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The Disciple Whom Jesus Loves


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#1 Julie Daube

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:53 AM

"I want to encourage you to wake up every day expecting good. Keep your mind positive, full of joy, hope, and anticipation of all the good things God has in store for you, His beloved! Spring up from your bed, stand in front of your mirror, and boldly declare, 'I am the disciple whom Jesus loves. I am the apple of His eye. Everything I do and touch shall be blessed! The Lord’s wisdom, favor, and provision flow mightily in and through me. Amen!' This is how you access the Lord’s abundant love and provision for you, and step into His rest and peace today." – Joseph Prince
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#2 Charles Miles

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:20 AM

Somewhere I heard a story....

 

  A young boy was always getting beaten up on his way to and from school by a bully and two of the bully`s friends.  The young boy was not very big, nor was he athletic, but the bully and his buddies were big, and tough.  One day before school, the young man confided in his dad that he didn`t want to go to school that day....and told him why.....he just knew there was a beating about to happen down the street.  His dad told him to keep going to school and keep being an honest youg man, but he had to get up and go on to school that morning.  As he walked down the street and turned the corner, there they were, waiting on him, waiting for him to walk on down to where they were.....directly on the path to the school.  He gritted his teeth and continued to walk foreward toward them.  As he got closer, he saw that they no longer looked angry.  No longer looked fearsome.  As he came closer, he saw fear on their faces...as they bolted and ran.  It was then he turned around and saw his dad walking behind him....all 6`6" and 220# of recon marine with a determined look on his face. 

 

You see, stan can beat me up pretty good, and I`m not much when it comes to fighting such eveil, but satan DOES NOT want to tangle with my Father.  I am His son, His child, His heir, and all I have to do is know that in my heart and speak it with my lips.......and that makes me a force with which satan cannot deal with.  It is not MY force and not MY power, but God says,"I`m with you, even until the end of time".  Friends, that covers my walk to and from school or any other place in this life.

 

Praise God because He is who He is,

 

Charlie


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#3 Julie Daube

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 12:41 PM

Amen, Charlie! God is good, precisely because of who He is.

#4 Speilb

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 09:09 PM

I decided to remove my post for now but will maybe post it again in a later post.  I don't like offending people and I really try not to but I do have some concerns with the quote from Joseph Prince.  In weighing out my response this morning I figured that it would likely not be received well and only result in defensive actions.  . 

 

I will encourage everyone to search the Bible on this subject and ask questions concerning the Biblical backing for Prince's statement.  I also encourage those who are National Office workers to discuss Prince with someone like Dan Wetzel. 

 

May the Name of Jesus be exalted,

 

James


Edited by Speilb, 15 August 2014 - 05:31 AM.


#5 Julie Daube

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 02:24 PM

Speilb, I think I understand your concerns. Although you didn't state them directly (and I didn't see your original post), I would imagine they are related to justifiable opposition to some of the unbiblical excesses of the so-called "health and wealth" gospel (this could be a separate post, so I won't go into detail).

However, I don't believe Prince's statements in my post fall into that category; I believe they are intended to remind Christians of who they are in Christ, as God's beloved children. There are numerous Scriptures that back up the sentiment of the devotional I posted. Here are just a few:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ." Ephesians 2

“Keep me as the apple of Your eye; Hide me under the shadow of Your wings.” - Psalm 17:8

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise" - Galatians 3

"God works all things for good, for those who love him." - Romans 8

"We are more than conquerors through Him who loved us." - Romans 8

"God shall supply all of your needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:19

"In all respects I pray that you will prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers." 3 John

"And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work." 2 Corinthians 9

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9

"The Lord is my shepherd, I lack nothing. . . Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life." - Psalm 23

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority." Colossians 2.

"Praise the Lord, my soul, and forget not all his benefits— who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion, who satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s." - Psalm 103

The reason I post devotionals such as the one by Joseph Prince is due to my concern that many in the Church today do not understand their identity in Christ. As a result, they live in constant defeat, fear, and self-loathing . . .and struggle far more with sin than they need to. I know because I've been there. I spent much of my Christian life believing that God was some cosmic ogre, just waiting to strike me down if I failed to measure up. My life was completely transformed when I started learning about what God says about me in His Word. Interestingly, I've known a number of other preachers who have said that if believers truly understood who they are in Christ, they will struggle far less with sin. I believe this is true; in fact, I am reading a daily devotional about this subject, and it contains an impressive number of testimonies from believers who overcame various sins and addictions by focusing on what God's Word says about them as His beloved children.

