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The Fear of God must Return to the House of God - An Angry Venting by a broken man


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#21 Speilb

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 01:15 PM

I apprietiate all the interaction and challenges on this subject. I do believe that the more we refine our understanding of the fear of God the better equiped we are to live lives to please Him (I think we can all agree on that). I think we can also all agree that no Christian should possess hatred or ill-will towards anyone. Hatred has no place in the Christian's heart and vengeance is the Lord's. Like Charles, I can say there is no-one I have any hatred towards. However, I can tell you I do have anger at the dispicable actions of Boko Haran in Nigeria. Not only that but to perhaps be controversial, I was infact happy when I read about the recent snake and bee attacks on these wicked people. My hope is that some will see these attacks as being from God and turn from their wickedness. My hope is also that fear might motivate others to stop what they are doing.
I am not familiar with E. Stanley Jones, but I looked him up and found him to be notable for interfaith dialog with Hinduism and for his interactions with Gandhi. I have worked a fair amount with Hindus in the past and have a special place in my heart for them. I also have great respect for people like William Carey and have a close family friend whose last name is "Williams" because her great ancestor came to Christ because of Carey and therefore changed their last name to "Williams". I have interacted even with someone from India whose last name is "Thomas" and is a Spiritual descendent of the Disciple Thomas. In general I am wary of interfaith dialog but people like William Carey (who translated many of the Hindu Vedas) seemed to be able to walk the line with it and not compromise. What is a good introductory book on E. Stanley Jones?
As for the quote. I believe behind the quote is something like
John 14 7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.”8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10“Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Mr. Charles, would you say you know me? I recon your response might be something of a "yes and no" type response. Maybe more "no" than "yes" because while you know some things about me what you know is limited to small amount and through only one form of communication which gives you nothing of my facial expression, little of my tone, and in only one sphere.
Did the disciples know Jesus by the time of crucifixion? I would say "yes and no". I recon they spent more time with Jesus in their time together than many married couples spend with eachother in 10 years of marriage. But they didn't know Him as the Risen One yet (that is a pretty significant part of His identity). Later two of them spend significant time talking with Him while they walked together and didn't even recognize him (though later they knew they should have been able to identify Him). They didn't grasp Him as the Eternal One (not that any of us can in any real measure). They didn't grasp him as the "all-powerful one" or the "all-knowing one". They didn't understand Many of the most important aspects of Jesus' identity. I don't think anyone can grasp such things as the Trinity (though I think St. Patrick's explanation is one of the best but it is at best very basic). Then at Pentecost their understanding took a massive leap. But I recon John's understanding also took a pretty big step forward on the Island of Patmos. John's experience on Patmos negated nothing of what he knew about Jesus, but it did give him a more rounded understanding of Jesus.
Even with their limited understanding prior to Pentecost there were many times when we have recorded that they feared Jesus. They were at times afraid to ask him questions, or they were fearful at times when his power over the natural world showed through. I also recon they were afraid because Jesus had a pattern of addressing their thoughts or the conversations that they had specifically kept Jesus out of (like the 'who is the greatest' debates). I know for me walking with a person who 'hears' all of my thoughts would be a fearful thing and it is. The fear helps keep me in line in two ways 1) it makes we not want to put myself in a position where God in His love has to correct me 2) (and more importantly) fear motivates me because I know that fear is not enough to keep me in line, to ask for His help in living the life He desires. Does this mean I am not motivated by love? No it doesn't, but if my love for myself trumps my love for God in a time of weakness, then I have to my advantage a fear that says "God is rightful in punishing me for this".
For the last year and a half I have been leading a Bible study in our home on the book of Mark. Last night we finished the book with the last words that Mark actually wrote (that means 16:8). It reads; "They went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had gripped them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid." And that is how the book ends. I can understand why others come along later and gave additional endings. But John Mark was comfortable with ending the book with trembling and astonished fear.
Yes, to know Jesus, is to know God. And we can say that to know God is to know Jesus. Jesus stood against the religious leaders on this point saying that if they truly knew God as they claimed they would have recognized Jesus as well, but as it was they didn't recognize Jesus because they didn't really know God the Father.
So what I know about God the Father can inform my understanding of Jesus and the other way around as well.
But if we are looking at Jesus and defining God by Jesus then we need to make sure we get the most complete picture of Jesus. I can see Jesus as Zechariah 9 informs me of Jesus being "Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey." and the Gospels describe this event as well.
The Jews didn't have a view of the Messiah being a humble non-political leader. They expected a conquering hero, a political leader, and a man who would lead their nation and the world from Jerusalem. But instead he comes humble and riding on a donkey, and not just a donkey but a feeble foal. Were the Jews wrong in their expectation? Absolutely not. For the most part the problem isn't what they believed about the Messiah, it was that they defined Jesus based on some things at the cost of others. I believe Christians often do the same thing (only the opposite way). We define Christ too much as humble and mild at the expense, in my estimation, of the likes of Revelation 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
Should we see Jesus as a lamb looking as if he was slain? Absolutely, the Bible paints the picture for us as well. Should we see him as someone who is coming to make war and judge? Absolutely. Should our view of Jesus be informed by him lowly and riding on a donkey or laying aside his majesty to be found in the form of a man? Yes, but we cannot forget about him as the One who all authority has been given to. We must see him as the one who had every right to stone the woman caught in adultery (as he said let him who has no sin cast the first stone) but he chooses rather to not condemn her and send her away with the admonition to stop sinning. Yet, we must also see him as he describes Himself in Matthew 7 21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
So I agree that we can define God by Jesus, and say the reverse is also true. But I don't want to limit my understanding of God or Jesus by certain attributes at the expense of others. I think, in general, we have become too mechanical in our understanding and engagement of God. We use systematic theology to make scrap books of the parts of Jesus we like best: Jesus, is loving and we list the evidence. Jesus is humble, and mild, a bruised reed he does not bend, and on we go. Sometimes I wonder if some people come around the Church at Christmas because that is their favorite picture of Jesus, cute, cuddly, and in need of care. One of the greater insights that Tozer advocated for was to view Jesus as having a personality. There is a freedom in seeing Him as having a personality. Contained in one personality can be things that don't on the surface seem to correspond such as love and anger, mercy and judgement, humility and exercised authority and recognition of greatness, gentleness and aggression, and much more of the like.
I conclusion, I would say we shouldn't walk in friendship with Christ and fear of God but instead in both friendship and fear of God and in both friendship and fear of Jesus.
Submitted with love and respect,
James
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#22 Charles Miles

