13 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

Picture a local church preaching the word faithfully, witnessing, supporting world missions, helping with needs, loving, having good activities, etc. That's enough, isn't it? Not really. Expository preaching (even exposition within a topic) is a great start. Training in doctrine; role playing in how to defend basic doctrines, tools and training in how to study the Bible, how to recognize error, a good reading program, group situations with interaction on being a real disciple, DVDs, CDs on vital topics are a few ways of equipping the saints. These can even begin with one on one and expand to increased numbers. The church environment that I grew in, did these kinds of things to the point that some of the cultists in the area cautioned their workers to avoid our people because our people might confuse them. Pretty good testimony, I would say. Being prepared this way protects new converts from being swayed by cleverly presented error. We are commanded to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth" (II Timothy 2:15). It is the responsibility and privilege of a local church to train and teach immature believers how to obey this command. Selah! The military wouldn't expect to prepare soldiers by just having them present at the fort. Why should we? Point taken?  Thinker  (Ron)

[Meema]

Ron, for the sake of keeping it real, while your point is completely valid, I have this question.

 

What determines the ‘rightness’ of a church? Being ostracized by other denominations? Being dynamic and attractive to a growing number of congregants? Needing more space to accommodate the bulging numbers? Perhaps it is the manifestation of miracles? Revelations? Prophecies? Is it the obvious complete devotion to the head of the church, the pastor, leader, teacher? Is it the number of books sold? DVDs burned and distributed?

 

I am not being contentious here. I am asking because I can point to many successful yet wholly apostate organizations that call themselves ‘church’ that people flock to for whatever individual reasons they have for ‘needing’ whatever that established group offers. 

 

Lately, I’ve been hyper-focused on truth because I fear there is a possibility of God removing the truth from those who refuse to see, so I offer the following quote from A.W. Tozer which seems to say better than anything I could compose:

The world is full of seekers, true enough, and they gravitate quite naturally toward the church. Seekers after peace of mind are plentiful enough to keep the printing presses busy; seekers after physical health are always with us in sufficient numbers to make our leading faith healers comfortably rich; seekers after success and safety are legion, as our popular religious leaders know too well. But real seekers after truth are almost as rare as albino deer. And here is why: Truth is a glorious but hard master. It makes moral demands upon us. It claims the sovereign right to control us, to strip us, even to slay us as it chooses. 

Truth will never stoop to be a servant but requires that all men serve it. It never flatters men and never compromises with them. It demands all or nothing and refuses to be used or patronized. It will be all in all or it will withdraw into silence. It was Christ who capitalized truth and revealed that it was not an it at all but a Being with all the attributes of personality. I am the Truth, He said, and followed truth straight to the cross. The truth seeker must follow Him there; and that is the reason few men seek truth.

The truth in the Person of the Logos, the Word, is seeking to illuminate the minds of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. For this reason, when we conceive ourselves to be honest seekers who cannot find the light we are in a state of dangerous self-deception. It is a grave situation. Unless help comes quickly the darkness may close down upon us permanently. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness. Behind all our failure to find light is an unconfessed and possibly an unconscious love of darkness. 

We should always remember that we are accountable not only for the light we have but also for the light we might have if we were willing to obey it. Truth is sovereign and will not allow itself to be trifled with. And it is easy to find for it is trying to find us. Obedience is the big problem: and unwillingness to obey is the cause of continued darkness.

For Christ,

Meema

This is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:19-21)

[Thinker]

Meema, I share your concern. It seems that we have lost our focus on Him and His Word. Have we become just an organization with a CEO, Board of Directors, a budget, programs, products and advertising? We're not a business (except possibly in the legal sense for purposes of incorporation. Even then, this must be incidental to what should be our focus). For all who are born again, we are a family. God is our Father. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. The Bible is our source of Truth and understanding and our Guidebook for life. We need to build Christians, not an organization. Let's minister, not run a Christian-coated business. Consider Ephesians 3:17-19. Paul wrote, under inspiration, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God." Thinker  (Ron)

[ADVRider]

What's a church to do?