Thank you, Jesus, for the truth of your Word. May we know the truth, and may the truth set us free.

Grace and peace,

Julie
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#6 Julie Daube

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

Here is one more Scripture I just came across that aligns well with the Prince devotional I posted: "From his [Christ’s] abundance we have all received one gracious blessing after another" (Jn 1:16, NLT). Thank you, Jesus, for your abundant grace, mercy, and loving kindness! 



#7 Speilb

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:43 AM

From your post, you said you do not consider the quote of prince to be related to the "health and wealth" teachings but you seemed to leave open that maybe Prince himself falls into this camp.  Does health include a so called "healthy sense of self-esteem"? 

 

For me I see the theology of people like Joel Osteen as a mental health and wealth teaching where as the older health and wealth teachings focused more on physical healing.  Often what I find in those that focus on mental health is that they often turn to Psychology with a Christian twist. 

 

As for "identity in Christ" teachings.  I am not at all opposed to a balanced view of one's identity.  I have counseled many people in ways that are similar to well known older "identity in Christ" teachers like Neil Anderson, Mark Bubeck, and the like.  Knowing who we is of great importance.  I have worked with many through the "steps to freedom in Christ" (a title that Anderson now regrets calling them).  I do believe one can get out of balance with their teachings so people must make sure they take in the whole counsel of God but that being said, I could say I fall into what we could call the "identity in Christ camp" 

 

Many of the verses you quoted are verses I am well familiar with and have used personally in understanding myself and in helping others.  We can also both agree that the things that are most true about us are the things that God says about us. 

 

However, I could compile quite a list of scriptures warning us against pride/confidence in the flesh, and spiritual pride.  If we decided to trade verses back and forth we could go for a very long time and could help cement positions in either camp.  However, if we did that we would only prove we are both wrong and don't understand the Word of God, because the Word of God doesn't conflict and the only right understanding is an theology that can be comfortable with and utilize both those scriptures on our identity in Christ and the need for humility and smallness before God and man.

 

Where we perhaps disagree is that those quoted verses validate Joseph Prince's instructions in the above quote.  In my view Joseph Prince used terms like "the Apple of His eye" in a way that scripture does not.  In the verse you quoted of David, he was pleading with God.  David understood that his survival depended on God's favor and therefore he plead with God to keep him as "the Apple of Your eye".  What I don't see of David, is a pride of standing up and saying "I am the Apple of God's eye, I am THE Learner that You love".  Such and attitude would have made David's Psalms read quite differently.  Rather, I see in him that understanding who he was in God's eyes kept him humble despite the challenges to humility that kingship provides.  He also didn't presume upon God that God was going to forever keep him as the "apple of His eyes". If David was the type to boost himself by proclaiming God's love for him and God's continued blessings on everything he touched I think he would have put himself in a position where God would not have blessed him so lavishly. 

 

I am very comfortable in thanking and praising God for the wonders of His Grace in providing for us an identity that is wholly undeserved.  But looking in the mirror and affirming ourselves is something, in my view, that crosses a line, moves us into spiritual pride and compromises some of the most beautiful elements of our faith.  If we do cross over from humble identity that focuses on God's Amazing Grace to Spiritual Pride it will quickly compromise many things and bring us into a great number of theological errors (maybe even the Antinomianism that many see in Prince's teaching).  It also moves us towards a man-centered faith. 

 

In the Prince quote it appears to me that who is being exalted is the person in the mirror.  In the proclamation he suggested the subject seems to be me.  The exaltation is based on identity in Christ but I believe that a true understanding of identity in Christ does not lead to self-exaltation but instead to whole-hearted worship/exaltation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and a preoccupation with God at the expense of self. 



#8 Charles Miles

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 04:26 AM

I society of today, often people take one side of a discussion and "dig in" to defend their stand.  This creates divisions within a discussion or situation that are not helpful, if one is attempting to find the truth or at least a solution.  This is the main problem in Washington with congress and most all of our "political" debate.  I do not want this discussion to end up in that sort of heap.

