I've stayed away from this discussion because some of it has seemed a little emotional for some but I have got to say a little something. It's one thing to be disciplined for wrong doing but God is not just interested in correcting us for the "wrong" we do. So often it is simply to discipline our human nature. To push us to become greater than our humanity. Whether that humanity is "doing" anything wrong or just being human. Even when most of the overt sins of attitude and lack of cooperation and submission and pride, etc seem to be in our past, we are still in this corrupt flesh that is inherently opposed to God and His ways. And that flesh can only be brought into submission by so many things. The Word can. Prayer can. But so often our flesh needs abuse. Hey, Paul had the crap beat out of him over and over again. Was all of that over disobedience? Don't think so. Thats all.
John,
Interesting you bring this up, because I have been too busy and/or not sure whether to post more on this, but I had this same thought yesterday. Anyway, it seems this thread has gone around in a circle a bit, kind of like Meema said. Kenny's original thoughts that obedience brings blessing and that chastisement is a good thing, are both true. But I think part of the issue with this discussion is that there are different understandings of what is actually being said. Much of the discussion took a turn from obedience to chastisment and even an unbiblical sense of punishment and condemnation. Kind of all over the map as it has progressed. Still, some great points all around. Folks, John's point here is that God loves us so much, that His discipline is not always, or only for sin in our lives, it is out of love and for relationship. In the proper sense, if it can be received, it should comfort us. I also think some of the misunderstanding goes back to the original point about obedience. What is the obedience that God is looking for? I believe it is primarily a trust-based submission to Himself, not a creed or a set of doctrines. For those of us who are prone to over-think everything or take every person's admonition as gospel, keep in mind that God is not looking for, or expecting us, to perfect ourselves. He already knows our flaws and isn't looking for perfection in our flesh (meaning our ability or strength). He is wanting our trust whereby we can follow Him. He has to do the work. As we are led of the Spirit and follow the path outlined for us, this is obedience. Here is another key; you and I don't even have to know where the path leads. In fact, not knowing is part of the path God wants to take us on, so we do not rely on flesh. It takes faith to follow Him in the dark, but sometimes that is where He leads. So if in trust and with lack of understanding of what He is up to, you and I are willing to go, that is obedience. He is pleased with that, because it brings the growth and the fruit He desires for us. So I don't see obedience mainly as about correction for sin, although that can be necessary too, at times. It's about trusting Him enough to submit to Him and His will for us, even when we don't know where it leads. It's the potter's wheel thing again. Just trying to say that the lion''s share of obedience is what Big John is pointing out; it's not a question of sin, condemnation, guilt etc. Rather, it is God causing us to have His thoughts, to grow and bear fruit. Now that is a good thing! Let's everbody be happy now! God is jealous over us who love him, and He is merciful.
Let us also remember that Kenny was simply pointing out his experience where God, in love, drew him back. All descriptions of a person's experience are going to have a sense of subjectivity to others, and only Kenny can know if the "blessings" he sensed were slipping away, was in fact the Lord's discipline over him. Either way, he believed himself to be away from God and he repented. Haven't we all had some similar experience where that was a fact and we were not simply condemning ourselves? I have sensed God's disapproval a couple of times and when I did, I knew it wasn't my flesh saying how "bad I was;" my flesh was liking the bad. When it is the Father, there is no condemnation in the discipline, just love, restoration, mercy and grace. We do however, still have to do our part, and that is say, "yes Lord. And thank you Father for being merciful to me."
Which brings up the thought of the "other thing." False guilt, condemnation, etc. It can be a major struggle as some have testified. We long for perfection and we were made for it, but cannot attain it without the blood of Christ. Yet, the carnal mind still strives for it, but if we walk this way, the freedom God truly provded is not understood and not applied. It can take years to begin to walk in this freedom because our mind is at war with us, and with God. When Paul said the carnal mind is an enemy of God In Romans, he was not referring to sin only, or mainly; he was speaking of the "my thoughts are not your thoughts" idea. We are carnal, God is spiritual and the two "thought systems" are at odds. So we can have thoughts that are not "sinful" as we think of that, but they are still at war with God. Keep in mind that God knows us and He is not condemning us for this; He is at work by His Spirit to change us. This is the process that Candice said involves our faith. Why? Because in some given area, we do not think like God and He is challenging us to trust Him and to begin to take on His thoughts in that area. How about how we see ourselves, for example? That's just one; the applications could be endless. Here is a key thing I think is necessary if we want to hear God's thoughts. We must quiet our minds and stop listening to everyone elses voice, so we will start to hear God's. He does want a relationship with each of us you know, and not by proxy. You'll begin to discern Him and know what He wants. I would encourage each of us to relax and let God take the lead. We don't have to try so hard to be spiritual; actually, that just gets in the way because it is anxiousness, the opposite of peace, trust and rest.
And if you haven't figured out I had some time and coffee tonight, one last thought. Some things in life, bad stuff, bad outcomes, etc. just happen. It is a fallen world. Other times, some bad things happen to some people because for whatever reasons, they lack common human knowledge, wisdom or experience, and they keep making the same wrong assumptions over and over. These cases can be tough, because influences in our lives, good and bad, can become deeply ingrained. They are not excuses for poor living, but still can be very real. In many cases then, what we can as Christians perceive as God's punishment, judgement or whatever, are oftentimes just the result of poor human choices based on the above lack of human understanding; God does not have anything to do with some of these negative outcomes. They are simply a human shortcoming. But He does care about the person for sure. In many cases then, the true spiritual viewpoint is to see things for what they really are, and not try to spiritualize everything. Because God does not spiritualize every problem either. This too, will bring healing, but it can be difficult, because then we see it is us that needs the healing in some area we lack on a human level. Example: we are broke because we are terrible with our finances but "we don't want to hear it." What is the fix? It's a change in us, but it also has a very practical aspect that cannot be overlooked or spiritualized.