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Posted 03 July 2014 - 05:36 PM

James,  I think you have posted a marvelous summary of your relationship with the Lord.  I can only stand silent at your excellent understanding of that relationship and where you are in your walk with Him.  I find no fault with anything you have stated.  We look at some things differently(only minimally so), and that is probably because we are two different people in two different stages of our walk with our Lord.  Are one of us right and one of us wrong?  I don`t think so.  We just come to the Lord as we are and seek to know Him as best we can.  Much like the 2 blind men who both feel of an elephant and describe what he must look like.  One feeling of the trunk and one feeling of the ear.  They both tell about what they know by tactile sense and both are correct while both are dealing with incomplete knowledge of an elephant.

 

A personal relationship with the Lord is just that...a personal relationship.  God deals with each of us in the place where we are at a given time and that could take on a multitude of dealings(I don`t know exactly how to say that), but He knows how to deal with each of His children as circumstances occur, and as life happens.  My life has brought me through a whole myriad of situations, some good and some very bad, but His love for me has always been steadfast and unchanging through it all. I love Him, respect Him, trust Him, depend on Him, and I could not live another instant without Him in my life, but all that pales before the fact that He loves me more than I can fathom.  I want to please Him and remain in His "favor" every day of my life(I fail but I keep trying), but in my personal walk with Him, this desire is not due to "fear" but due to a response to His love for me.  Maybe my motivation for attempting to please God is not theologically correct for everyone, but I`m pretty sure it is correct for me at this stage of my relationship with Him. My motivation does not involve fear of God`s anger, it involves a deep desire to please my Heavenly Father because of what He has already done for me

 

None of us understand the totality of God or even the totality of His love for us, and certainly we don`t understand why, after all the messes we get ourselves into, why He would give us His own righteousness so we could have this personal relationship with Him.  Man`s reasoning must stand in awe struck silence before such an outpouring of that kind of love for us.  If I am wrong about this "fear of God" thing, well, I`m wrong, but maybe that is not how all relationships with Him work all the time.  I will continue to pray and discuss this with Him, and if He sees it differently, He will let me know about it. 