 

If one does not know who they are in Christ, the will live much of their life in worry, unhappiness, and confusion.  The enemy can easily slip in and do terrible damage that can result in doubt about God`s promise.  We MUST know who we are and why we are who we are.  Anyone who would stand in front of a mirror and say that they are "the apple of God`s eye" because of anything they themselves have done....simply does not understand the gospel.  BUT...I do not think that is what Julie (or Joseph Prince) is saying here.  If one starts a difficult day of life here on earth and does NOT know that God loves them, wants them to know Him better, that He is available to help in situation, whether the situations are bad or good, .....these people are simply not taking advantage of a relationship that is available to them.  They can live in the kingdom of God, with the righteousness given them by God, and they don`t? Ahh, how sad to see believers moping around all sad and defeated by satan....when this does not have to be, and should not be the case.  There is nothing wrong with reminding ourselves just who we are.....every morning, every evening, and any other time for that matter. Since we are God`s own righteousness, there is nothing wrong with reveling in it day and night....as long as we know it is a gift that we didn`t deserve and was made available at Christ`s expense.  That is not pride in ourselves, but being greatful for what God, in His infinite mercy, has done for us.  When confronting evil, depression, problems, confusion, hate, ridicule, and all the other weapons of satan, we have better know whose we are and have our feet planted on God`s word about it.

 

"Name it and claim it" is not the gospel, nor is health and wealth.  Jesus never said that His followers would be wealthy and healthy all their lives.  He even said that the world hated Him and would hate His followers also.  A Christian is not promised a life without difficulty, but a Christian is promised that the Lord would be with him at all times to help get through problems....whatever they are.  He will not desert us no matter what. Sometimes I don`t understand difficulties that enter my life, and there have been some huge ones, but the Lord always is there, always with comfort, and always telling me that I am His.  Situations change here on earth in the blink of an eye, but the love God has for me DOES NOT CHANGE......EVER.  When all is going really bad, when life seems to be going down the drain, I can then tell myself, "I am more than an overcomer", "I am beloved by God", "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus", this problem and even this life is but one minute step on the road leading to eternity and is an insignificant matter in the BIG picture of my relationship with my God.  Maybe my response to whatever difficulty confronting me at the present time is to show someone, somewhere, how one of God`s children handles a mess like this.  I really can`t handle it very well, but my Father can....so I turn it over to Him and my feeble human attempts to deal with it.  Oh, I do what I can, like apologize if it is appropriate, but God says He is my defender.  He give me peace and showers me with love.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I sensed a division here over a small concern about pride.  Self pride is the sin that got satan and is bad, but pride in the fact that we are God`s family and can take part in family activities, have close fellowship with Him, and place our worldly condition in His hands, is so very good as to be indescribable.

 

A child of the living God, redeemed by His mercy and grace, His very righteousness(by His own words), heir to God`s riches, and so greatful to be loved by the God of the universe,

 

 

Charlie


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#9 Julie Daube

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 11:50 AM

Charlie,
Thanks for your post and for your caveat about divisions. I, too, would prefer not to see this discussion become a debate.

I especially liked the following statements you made:

"Anyone who would stand in front of a mirror and say that they are 'the apple of God`s eye' because of anything they themselves have done....simply does not understand the gospel. BUT...I do not think that is what Julie (or Joseph Prince) is saying here.

“Since we are God`s own righteousness, there is nothing wrong with reveling in it day and night....as long as we know it is a gift that we didn`t deserve and was made available at Christ`s expense. That is not pride in ourselves, but being greatful for what God, in His infinite mercy, has done for us.”

This is the heart of what I was trying to express in posting the devotional. Thanks for articulating it so well, Charlie. May you continue to revel in God’s grace and what Jesus has done for us.

#10 Speilb

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:57 PM

I think somehow people are reading my posts with an angry tone but I only have written out of Christian love and a desire for people to correctly understand the Word of God and for Him to have all the Glory He is due.  Yes, I disagree with the Prince quote but I feel I should have liberty here to discuss my Biblical objections.  Though my next post will be my last for the year.

 

I do not want to be what is wrong with American Politics.  I don’t want to make debates and be divisive.  I don’t want to pressure people into backing into a position.  I especially don’t want to do all these things over a trivial point.  But I don’t believe I have done any of these things.  I have expressed concerns about a quote that I don’t see as Biblical. 