 

I certainly do not have answers, but as with individual Christians, I think it's quite possible that a church could do "all the right things" and tick all the boxes, and still not produce disciples. I do believe we need to do the right things such as preach and teach, but we need to stress that these things are tools to equip the saints. The saints must then live out their faith and not just have it only reside in the "knowledge bank."  It is too easy in the modern world of the "expert" to see Christian doctrine as just another area of understanding or knowledge. Knowledge of spiritual concepts, in itself, does not make the saints mature. If anything, I think there needs to be much more teaching by example in intimate settings where believers are encouraged to "catch" what it means to walk with Christ. This would also include explaining that "church" cannot be one's whole Christian experience; it must go beyond that.

[Meema]

I read an analogy today, in another site. It was a paraphrase from yet another site so I can’t give it proper attribution. It was specifically referencing our current political conditions. But, frankly, I see a correlation to modern Christianity too–with a couple of minor tweaks.

 

Where we are now is like. . .

 

Being a passenger on a huge cruise ship. Everyone is partying, soaking up the sun on the lido deck, swimming in the pool, taking advantage of all the services offered thoroughly enjoying themselves. No worries. It’s all good. Blessings on blessings. Promises for even more blessings.

 

Then, by accident, on a tour of the ship, you have a glimpse into the pilot house and notice that pirates have taken over the ship and are steering it off to some unknown destination.

 

Panicked, you run to warn the rest of the passengers. However, no matter what you say, how loud you scream and warn and warn, no one pays attention. They are too busy behaving just as the world behaved in the days of Noah, eating, drinking and being merry, just as Christ predicted they would at the end.

 

And all you can do is sink into a deck chair and look out to the horizon where you can see nothing but water. It hits you that you are on a cruise ship heading full speed ahead toward disaster and no one wants to know about it and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

You are labeled a doomer/gloomer but you cannot pretend and party as though you don’t know the pressing reality so you mostly keep to yourself. At some point you realize you have stopped warning and are simply bracing for worst case scenario. 

 

There is a long history of God’s people being warned and warned. There is no reason to believe this generation is any different. In some ways it could be said we are worse. There are also numerous references in both the Old and New Testaments that a day does come when God stops the warnings, and blinds the eyes and closes the ears that refuse to see and hear. The five foolish virgins are not non-believers. 

 

(Isaiah 6:6) Then flew one of the seraphim unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:  (6:7) and he touched my mouth with it, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin forgiven.  (6:8) And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.  

 

(6:9) And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.  (6:10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed.  

 

(6:11) Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until cities be waste without inhabitant, and houses without man, and the land become utterly waste,  (6:12) and the Lord have removed men far away, and the forsaken places be many in the midst of the land.  

 

(6:13) And if there be yet a tenth in it, it also shall in turn be eaten up: as a terebinth, and as an oak, whose stock remaineth, when they are felled; so the holy seed is the stock thereof.           

 

 

For Him,

Meema

[Ginger]

Just thinking of how Christ in me may have touched some people today in a seemingly casual way yet also profoundly Him living and me only observing and now after reading the above posts, well, all I know is that this day it was about seeing another person differently and caring, perhaps the love of the Lord reached out and touched me to reach out and touch another person that Jesus paid the price for the person to have His salvation to the uttermost. 
 
 Today when a person called me on the phone and became what I choose to state as upset ... well again it is like the Holy Spirit gave me something special, firstly the Holy Spirit had something change within me and before the person got off the phone I was given a thank you.... all I know is I don't know exactly what God did but the first thing that happened had to do with an instant learning as Christ was doing what I could not do with myself or to be kind and loving to another person who had been upset then became calm as moments passed. 
 
Perhaps what may be happening in the church that Jesus is building that the gates of hell will not prevail against is somehow touching one person at a time and being crucified with Christ and it being a very holy and humbling thing to touch just one person's life for a brief time and somehow be reminded that it is Jesus the Christ our redeemer who lives and reigns........and perhaps seeing a miniscule manifestation of Christ's love make a difference in one on one interactions and have the Lord bring them to mind to reflect on and be in awe of Him and what He did during a few basic human interactions....
 
I hope and pray that this post may make some sense..... all I can think of now is wherever a Christian person goes Christ goes also and maybe it's just giving a cup of cold water and then finding out it really was in Jesus name because He opened eyes to see Him in brief moments during this day that is the day that He made.
 
God be blessed, and may we bless...... in Jesus name, please and thank you, .... Lord thank you that perhaps we are or can be a living stone in the church that you are building....

Just thinking......  if we gain anything, isn't it because of what Jesus did and does?  Aren't we overcomers in Him?  Didn't He triumph over all?  Won't He build His church as He said He would?  Reckon I'm just trying to think on these things....
 
