26 replies to this topic

[CHRISTOPHER310]

Look it up.

[Big John]

ok.  I looked it up.  So what. 

[CHRISTOPHER310]

So what? Really?! It's that simple to you? Well, that's great Big John. Enjoy so what simple.

[Speilb]

I don't get it either.  I heard Louie Giglio talk about it but I don't understand the weight people put on it. 

[CHRISTOPHER310]

I’m sorry of this confuses some. When it was presented to me last week, it clicked right off.

The cross used as a Christian symbol came about between the 2nd and 3rd centuries A.D ( most commonly historical believe. ) This Christian symbol that we now use to represent Jesus is also found in the very part of human physical creation from the beginning of creation of humans.

Laminin is a cell adhesion molecule we all have in our bodies that holds us together. It is shape in the form of a cross. The same cross shape we use as a Christian symbol now. How is this possible? How is it that the Laminin is shaped so identical as the Christian cross, yet done so from the beginning of human creation? Accidental? No...

Colossians 1:17 ...” He is before all things, and in him, all things hold together.”

He meaning Jesus and ‘hold together’ meaning ( in a way ) the cross as it is also found in the shape of Laminin which holds all our cells together.

For many, myself included, this is awesome and works to show God and salvation has been built into us from the begin of our human creation.

[Julie Daube]

It blew me away the first time I heard about it.

[Glenn Rogero]

x

[Speilb]

So what? Really?! It's that simple to you? Well, that's great Big John. Enjoy so what simple.

After reading the above I wanted to express agreement with Big John. Also In reading your response to me as well I felt there might have been a condescending tone (though tone is always difficult to access in writing so hopefully I am wrong). I am aware of the cross as a symbol for Christ. I also get the premise of the Giglio understanding. I am aware of Colossians 1:17. However I don't at all believe that it is connected to or prophetic of the discovery of Laminin. I take the verse and section to be literal not an indication of the symbolic (I believe that in Jesus Himself all things literally hold together, rather than in a symbol of Jesus all things hold together). Similarly I don't get excited about the cross on the back of donkeys though I have met people that do.

Laminin has a long stem and three shorter arms. When diagrammed and for convenience they portray it as being at right angles from each other, however in reality this is not how it looks most of the time. The structures could also be viewed as sword-shaped, t-shaped, or even as an upside down cross depending on orientation. Or if the three small arms are pointing in a similar direction (which I understand is more often the case) it could be said to resemble of Tulip (Don't let the Calvinists know) or a three-prong fork.

The great thought for me in Colossians 1:16+17 is that Jesus Himself created and sustains everything. I don't mind at all some people amazed by what they see as symbolic in science but it isn't something I understand in my more concrete views. I also have seen non-believers use such things to dismiss the believer. For me the concepts of such things as the oddly labeled "dark matter" and "dark energy" have more potential for illustrating this passage (and that is of course just one example).

Romans 1:20 also points us in a similar direction as Colossians 1 but in that case as well it seems to be most easily interpreted to relate to the concrete rather than the symbolic.

But for those who do love the symbolic I believe that resources like Hebrew4Christians.com might provide some great reading on symbolic things that in my mind have more Biblical connections.

[CHRISTOPHER310]

Speilb, I wasn't trying to insult anyone or be of an offesive nature in this post. I just was shared something that I liked and wanted to share it with others. Nothing more. If I did anything more than that, I deeply apoligise. Also, thank you for what you said. It makes me feel real stupid about my post and my feelings about my Christian faith. Never would I thought a fellow Christian could make me feel so crappy about myself until I read what you wrote. I will think very long and hard before I should share my faith again. I do not want to be spreading the worng stupid stuff. I'm out of here at this time.

[Big John]

I just came back to this.  I first apologize if I sounded flippant.  Not my intent.  I did a quick search and honestly found nothing that made a connection, so I was actually asking what it was about.  After reading the comments, it did seem to prod something that I heard about this some years ago.  And I remembered a number of people I knew think that it was significant at that time.  I personally did not.  I agree with Speilb that I have never been one to disparage or discourage anyone who wants to see something mystical in a variety of things.  I just didn't get any inspiration from it at the time and still don't.  I am sorry but I don't see it.  That doesn't mean its not so.  I certainly don't intend to discourage anyone seeking out God where they can find Him.