 

Let me respond those concerns first of all.  I think there is much wrong with American Politics including people “digging in”.  But if we don’t dig in here I think we agree that there should actually be more debate about things like, “what the Constitution says, what it meant, and how it was used by the original writers”.  To me that is more the nature of our debate.  Whether people dig or not is everyone’s own responsibility.  I try to write in a way that doesn’t cause people to dig in but if I fail your still responsible for weighing things out by scripture. 

 

To me digging in relates to pride and insecurity but not to a correct view of oneself.  A healthy view of oneself, in my view, should produce an ability to look at correction without resorting digging in to a particular opinion.  We should concern ourselves with speaking in love but ultimately everyone is responsible how they respond.

 

Originally I suggested that people should really question the quote of Prince, by the Bible and to get an outside opinion.  The reason I did this rather than dissect it is for the very reason that I didn’t want to personally debate this.    

Later I responded when many verses were given in support of the Prince quote.  I agreed with the importance of knowing who we are in Christ.  But, I do have some concerns about the quote and I didn’t see the verses given as supporting what Prince was suggesting. 

 

Later when I did respond, I didn’t respond because I thought it would be fun.  I didn’t respond because I love debating minor points.  I responded because I see what is contained in the Prince quote as being Biblically incorrect and I believed it was of great enough significance to respond.  Be assured my understanding of “poverty of Spirit” is of great importance to me.  And, like Jonathan Edwards, I do consider spiritual pride to be major path to failure for the believer. 

 

So what should I do?  I chose to respond and to warn of what I see as a danger.  That was my only purpose (that I am aware of).  But I cannot make any apologies about my conviction that the quote is not Biblical in its usage of scriptural terms and concepts.



#11 Speilb

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:31 PM

I once confronted a man much wiser then I am.  I wrote to him a letter that was worded much the same way I have worded my previous responses.  His response proved that my high view of him was justified.  He told me, “Never apologize for your convictions”.  He was right; out of respect for him I apologized in my correction of him because I understood he is a wiser, more experienced and greater man than I am.  So here goes without apology I believe that Prince is absolutely wrong and I do not want for anyone here to follow him in this.  I think this dangerous and puts us in a position where God in his love might seek to humble us (which from much experience I can say is not fun - but also produces worship and joy). 

 

I understand that my world view is somewhat hard for some to understand.  I understand it is confusing to some why I see this as a big deal.  For me the discussion relates also to other discussions we have had as well.   

 

Is "The Disciples who Jesus loves" a term we should use to boost our esteem?  I whole-heartedly believe it is not.  The term was only ever used for John.  With perhaps the exception of Prince I have never heard anyone claim anything other than that John used the term out of humility as to not identify himself directly.  Furthermore, should we apply individual terms of the disciples to ourselves and if so how should we pick which term to use?  Should we pick John's term or Paul's term "the least of the apostles" or even "chief sinner"?  I do not believe those terms are for us.  I do not believe we should take a term used in humility to boost our spiritual esteem.   

 

Should we set expectations of God what he will cause “Everything I do and touch shall be blessed!” as was quoted?  Does God promise this?  I don’t want this to be an occasion for us to dig in so lets all admit that this is not what any of us believe.  He does promise that he will work out everything for the good of those who love Him but this doesn’t mean everything we do and touch will be blessed.  It is by the grace of God he doesn’t cause everything we do and touch to be blessed.  Job understood this in Job 2:10 "But he said to her, "You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?" In all this Job did not sin with his lips."  My concern is that if we passively accept such "name it and claim it" principles we will eventually stop seeing their error. 

 

Do we see any Biblical example of affirming ourselves as the Apple of His eye (yes, it is Biblical term, but is it used in personal affirmation or in things like pleading with God)?  Do we see this type of spiritual affirmation in scripture?  Or are we best to understand our position in Him through lowliness, and spiritual poverty? 

 

Is such positive thinking “how you access the Lord’s abundant love and provision for you, and step into His rest and peace today."?  No, we access his abundant love and provision by His Grace alone.  We don’t start thinking highly of ourselves (even because of who we are in Christ) and then we get His abundant love and provision?  Is this really how we step into his rest and peace?     

 

Is this the kind of message the Apostles handed down to us?  Is this the kind of message we would hear from a D.L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, or any of the greats of our faith?  I can tell you it is not.  To me this mirrors the so called New Reformation of Robert Schuller and it is unbiblical and wrong.    