Yes, there will be a falling away and all else that He said would happen will happen in the OT and in the NT... I don't know very much, my wee brain is just think'n on things... and I am thankful for 1 Cor 8:2 too... To God be the Glory....God can gather two (or three) people together in a grocery store.... He did this today, 2 or 3 times .... briefly the love of Jesus just was doing what His love does... Perhaps I went to His Church and didn't even know it, well, so I'm just thinking about how awesomely majestic this day has been because of Christ letting me be in Him and Him in me... so much for my methinks....

[chipped china]

I agree Ginger!!! I can get to wringing my hands over the state of the church and the Body, then I realize I just need to be that open vessel for Him to fill. We need to rest in His love and wisdom, and look for the God things to happen.

[Meema]

Amen and amen! 

 

I believe it’s way past time for Christ’s Remnant to recognize the power of prayer and genuine Christ-like representation in the smallest increments. It’s time to be God’s will in every move we make, every gesture, every word and deed. To be fully armored up with unfailing faith and discernment. To step down and trust that the Holy Spirit is the guide, not us, on duty 24/7. To let go of our own myopic understanding and fleshly needs, deferring instead to His needs. 

 

What grieves God? Do we know? Have we bothered to ask Him? 

 

To respond to the premise, “what is a church to do?” Could it be all we have to do is die to self so that all that remains is an empty vessel completely useful to Christ in whatever way He chooses to use us. Not how we feel we must be used. We don’t have to wait to be useful in some grand noble obvious way, someday.

 

A good word, a cooked meal, an instant response to someone’s need, an encouragement, a hand up, a prayer that no one else ever knows is lifted–these are examples of a sanctified life, a life incorporated into the Body, the real Church. 

 

We cannot kindle when we will 

The fire which in the heart resides, 

The spirit bloweth and is still, 

In mystery our soul abides; 

But tasks in hours of insight willed 

Can be through hours of gloom fulfilled.

 

It’s the smallest things. The hidden, not overt, not grand, not acclaimed by man, daily representations of the true and simple gospel, that define Christ’s true Church. Because in the small things, with the least, is where God prefers to do His greatest work. As the Scriptures say, to confound the wise. 

 

(1 Corinthians 1:27) but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong

 

For Him,

Meema

[Charles Miles]

After reading this thread, I have a need to say a small thing here.  Most, if not all on this board already know what I am about to say, but I do feel that it needs to be stated again.

 

When is a church right? In this question we can also include Bible study groups, prayer meetings, Sunday School, and even the small groups that meet to discuss relationships with the Lord.  How do we know, or how can we tell when these sessions become "something else" and are no longer helpful and becoming harmful to our relationship with the Lord?  We all entered into these groups to study the Word, meet others, and develop a closer relationship with the Lord.....but sometimes just possibly, some of these groups morph into things that are "wrong" for us and can be dangerous.  When this happens, it is usually a very, very subtle, almost microscopic change in course that seems harmless, but over time, the whole focus has changed and we don`t even see it.  Examples would be things like prosperity Christianity(name it and claim it), legalism(some cults), universalism, and even the inclusion of multiple ways to salvation.  I think this is what Ron has been speaking about in his last few posts, although he may correct me here. I have been dealing with a small amount of this stuff here and the root of the problem seems to be that many Christians simply do not know what they are supposed to believe, so some get confused when pressed a bit to explain their Christianity.  Now I am not big on enumerated lists that tell us that we MUST believe #1, #2, #3, etc, but I do think all Christians do need to know how they got to where they are, who they are, and what has been done for them.  We seem to have built "houses on the sand" as far as some of the new(or even old) Christians are concerned, when they don`t know the very basics of the gospel.  One can study and learn many things, but they must first have the basic, firm, concrete gospel from which to start.  As one of the older saints wrote...."we must all come to the cross and understand what happened there, and what was done for us.  But we must not simply sit down right there and stop!  The cross is a door, so we must get there ,and understand the cross....but then go on through the door into this "kingdom of God where we have things made available to us that we didn`t have before we learned about what happened from the cross to the throne".