 

I respect you as a brother in Christ Jesus and I hope you know that I write all this in love and from my heart,

 

Charlie


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#23 Ginger

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 12:35 PM

... Personally I come from a position that the measure of faith dealt to me is more than I can fathom.
 
I don't use the old card as one who has been successful, but only as an old lady with concern, and sadness; with grace and tender mercies from God; and some hope, faith and love, Hoping to please Abba Father and do the best I am able because of God's manifold grace; and because of all that Jesus did.
 
Reckon I have come, or am still coming to trust that the LORD is able to save to the uttermost coz I surely can't save myself or succeed in anything unless He makes it so.... O to please God..... To give Him pleasure..... To give Him honor and glory and praise.....
 
What causes me to cringe and become even more feeble are harsh words... be the words from a stronger person or a weaker person.  As a person, I am just older and have so many faults and failings that anyone could accuse me of being wrong and doing this wrong; or of that, and it be my failing to do right. 
 
Some people truly do struggle to just believe and give thanks for God's Grace and Tender Mercies because that is truly the best that they can do.  Unless I can have compassion on other persons and love them as Jesus loved me and loves me I am all undone.... so I reckon this post is just the post of an old lady who is 'undone' and has not come close to being an 'elder'.  I reckon that  I am only an old lady who hopes to see Jesus and sit at His feet... Please Lord, please and thank you....
 
The Apostle Paul knew the extremes of strength and of weakness.  Paul admonished the people that he taught and still teaches by the Holy Spirit.  ...The love chapter of the Bible was written at a time in Paul's life when he was struggling and learning to love ...  Don't recall the piece written because I read it so many years ago and was having a huge problem with the writings of Paul.... God blessed me with what I needed at that time and helped me make an attitude adjustment.  Reckon I get admonished when I'm attitudinally challenged day by day and praise God for this too.  In everything give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Do not have to thank God for all things, but in all things, so this helps too... O thank you God for your grace and tender mercies.....
 
Again as is personal for me, I can admire a Christian who has a zeal for the LORD and of one who has the compassion and the wisdom of a true elder.  And I am reminded that if I think that I know something I do not yet know as I ought..... Paul wrote this in his writings to the Corinthians. 
 
What Bible story helps me is the one about the man who sat outside the gate of the rich man... Praise God, ......... that poor man had things that were visibly grotesque.  And he died and was carried to the bosom of Abraham... The rich man cried out after he died and was in suffering.... O Dear LORD.... "Thou Knowest"..... (God KNOWS, people suppose).... I only know I don't have a clue most of the time....I only hope in what Jesus has done and that He is our high priest.... and the only words I am truly afraid of hearing Jesus say is "Depart from me."..... So I have fear of the LORD and my hope is in Him for He keeps granting 'us' mercy..... O to see Jesus face to face... forever.
 
Will share a piece written after my Momma ask me to tell her if I learned if there are any golden years and to let her know. I tried to do so.....And will trust God for seeing her in heaven... When she died I was given the thought, "You don't have to worry she's with me.: The same words came when one of my sisters died.... this is now a matter of faith.... Faith, hope, and love one day at a time....
 
.... May the piece give honor to God and help to someone. I hope it may be of some blessing for I don't know how to debate, and think debating is well, goes right along with why I don't play games... I'm not good at playing checkers so I was told long, long ago because I could only see but one checker on the board.... And as for playing dominoes I was told it took me too long to count the spots....
 
So there is only one thing I do know and that is I hope to see my Lord Jesus and that He paid a high price for us, so I hope and pray that I don't displease Him and hope that I truly love Him.
 
God bless each of your beloved children, one by one.  And Abba Father thank you that my earthly father told me 'to live and learn'.... Then my Abba Father made me to know that I did not know how to live and He would teach me.
 
May He keep each of us In His Love and His Tender Mercies.
 