 

Behind all of this is the question, "who is in charge of uplifting me?".  Am I to uplift myself, even through Christian avenues or am to pursue lowliness, humility, and understanding my own depravity and outsource completely to God the responsibility of being the lifter of my head?  James has a formula for being uplifted.  4:9 "Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up."

 

In our church we are currently studying two of the greatest revivals in the Bible.  In Nehemiah we are currently in chapter 9 (the rival starts in 8 but is still building) and in Acts we are chapter 2.  In Nehemiah the people realize that as a people they had forgotten about God and yet he had blessed them and they are filled with repentance, and weeping, mixed with celebration of God's work.  In Acts where we studied the other night we saw Peter convict the whole crowd of murder and then revealed to them that this person who they felt they had authority over (to have killed) was raised and now sits in a position of supreme authority while God is personally going to subdue His enemies (that means them if they don't repent) under Jesus' feet.  That caused them to cry out "what must we do to be saved (from God's wrath).  On that day some 3000 people were convicted, repented, and were baptized.  I have trouble believing the next morning any of them were standing in-front of a mirror confessing "I am the apple of God's eye".  Instead they were deeply humbled that God would take in a murderer like them and give them a new start through baptism.  Maybe some of them were in tears realizing that they had become part of the apple of God's eye but I cannot believe they were using it to uplift themselves. The old revivals involved people pleading for God to bring them lower so that they might worship Him with even higher praise.  

 

Yes, we should know who we are.  Yes, we should understand that we are saints (through we agree the sainthood of Christ applied to us who are His and we could never earn such a title).  But I don't believe at all in self-esteem and personal uplifting. Scripture warns us against being “puffed up” but doesn’t ever say “unless it is spiritual pride which is ok”.   

 

Remember the First Beatitude “Happy are the poor in spirit”

 

Remember Micah 6:8 “He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God? “  How are we to walk with our God?  Are we to say “God you love me so much, I am the apple of your eye” how can we say that is walking humbly with our God?  Yes we should recognize who we are but again that should be humbling to us to realize who were are.  I think we should look in the mirror and be humbled and wonder at how it was that God would choose us. 

 

Consider 1 Corinthians 4 perhaps on the first reading you will not see it but if you really study it you will find that the pride talked about there has to relate to spiritual pride and not a pride that is apart from who God made them by His Grace.  I don’t think it is at all a stretch to say that one of the greatest problems facing the Corinthian Church was spiritual pride.    

 

My guess is someone will likely want to say, “that post didn’t sound very humble”.  Be assured that God knows my heart.  My conscious is clear, but I care very little how I am judged here, but I will stand before Him and I am sure he will expose things I did in clear conscious as having not been pure.  But please don’t be distracted by me.  Weigh out for yourselves the Scriptures. 

 

Again, I believe this will be my last post for at least the year so ask you to be cautious not to misunderstand my points since I will not be clarifying them.  Please also trust I want the best for all of you.  I have written very directly because I feel that when I have not my points have been lost or misunderstood or simply not accounted for as people. 

 

May The Lamb receive All the praise, honor and glory,

 

James



#12 Charles Miles

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:57 AM

I am concerned about what happened with this thread .  My feeble attempt explaining my understanding of these doctrinal differences probably was not needed and I hope did not cause anyone to feel that they were being "set upon".  I do not believe in the "name it and claim it" theology, and I do not ever think we are to be pridful in our relationship with the Father, but neither do I subscribe to the belief that we are so lowly as to consider ourselves as "worms" in God`s eyes.  I was dead and now I am alive due to the work done by Christ who died as my substitute, went to hell, suffered punishment for all mankind(including me), rose from the dead, and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as my advocate.  This does make me a member of God`s family, His child, one who is able to have a special, personal relationship with the eternal God who has given me His own righteousness so I can boldly present myself before Him to make my requests known.  God has gone to a lot of trouble to give me this opportunity(key word here is GIVE), so am I supposed to act like a lowly, groveling, in the dirt worm before Him?  I have no pride in myself, because I have done nothing that could possibly merit such favor from Him, but I do have pride in what God has done for me.....maybe the word here is extreme, heartfelt, unabashed, more than I can ever display or say.....greatfulness.  My love for God is within me to a degree that I cannot express, in words, but that is not even worth discussing......what is the main thing, the overriding thing, and the most improtant and impressive thing is that God loves me!  Unending, limitless, complete love that is undeserved and unfathomable.  Is that humbling?  You bet it is.  But then I`m part of the family, one of His children, I do have a special place....not by doing anything by myself.  We are not to presume upon God, but we are to acknowledge the fact that we are His and know that that is a special place.