[Speilb]

Speilb, I wasn't trying to insult anyone or be of an offesive nature in this post. I just was shared something that I liked and wanted to share it with others. Nothing more. If I did anything more than that, I deeply apoligise. Also, thank you for what you said. It makes me feel real stupid about my post and my feelings about my Christian faith. Never would I thought a fellow Christian could make me feel so crappy about myself until I read what you wrote. I will think very long and hard before I should share my faith again. I do not want to be spreading the worng stupid stuff. I'm out of here at this time.

 

Thank you for clarifying that you were not meaning to be offensive.  I have heard that 80% of communication is non-verbal so in writing we miss out on seeing expression and hearing volume and tone.  Of course this works both ways, and I hope you take my tone as not containing any barbs or insults. 

 

As for feeling stupid that was not at all my intention.  I think one of the values of this forum is to express and hear from different perspectives and in the end come out more well rounded.  Sorry my post made you feel bad about yourself.  As you may know already I am very Truth orientated and in a focus on Truth offense can often follow. 

 

You should not give up on sharing your faith.  There is much you know of God and of the Gospel and that is well worth sharing.  You also have a passion for God and like me, for the Truth of God.  I love what Paul said to the Corinthians "I didn't come to you with wise or persuasive words, but with demonstrations of the Spirit's power".  So if you are not able to make a convincing case on Laminin I don't think that has hurt your evangelism in the least.  Paul was an expert debater, but he purposefully left it behind in his evangelism to Corinth. 

 

I am not a David or a Peter I am more cautious then they (and there is a place for people like me in the Kingdom).  They both were very similar in a lot of ways.  They were both beloved of God.  They were both sincere.  They were both passionate.  They both held positions of headship.  Both were passionately and sincerely right much of the time but also not rarely passionately and sincerely wrong.  Obviously, God didn't object to building a royal line out of David and a great Spiritual lineage out of Peter.  Both of them also were like you, in being able to turn on a dime.  Peter told Jesus there was no way he was going to wash his feet.  When Jesus, explained it to Peter, Peter wanted his whole body washed.  Evidently, such people find favor with God and can be mightily used of God.  In my earlier post I wanted to challenge you and I am glad it did (though I was said to hear it hurt you).  Also your humility in abandoning a stance is admirable and makes you more useful to God (I am saying this in a general sense not particularly to this situation).  I pray you find encouragement in this post. 

 

May God bless you Christopher,

James

[chipped china]

This forum is helping me understand the "be of one mind" better. The Lord has given me a small revelation on this matter. I use to think it meant we all believed the same things and when it comes to fundamentals this is true. But I think Jesus was talking about caring for one another too. We should be of one mind in the essence of uplifting, edifying and rebuking one another. And in doing so we need to have the mind of Christ. He is patient and kind, He looks for the good and doesn't revile in the error.  There is no pride involved because He only wants His truth known. There is no condemnation because we are already forgiven.

 

As for me, I enjoy the little details of creation. Jesus give us those things to give us awe.  I think Christopher knew where to place the importance of laminin,  he was just sharing something he enjoyed. Maybe we all needed to understand it a little better but we weren't worshipping a cross on a donkey's back for pete's sake. I also like the way Christopher point blank tells you how he feels so it can be dealt with, but come on..... you can't leave the Body like you aren't attached to living organism. We have to practice being of one mind with Christ as the Head. Besides, your value come from Jesus not from me, James, or Big John. Let's keep trying to be how He wills us.

[Speilb]

"Worshiping a donkey's back" is not something that was discussed or suggested by anyone.  If we want to be of "one mind" we must avoid such things as derailing a conversation or debate by misunderstanding or radicalizing someone's view.  Also in saying "but come on..... you can't leave the Body like you aren't attached to living organism" we are again challenging a point that no-body made. I believe going to such ideological extremes blurs the issue. 

 

I presented a different view on an issue and brought points to support my view.  I believe I did so with respect but if disagree you can point this out to me. 

 

I believe we can work towards possessing the mind of Christ by really trying to understand what others are saying and to not exaggerating other's points.  Secondly by challenging each other on understandings of scriptures used and then bring other scriptures to support differing points.  If we do this I believe we will move towards being of one mind and possessing the Mind of Christ that is revealed in the Scriptures. 

[chipped china]

James wrote "Similarly I don't get excited about the cross on the back of donkeys though I have met people that do." This is what you wrote in your first post. I don't think I exaggerated anything, it was just what it was.