 
Ginger
 
___________________________________________________________________________

sometimes I am so blessed

sometimes I am so blessed
and sometimes don't have a clue
about what to think, or say, or do.

been read'n n write’n
listen'n and pray'n too,
wonder'n upon "Wonders"

remaining still
resting in quietness,
sheltered in peaceful Love.

pondering
praying
prosing

words can come like
a soft breeze rustling
light-filled leaves

making surroundings serene
listening, hearing, an imperative,
"Come...” every day,

“Come", without knowing
people, places or things,
ponder in stillness,

letting whatever be
in the Potter's hands
like a lump of clay,

while times clock spins on
making golden moments to
think on Eternity’s 'golden years'.

He was,
He is,
He is to come.

–Virginia Eastwood
Sunday, June 13, 2010
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#24 chipped china

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 04:49 AM

James, I just wanted to make a small comment on your commentary on Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

You said, "Should we see Jesus as a lamb looking as if he was slain?" I have been taught that the blood on His robe is the blood of His enemies, in which case we should be ever mindful that His absolute righteousness will rule. In my case this causes distress in me that more people especially people I love do not understand this. They think they can work their way to heaven. In fact our salvation has nothing to do with us, it is a free gift. All we have to do is believe and trust Him.

This is where my anger surfaces. Religion has done more harm that good. It was the religious people that insisted the Romans crucify Jesus. Religion teaches us we have to do certain things to please God. We are always trying to reach up to Him and it is Him reaching down to us. Legality in the Christian religion has my older sister so turned off by what man has done she has told me she will never be born again. It's a bad word to her. I get frustrated with myself because it's my selfish soul that keeps trying to save her, I don't want the pain of knowing she will not be in heaven with me.

I too have a tender spirit for Hindu's. My nephew just married a Hindu woman and I love her. She is lovingly open and caring. I meet her parents and her father humbly bows his head with his hands held in prayer to greet you. How do you say, you've got it all wrong? How do I tell my sister he's going to hell?
Ridiculous, I have to lay it at the feet of Jesus. Like Ginger says, He knows. I don't have to, I just have to worship Him and keep trying to be an empty vessel for Him to fill.

I hate the cruel and senseless things that man does. I feel torn about the world, on the one hand they know not what they do. I want to have empathy but end up saying vengeance is the Lords. I want to grow in compassion for the hurting but if I think about it too much I get depressed and start wondering why the Lord doesn't return and put an end to the madness. It seems I am so spoiled with a rich life that I need to get honest and let go of all the stuff. The Lord gives and He takes away. Maybe it's not what I have but the value I put on it. The only thing that won't be burned up when He returns are the imperishable.


But ya know what? Jesus loves me just the way I am right this moment. I have assurance of where I will be in eternity because I believe. What our God wants from us is a loving intimate relationship. He wants us to throw ourselves at His feet in complete abandon, then He can work through us and that is what pleases Him. The hardest thing we have to do is get out of His way. Do I die to Him each day? Hardly, but I know this is my job. Peace and God's love to you all. betsy








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#25 Speilb

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:02 AM

Chipped China,

Thank you for your concern for the Word of God; it is perfect and we must do everything to protect it.  Furthermore if someone misquotes or misinterprets something I think we are responsible (if their is any hope of success) to address the situation. So again thank you.    

 

I agree with your understanding of the blood in 19:13.  The point I was trying to make was actually to contrast the passage from Revelation 19 with Revelation 5:6.  Sometimes, I am a little lazy to look up all the scriptures I quote.  So my point was that we should have a view of Christ from both 5:6 and 19:13 even though they seem (on the surface) to be opposites. 

 

I agree with you on religion.  Not to endorse Marx in any way, but I think Christians should all agree with him on his "Religion is the Opiate of the masses" idea. 

 

As for Hindus; unlike many other religions Hindus on the surface are usually pretty open to hearing about the Gospel.  Some of their Vedas (Sacred Writings) even will say things like "the greatest of our god's is nothing more than a demon" or "the only way we could have hope of ever making it to Nirvana is if the God-head himself came down and shed his blood as a ransom".  Unfortunately I don't know of any good English translations of the Vedas and the best book I know of on the subject is only partially in English.  What I know about this is mostly from a former HIndu who was converted by reading the Vedas.     