 

When working with some of these groups, I find the Galatians is a great teaching tool.  Paul laid it out in plain language for some who were beginning to stray down a wrong road in their theology.  I also like being able to us Paul`s words to correct...not my words.  In fact, I don`t even go near the term "correct" to discuss some beliefs, I just say that I find what they believe to be "interesting" and then suggest that we see what the Bible has to say about it.  Paul got pretty mad and even used "street language" to discuss their alternate beliefs. 

 

Well, anyway, that is what I wanted to say today.  Has been a long week here in Miss and I`m pooped!

 

I love you all, but not as much as the Lord loves you,

 

Charlie

 

 

[chipped china]

That's so true Charlie. I was fortunate to find a good Baptist church that laid the foundation for me and I haven't strayed from it for 25 yrs. I also had believers who were willing to spend hours talking with me about scripture. It may not have all sunk in years ago but it still paid off because I love Jesus more than ever.

These topics can get off track and it's good to have elders to mediate. God bless to all, great topic. betsy

[Ginger]

...thank you Betsy for recognizing Charlie and Ron as you have and for posting your thoughtful shares too.  I've thought of Ron as a pastor and Charlie as elder.  Not that others wouldn't qualify as a pastor, elder, or deacon.... mostly this is church for me these days.  I still check in with a person who has been an accountability person for me from the church I attended.... Through the years I have seen church splits and divisions and have not been in any position besides what is referred to as an 'attendee'.   In other words, unless asked to do something, I only showed up for regular church services or a Bible study. Having an accountability person has been very helpful in affirming, referring to some specifics as needed.  I do appreciate elders and thank God for them.  Thank you Ron.  Thank you Charlie.  Thanking God for elders He has supplied, and thank all who have been an elder in Spirit and in Truth.

[Candice]

I can relate to some of what each of you explain and describe here from your personal relationship with Christ and "church".  I believe it is the individual whom the Lord looks at mostly.  That is to say, as far as I need to be concerned in my personal relationship with Him., that's all he expects from me.  I cannot fix the state of the church at-large.  I don't know how to even be a sliver of that!

 

My husband recently decided to return to a church we once attended five years ago.  Simply because he is extremely social and has a few buddies there who care for him and the other church couldn't care less if you exist.  For me, that's not important if I have fellowship with a handful of people who aren't even in the "church" I officially "attend"- real, meaningful fellowship.  See "attend", "go to church", etc. are just terms that, in my weak opinion, are meaningless any more.

 

I personally believe that the "church" is not at all represented as Christ would have it be nor has it been for a couple of thousand years.  China, Burma, Syria - you'll see it there cause it's underground.  I've said that more than my fair share.

 

Funny, this morning, I "submitted" to going to what I call the Purpose-Driven, Seeker Sensitive, Programmed church.  I have to keep my mouth zipped so as to honor my husband's wishes which, for me, takes  the Lord's strength - not mine!  The people are friendly - I'll give them that. The music playing before the service was some form of hip-hop or rap (Christian) that was so loud and unworshipful, I could barely hear the friendly folks speak to me.  I'm not hard of hearing either.  It's just too much bouncing around for me.  During the sermon, people get up, walk around, go to the back, get food, etc.  Distracting. But, then again, is this "church"??  Not to me. 

 

I don't know what "church" is supposed to be because, quite frankly, I don't think I have ever seen it!!!  Ever.  Sorry to be doom and gloom, but I think these pastors need to step up to the plate.  I just want what I see as the true church, which each of you has described in some detail here.  I just don't count on it or  believe it is here right now.

 

In about 40 minutes, my neighbors are coming to our home for bible study (five kids, five adults) on the Jewish Feasts and their current significance (prophetic). This is a small group of us who are wanting to dig into the word!  That's church to me. We have some fellowship, ask questions in the sense of "getting real".   Two of our neighbors came from homes where both dads were pastors. The guy who's leading and teaching is really in the word and serious!  They are really talking about pastors needing to step up to the plate cause teachers will incur a stricter judgment.  I don't know that I have a place in their being prodded to stepping up, but if I could say it and not get into trouble, I'd sound the warning!!  No one listens.  Just know no one really cares, save a few of us

 

I'm rambling tonight, but I hope you get what I'm saying.  This little forum is a church to me.  That's that!!  When the church of America goes underground - then let's talk "church" and what it's supposed to do or be cause right now it's not even a talking point in the good old USA.

 

"Christ in me; the hope of glory"  There just need to be millions who believe that and act on it.

 

Love you all!