 

In Christ`s love,

 

Charlie


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#13 Julie Daube

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

James,

Thank you for your concern for God’s Word to be correctly understood and interpreted. Thank you also for standing firm in your convictions. I do believe your concerns are valid, and I think this may just be a simple misunderstanding.

Since your last two posts were rather long, time will not permit me to address each of your points. For the purpose of clarity, however, I would like to address the following:

"Is 'The Disciples who Jesus loves' a term we should use to boost our esteem? I whole-heartedly believe it is not. The term was only ever used for John. With perhaps the exception of Prince I have never heard anyone claim anything other than that John used the term out of humility as to not identify himself directly."

It is unfortunate that I did not post the original devotional in its entirety. I believe the excerpt I posted took out of context Prince's meaning in referring to oneself as "the disciple whom Jesus loves."

I can't find the original devotional so I'll do my best to explain how Prince prefaced the remarks I posted. He said he believes John was so sure of Jesus' love for him that it is how he identified himself. Prince then went on to say that all believers can have the same confidence in Christ's love for us that John had. From the context, it wasn't about boosting self-esteem but about being fully confident of Christ's love for us.

This is why I liked the term "reveling," which Charlie used. Based on the context of the entire devotional, that is the sentiment that came across to me – that Prince was encouraging believers to revel in Jesus' love for them.

Is it possible that Prince was mistaken in his understanding of John's use of the phrase? Of course; all of us can get things wrong sometimes as we approach particular Scriptures. But I honestly don’t believe his intention was to promote self or ego. In fact, in other devotionals of his that I've read, he exhorts believers to be "Christ-occupied" rather than "self-occupied."

One more thing: As followers of Jesus, I believe we can speak His blessings over ourselves and our circumstances, indeed over everything that touches us. Can we dare to say that everything we touch is blessed? I believe we can, but only because Jesus is living in us and through us. This doesn’t mean we won’t suffer or go through hardships. It does mean we can be blessed in the midst of those difficulties, because Jesus is our sufficiency. I have been through many trials and troubles, and even in the darkest of times and most dire predicaments, I still experienced God's favor and blessing. Perhaps this is what Prince meant when he said, "Everything I touch is blessed." It isn't because of anything in our flesh, but because of Jesus in us.

In closing, I think this was a simple misunderstanding on both sides. James, I apologize if I have misunderstood you. It was not my intention to infer that your posts were motivated by anything other than Christian love and the desire for people to correctly understand God’s Word. Thank you for caring enough to share your concerns.

Grace and peace,

Julie
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#14 Charles Miles

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:02 PM

I wish to say I`m sorry to any I have offended or made uncomfortable with my posts in this thread....or any other discussion for that matter.  My point was to say that we, as Christians, have worth, we have standing, we have a personal relationship with God the Father.  I did not mean to suggest that anyone was suggesting anything but that as a fact.  If I came across as prideful or boastful, I did not ever desire to suggest or project that at all.  I have worth only because God SAYS I have worth....only the Lord is worthy.  I am righteous because God says I am righteous.  Do I feel righteous or do I feel as though I have worth to God?  Not very often as I struggle through situations in this life that shake me to the core, but even as I struggle, even as I am not always understood, and maybe times that I AM understood.....I have righteousness and worth because God tells me that I have them.  I not only have righteousness, God says that I am His very righteousness...through Jesus.  God says He loves me, a sinner who has been made alive from death, and just the fact that He can love the likes of me is beyond anything I can understand. But He says He does, and He is truth, he is life, and I accept His word as truth eternal.

 

My opinions on these matters mean nothing, even less than nothing.  I have a King. I serve a King. I am the representative of a King.  I do not try to ever have a personal opinion.  My opinion is my King`s opinion.  Sometimes I jump into a discussion and give my opinion on the matter.....wrong, wrong, wrong!! 

 

I ask for your prayers tonight as I seek His will and ask forgiveness for any confusion or discord caused by me on this or any other matter.