 

I knew one Hindu who was very devout who was transferred to work on a project for a while in the US.  Before he came he talked with his Hindu spiritual mentor and they both felt that his trip was for the purpose of seeing God revealed to him through someone he would encounter here.  And they were most open to that person being a Christian!

 

We have also found that the Bibles we have given to Hindu people are often read.  I think a great number would also be interested in doing a Bible study.  The conversion of Hindus from darkness into The Light is not without difficulties but at least the conversation usually seems to be and open one. 

 

 

Thanks again,

Speilb


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#26 chipped china

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:28 PM

I agree that both scriptures give us a more complete picture of Christ and figured you were making a point.

 

It's interesting what you said about the Hindu's because my younger sister who is the mother of my nephew has told me that her daughter in law is open to learning about Christ. I pray often that they both will come to know Him. You gave me a good idea to gift them a bible. I'm sure my nephew already has one, he was brought in a loving Christian home. I wonder why he hasn't yet made the commitment to Jesus. Some of us had to sow our wild oats first, I know I did.



#27 Julie Daube

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 01:18 PM

I spent much of my life living in debilitating fear. A great portion of that fear was directed toward God. Even after becoming born again, I often saw Him as an ogre who was just waiting to punish me. This was not a holy awe or reverence; it was a complete misunderstanding of the character of my Daddy God and His heart toward me.

When I committed the slightest sin, I would be plunged into thoughts of guilt, condemnation, and self-loathing. I would imagine God looking down at me, eager to withdraw His blessings because I had failed to please Him. I kept thinking that whatever problems or struggles I had in life were the result of my failure to live up to His expectations. Thankfully, Jesus set me free from this lie when I started learning about my identity in Christ.

I am convinced that one of the keys to victorious Christian living is to know who we are in Christ. When we truly understand the incredible depth of His love for us, and who we are as His redeemed and beloved, we will struggle far less with sin. I’ve read numerous testimonies of believers who were delivered from addictions, habitual sins, and other strongholds after they started mediating on God’s grace, mercy, and unconditional love for them. The more conscious they were of Christ’s love and grace – and the incredible sacrifice He made to save them - the less they wanted to sin.

This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be angry at sin and wickedness. Anyone who knows me well knows that I am appalled by some of the evils in our nation and our world. I am outraged by the realities of human trafficking, government tyranny, abortion, genocide, and other atrocities. And I am especially angry when I see wolves infiltrating the church, posing as Christians but seeking to devour God's children.

I know these injustices break the heart of God. I also believe that the commandment to love our neighbor carries with it the duty to oppose these wrongs.

That being said, the heart of the gospel isn’t fear; it is grace. It is grace, not fear, that motivates God's people to holy living. It is knowing that we will never be righteous through our own efforts, but that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, that empowers us to live for Him.

Recently, I read in Alliance Life magazine about a former gangster who whose life was dramatically transformed through the power of the gospel. A week after he accepted Christ, “he confessed that he simply could not understand the change that had come over him,” Alliance missionaries wrote. “Grace had conquered.” The man went on to dedicate his life to winning others to Christ.
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#28 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:34 PM

It's happening everywhere. There is a large church here in town where all of the high society folks go to worship. They're pastor was in a relationship with the secretary (she was married and he was too).  And on and on it goes.  It's my belief that it is because of the lukewarmness of the church (as a whole) that these events are befalling it.

    Yet, Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail. And we can trust Him. Every word HE says. I appreciate your posts  and can tell that you are a man who loves Jesus.  And all of this corruption  IS heart-breaking.  I suppose that God's heart beaks too........since we are....intrinsically (?) part of Him since becoming twice-born.

   I wish that I could  think of something to say that would be of some help.

 Speaking of Jimmy Swaggert and his church.......we were on a mission trip to the French Quarter....and we were on Airways Blvd (if memory serves me) and someone in the car pointed out the motel that J.S. was using when that other pastor (of another large....competing....congregation) caught him and took pics of Swaggert.

   I use to watch TBN all of the time.  But even it has become such a money pit....surrounded by scandal......that I just don't watch it anymore unless I am watching the old Billy Graham classics. (I love to listen to the piano player as they sing hymns.)  Of course, I love hearing Dr. Graham preach as well!  I'm ramblin now......so I'll hush.