Candice

[Ginger]

Hi Candice,  So glad to see and read your post!!!! Have missed you too!!!!  And missing Kevin ... just praying .... Well, here's a delight for this day, reading a post from Candice.  Just was trying to thank God for what is great .... working with Embrace the Cross.... Well, excuse my jumping here there and yon....

 

Candice, you put so much into words that speak to hearts and minds.  Reckon anyone who's dealt with some of the things that drew us together here and cause one another to become a real part of our heart and soul makes this be an 'Online Church'. 

 

We have differing backgrounds have had different learning experiences and all the things that have touched our lives. It's like we come together to care, to try to understand, to pray, to share and to communicate the best we can from our hearts.  Sometimes we are so open and it can feel as thought there is a nakedness to one degree or another.

 

We love one another in varying degrees it seems.  Sometimes I feel in my heart that I've been given a breath of Christ from another person's heart and soul.... For this only God can be given credit.... too deep for my mere words to post...  The Christ in you touches my heart and soul come the closest to summarize. 

 

What if this forum is the only church some folks have?  Regardless of the reasons each person comes here originally it's like we stay because of love and caring.  Our world (individually speaking) may have crumbled or be in some state of dis-ease.  Regardless we can come here and write what is in our heart and know another person will 'hear' and will 'care' to some degree. 

 

Once it was posted that you could go to church and no one cared.... The person who shared this was being honest from their heart to the person who posted ....

 

Well, here we are a few of us having a posting and are gathered together in a way....

 

What is a church to do? 

I don't have a clue what a church is to do.  All I know is sometimes a phone conversation or exchanged emails or posts have at times been more than some folks share when they attend a local church. It takes communicating and sharing beyond a church service.  It can be good to gather with people and sing and hear a sermon or have a Sunday school time.  Then we go home until the next service and sometimes just long for something that is missing. 

 

The faithful ones who keep going to church I used to compare myself unfavorably to.  At least they were faithful and consistent and keep meeting .... then I just could not go to church .... GOD KNOWS.... and was 'graced' to come to this forum.  Giving thanks and do study to show myself approved and listen to audios and watch videos.  We seem to need to come together be it 2 or three because God is at work in each person and just being one solitary person lets me know it's good to come to gather and praise the LORD wherever He places us.  Sometimes I've been blessed to have church so to speak with one other person....

 

Some folks go to Christian 12 step meetings and deal with taking their personal inventories and pray and have a different level of fellowship.

 

What is it that Jesus wants regarding us coming together? 

 

Seems it is coming to the place that we can ask some questions and not be afraid of trouncing on any church. 

 

When we can be real and praise God together even via posting it is something to give thanks for.

When we can share a need and ask for prayer and others pray and share the best they can it's another thing to thank God for.

When we can be just as we are and post and know someone is going to understand (at least in part...) that is even another thing to thank God for.

 

So these are things I've shared here only because I can and that is something that can make me stop in my tracks right this moment and remember the first thought when seeing Candice's post and reading it was: Praise the Lord, Hallelujah woopeee... then I also had some tears come to my eyes...

 

Dear ones, I reckon this old lady comes here and it's being in church at times .... Christians are the church.... Christ is our head and we are His body... do I understand this... Not really and yet in my spirit I believe I do at least in part.

 

Paul wrote much of what we read and we write some and sometimes give a reference to something Paul wrote to us... the Holy Spirit was giving Paul what words to say,  We can write words down and I hope Christ in you and Christ in me have shared.  Each person has the personality that God saw fit to give to them so reckon I'm so glad for each person that posts and that we do have some who are teachers, and who pastor, and are active in a local body of believers and most of all for this moment I'm glad we have a place to come and be and receive and give as we are able.

 

Thank you brothers and sisters who come here .... some post and some don't...

 

Gal 2:20

Col 1:26-27

And in  everything give thanks...

 

I will finally stop putting  words and just ask that Jesus the Christ increase and that I decrease.

 

Bless God.  I pray to bless God and to be a blessing.... Being blessed is breathing and whatever God has given moment by moment for almost 71 years.

 

Sorry if this post is all convoluted; or whatever and it is a lot of 'wording'.

 

Love and Prayers,

Ginger

Edited by Ginger, 04 May 2014 - 09:56 PM.

[chipped china]

Wow, you said it Ginger! Praise God for you sweet sister.