 

Praise God because He alone is worthy,

 

Charlie



#15 Julie Daube

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:39 PM

Dear Charlie,

 

Thank you for your grace and humility. I welcomed your contribution to this discussion and was truly blessed and edified by your insights. I honestly don't believe you said anything that should have been perceived as offensive or contentious. I will pray for you tonight, though; and my prayer is that you will rest in Christ's forgiveness, mercy, and grace, knowing that any and all offense against God and and man is under His precious blood. Be at peace, my friend.

 

In Christ's love,

 

Julie



#16 Candice

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:48 PM

First, I miss you all but can't find time to post often due to working full time.

Generally, what's with so many men running off the forum when someone does not see eye-to-eye on every dot and tittle?? This is like the fourth person to up and leave this forum after not convincing others of their point or opinion. Not what we should do in love IMO. So, be at peace with all men...

Then, I think one needs to know that Joseph Prince preaches the word as opposed to Olsteen. No comparison. But the two have shared the pulpit. Agree that Osteen is psychology, etc. not for me

I think Joseph Prince kind of needs to be taken in his entirety; so to speak, and see his comparison to law and grace in many well-studied and delivered sermons. Don't agree with him 100%? Who agrees with anyone 100%?

I like Spurgeon's evening devotional tonite. Not exactly related, but..

Question: can we really balance law and grace? Law kills. Grace gives life

"The people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed, and running to him saluted him."
Mark 9:15

How great the difference between Moses and Jesus! When the prophet of Horeb had been forty days upon the mountain, he underwent a kind of transfiguration, so that his countenance shone with exceeding brightness, and he put a veil over his face, for the people could not endure to look upon his glory. Not so our Saviour. He had been transfigured with a greater glory than that of Moses, and yet, it is not written that the people were blinded by the blaze of his countenance, but rather they were amazed, and running to him they saluted him. The glory of the law repels, but the greater glory of Jesus attracts. Though Jesus is holy and just, yet blended with his purity there is so much of truth and grace, that sinners run to him amazed at his goodness, fascinated by his love; they salute him, become his disciples, and take him to be their Lord and Master. Reader, it may be that just now you are blinded by the dazzling brightness of the law of God. You feel its claims on your conscience, but you cannot keep it in your life. Not that you find fault with the law, on the contrary, it commands your profoundest esteem, still you are in nowise drawn by it to God; you are rather hardened in heart, and are verging towards desperation. Ah, poor heart! turn thine eye from Moses, with all his repelling splendour, and look to Jesus, resplendent with milder glories. Behold his flowing wounds and thorn-crowned head! He is the Son of God, and therein he is greater than Moses, but he is the Lord of love, and therein more tender than the lawgiver. He bore the wrath of God, and in his death revealed more of God's justice than Sinai on a blaze, but that justice is now vindicated, and henceforth it is the guardian of believers in Jesus. Look, sinner, to the bleeding Saviour, and as thou feelest the attraction of his love, fly to his arms, and thou shalt be saved.

Now let's all get along, extend grace and be still.
Love,
Candice
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#17 Julie Daube

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 07:24 AM

Thanks for taking the time to chime in, Candice! I value your opinion and agree with your assessment that Joel Osteen tends to more into pop psychology. Admittedly, I have read some solid, biblical teaching from him now and then; I think he just goes over the top sometimes in merging such teachings with what we often hear from self-esteem gurus.

Yesterday I was reflecting on the idea in the Prince devotional that everything we touch can be blessed. Suddenly the following verse popped into my head:

"The LORD will command the blessing upon you in your barns and in all that you put your hand to, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God gives you." (Deut.28:8.)

I am sure there are believers who would say this promise applies only to the Old Testament Israelites, and that's their prerogative. Others would state that as followers of Jesus and heirs to the promise, we can also apply the verse to ourselves. In any case, I think it provides a biblical basis for the sentiment expressed in the devotional.

I, too, find it disturbing when a brother in Christ leaves the forum over a difference of opinion. Thanks for your reminder to extend grace and be at peace with all men. I think it's possible to do so even amid disagreements (the phrase "iron sharpens iron" comes to mind).

Blessings to you!