Christopher said he was " out of here" and I was responding to him leaving. I believe he's part of the Body and a valuable part. I don't want him to go, I was responding to him not you. I didn't derail the conversation, I was following it.

James, I enjoyed what your added with the laminin discussion. You add a lot to this forum with your knowledge I was addressing the emotional side because this is not the first time someone has left because feelings got hurt. I'm trying to help us be less sensitive about things that are said because we trust each other to have the love of Christ. You too were unsure whether Christopher was being offensive with you. Essentially, I don't care about any of that.. what I care about is that people trust our Lord to take the chance to care for one another as He cares for us.

[Speilb]

Ok, I was confused on the cannot leave the body thing but in reading it again it made sense to me.  I shouldn't have commented on something I didn't understand.  I am sorry for my misunderstanding. 

 

As for the issue of "Worshiping a Donkey's back" I maintain my position that I didn't say or suggest that.  I did say as you quoted "Similarly I don't get excited about the cross on the back of donkeys though I have met people that do" which I regard as being quite different.  I had a friend who shared with me about how amazing he thought it was that a donkey carried Mary (and therefore also Jesus) to Bethlehem and brought Jesus into Jerusalem in the triumphal entry.   For him the cross on the back of a donkey was exciting.  For me it was just something that was kind of cool but not really exciting.  Is there something to it?  I don't know; maybe.  There are many other things that get me excited that don't excite others.

  

I see a big difference between worshiping and being excited.  Our electric tea kettle broke so I will sending for a new one (after I conclude my extensive research on which best at a good price).  I will be excited when it comes.  But I don't anticipate a struggle in keeping from worshiping my tea kettle. 

[chipped china]

Well, I too apologize for misunderstanding the donkey comment. I've never heard the part about Jesus and Mary both riding. I thought you were talking about someone seeing a pattern of the cross on a donkey's back and thinking it was a miracle, like seeing Jesus in a piece of toast. I will ask more questions from now on. God Bless Betsy

[Kevin Blankenship]

Oh me. Reminds me of being at one of the local churches. Someone expresses a differing view and the other person is "out of here".  I, too, have been "out of here" dozens of times for one reason or t'other. It is very revealing.  Just WAITING for someone to cross us the wrong way so that we can leave and find "that perfect group where everyone agrees with me".

   I wonder if Peter felt that way when Paul chewed that hind end out for being a hypocrite concerning eating with Gentiles.

  Of course, Paul got upset with Mark and refused to carry him along on the next missionary journey. Ya know, I am SO GLAD that the Bible includes these little incidences of BEING HUMAN.  I might change my forum name to "out 'o here" merely because I have thought to myself: "How dare they have differing veiws!!! I am SO out o' here!!!!!!"   But my "out of here" status usually blows over before the sun goes down. I am beginning to have a history with several here.  Loving to read their posts and being edified by them.  (If anyone just thought: He's talking about my posts!.......seek help for pride issues......LOL)  that was tongue in cheek. Please...!!!! Don't let it cause anyone to go "out of here".  We need your views. We WANT your views. We want YOU.

[chipped china]

Well yes, now that you mention it, that thought did run through my brain. lol. That was pretty funny Kevin. Seriously, I pray the Lord gives us His patient and forgiving heart.

[noah22x]

May I interject that brother Christopher (I gather from a previous post from him) is in a hard place right now, a place that probably keeps him very close to discouragement and dispair. Maybe now is not the optimal time to fine tune his Christiandom, but simply see a man eager to be in awe of God. Christ Himself put an emphasis on the orientation of the heart alongside that of mans' attempts to live a law they were incapable of applying consistently, whether or not they could articulate it. Besides, the Bible is filled from cover to cover with people inspired by things that spoke to them as individuals, while everyone else was unimpressed, unaware, or just didn't care. Pick a page, any page.

 

So, Christopher, I marvel with you. Yes, Christ is evident in Laminin. Glory to God! And to all here, seeking others, to share our experiences of learning, as well as teaching about our most precious relationship between Infinite and Almighty God, and our finite and disintegrating person; Glory to God for you.

 

Be careful with each other.

 

We also must trust that a rebuke is not a slight.

However, ladies and gentlemen, we are humans here, and that trust must be earned.

 

in Christ,

Noah

[Kevin Blankenship]

Yeah. my mother is dying right before my eyes with Alzheimer's dementia. I am her ONLY full time caregiver and her second son. Yet she rarely recognizes me. Many of us are in hard places.