.

 

I am sorry. I work up cranky and should of held back replying do anything until that cleared up. You said nothing wrong. I reacted wrong. Sorry.

[CHRISTOPHER310]

I know God is real. I am living proof of that. When my life failed and I fell, I turned to God and gave my life over to him. It was God or my own self destructions. Ever since that point, my life has changed greatly for the better. This is my prove that God is real. However, I have yet to see any prove these stories of dead to heaven and back again are real or actually happened has they where claimed to. The devil uses every trick to fool us and if we want to believe in something so bad as fact, we will give into that and the devil and be fooled by liars. I am not one of these people. Where is the prove ( not the money, attention, book/movie deals ) that these dead to heaven and back again stories are real?

[ADVRider]

No problem Christopher. I hope you have a great day! Cheers.

[Shaun DuFault]

I am disturbed by some ideas here that in one sense state that they agree that the Bible is the full revelation of God.  And in the same breathe state that the Holy Spirit speaks directly to them just as He did with the apostles.  Would that not be by definition new revelation by God?

 

Second, I am curious as to what parameters one ought to use to make sure that it is the Holy Spirit speaking and not their own thoughts, conscience.  Could someone spell out some steps one ought to take to make sure that it is truly the Holy Spirit who is speaking and not self?  Simply saying that as long as it does not contradict Scripture it is the Spirit, for then one would then have to state that our own conscience only speaks in contradiction to Scripture.

 

Charlie, I did not say you were silent, but the argument you were putting forth was based on silence (a.k.a. no positive evidence for position).  Also, the New Age comment was to ADV, I apologize for the confusion.  I was hoping to hit two birds with one stone, and failed miserably.

[ADVRider]

There are plenty of testimonies in The Alliance and elsewhere of Jesus appearing in dreams and visions to non-believers around the world, resulting in their conversion. This is but one form of the Holy Spirit speaking. There are others. Not sure why you'd find this type of activity disturbing. Perhaps you are focused too much on some of the sensational stuff in the charismatic movement and are put off by that? Still, don't over look what is obviously scriptural. As for your need for proof, you would, in theory be questioning the apostles too. How did they know? You'd have to ask them as well. They were only men just like you, but they did have some kind of experience. Two thousand years later, you apparently believe them, perhaps because your experience agrees with what they said about Jesus. They had the physical Jesus, we have the Comforter; the Comforter still speaks.

There are always going to be people who say, "God told me such and such," and it wasn't God. I've done it. I was wrong. That time. Why can I say, "that time?" Because the other time, it was God. It withstood testing and bore fruit. It was confirmed and came to pass. These are some of the ways you know. Sorry, but humans are fleshly and they can get it wrong sometimes. "We know in part and we prophesy in part." If you are thinking this process of God speaking and people hearing is an exact science, you're going to get it wrong. Some are distracted, some are dull, some are rebellious, some don't believe. Yet God could be clearly speaking to each one of those. Now I don't want to sound off here, but you are more apt to hear when you have an open heart, when you are in love with, and desperate for, God. You probably won't hear Him with a closed and intellectual approach. Remember Jesus said you must come as a little child to receive. Tease that out a bit.

Prophecy is another way God speaks, similar to dreams. I've had total strangers know and say what is going on in my heart. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit, God's voice through another human vessel. These ways and others are from Genesis through Revelation; How is it that you are finding this disturbing? I understand being bothered by abuse and spiritual immaturity, but not spiritual gifts that are in the Bible.

Getting back to knowing, the heart knows, in the same way a person knows Jesus altered their life. Would you agree salvation is a supernatural act of God through the agency of His Son and the Holy Spirit? Well,the Lord can speak as well as deliver, just like it's recorded in scripture. It seems that some folks can't grasp that God would tell or show them something personally these days, though it's throughout their Bible. Ever heard of Jack Deere? Maybe his books, Surprised by The Power of the Spirit and Surprised by The Voice of God could help. Hard core Dallas Seminary cessationist who realized the Spirit is personal and involved in our lives today.

It wont't help you grasp this (or see it) if you don't believe the Lord could communicate with you personally and directly by His Spirit today. To me, it is completely normal, because God is the same as He always has been. That's the best way I can say it. Believe me, if the Holy Spirit checks in on you, you are going to know it. And you'll never ask again, "how do you know"? Your heart will know without any doubt. If you really want to know, ask Him, not other men. Men can encourage, God can convince.