Julie

#18 Charles Miles

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 09:20 AM

Well, today is a new day that the Lord has made, and I am glad in it.  As we, as christians, walk through life and all the bumps we find there, I continue to be amazed by a miriad of things along the way.  Satan has many tools which he uses with great skill(he is not stupid), and one of his best tools seems to be our idividual doctrinal differences......even the very tiny ones.  As we read the Bible as a whole, there are many, many stories and historical events mentioned, so we do have a multitude of facts over which we often get stuck and become dogmatic, fixated, and generally major on the minors.  I can imagine satan smiling and saying.."man, I really stopped them with that one". Well, I have read the ending of the book, and guess what....we win!  Why not at least act like the winners we are in the Lord? 

 

We can revel in the fact that we were dead, but now we are alive!  We were lost, alone, doomed, separated from God, but now we are able to have a personal relationship with the God of eternity, the God With Us, the God Who Supplies!!  Yes, there are many things to discuss and we sometimes stumble, but here is what we have.....God walked with us Incarnate in Jesus, He died for our sin, He was place in the grave dead, He went to Hell for us, and then He rose from the dead and now sits at the right hand of God the Father as our advocate in heaven.  We are His. we belong to Him, He has never lost anyone who was His, He loves us with a love that cannot be measured, and He has promised that we will be with Him for all eternity. 

 

Is there anyone out there who does not think this situation is one that should cause joy, happiness, the desire to shout each morning about how great God is? I boast in nothing but Jesus Christ and what He did for me.  When difficulties arise, shall I not speak this to myself?  I have, I do, and I shall continue to do so.

 

In Christ,

 

Charlie


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#19 Speilb

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 11:12 AM

I did not state why I was leaving the forum. 

I did not say we are under the law

I did not say we should view ourselves as worms

I did not say I was against understanding who we are in Christ

I do not believe the things I have posted are theologically trivial

I do not get angry with people not seeing eye to eye with me on every belief to which I hold (though I do get upset when I feel like people are not being honest in presenting beliefs). 

 

If I was leaving this forum over theological differences that is perfectly fine.  I can also leave because I didn't convince someone to change their mind.  I can do that and it is fine.  There are different kinds of posts.  When I posted here my hope was to cause people to question the theology of the quote.  If I was leaving because I feel people are not willing to consider my points, that is perfectly fine.  However, I am not leaving it over such things. 

 

My point in mentioning that I was leaving was in the hope that people might read what I wrote more carefully and to encourage people to not misunderstand my points (which again has happened). 

 

I had decided to leave (which is fine) because I feel like my points are lost in people moving my points to extremes that I did not say as in the examples above or dismissing them as small or insignificant.  I also don't like some of the practices that are employed in these discussions like the practice of someone disagreeing and then moving directly into glorying in the fact that they don't hold to the same view that they think I hold to (I am thinking of other discussions here more so than this one).  Furthermore, I decided to leave because, even with only reading a few posts and responding to even less, this can be quite time consuming for me (since I am long winded because I don't like to be misunderstood though I understand that my longwindedness probably produces misunderstanding since people are more likely to skim read).  There are I am sure many other reasons including that I am not having fun, that sometimes I write when I should be doing other things (as is the case right now).  

 

On the positive side I do enjoy that the forum causes me to think about things and presents things in ways I haven't considered or about things I was unaware of.  I have looked also to this as a way to sharpen me in my views.  

 

I hope to make this my last post for the year but I will not say it is likely as I did before.  

 

Sincerely,

James 



#20 Julie Daube

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:31 PM

Hi James,

Thanks for clarifying your reasons for taking a break from the forums. I agree you have every right to do so. I also apologize for any assumptions I made about why you chose to leave.

I understand you want people to read what you wrote more carefully. I am sure you realize how that may be a challenge when your posts are so long. Unfortunately, I did not have time to read your previous two posts in their entirety, so I could only skim them. As a result, I may have misunderstood you; if that's the case, I hope you will bear with me.

Here's something else to consider: sometimes, misunderstandings arise in these types of forums because they are a mediated form of communication. Since there is no eye contact or tone of voice, something that is not stated in anger may come across that way without the writer intending it to. On a similar note, I read in a recent study that neutral statements in e-mails are often interpreted as angry or negative.

I am glad you do enjoy the forum and that it causes you to think about things in ways you haven't considered. Thanks for your reminder that disagreements are okay and can sharpen us in our views.

Blessings to you,

Julie