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Obedience brings blessings


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#41 Julie Daube

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 05:07 PM

Does anyone disagree with the premise . . .

 

Premise

A. God chastises

B. Therefore it naturally follows that God has means which He uses or employees for chastising.

 

 

No, Kenny, I do not disagree with that premise. But I have to agree with Candice: He will not keep throwing up our disobedience in our faces. Once we know we have been chastised and we have repented, I'm not sure it's necessary (or helpful) to keep dwelling on it.

 

You asked Charlie, "Can you point me to anyone in this thread who is pointing out things in the life of another person?" I don't think anyone would say that someone in this thread is pointing out things in the life of another person. I think what some people have said is that there is a need to be careful when discussing this particular topic because of the complexities and sensitivities involved. For instance, a few years ago a friend at church heard that my husband and I were going through some financial challenges. He gave us a book containing testimonies of people whose financial problems immediately disappeared when they started giving sacrificially. The implication was that my husband and I were suffering financial hardship because we weren't giving sacrificially. This person never said this outright, but by pointing to these experiences of other believers, in our mind he was implying that was the case. We love this brother in the Lord and we realize he would never knowingly cause us  pain. Nonetheless, we felt accused. I think maybe this is just a very sensitive subject. When someone shares their own experience of having been disciplined and then asks others to weigh in on this topic, it may bring up some painful experiences.   

 

Along with Charlie I say: Praise be to God for His grace and lovingkindness! Amen!


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#42 Charles Miles

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 06:30 PM

Kenny,

 I think we can all see just how explosive any/most discussions about God`s chastisement, correction, or punishment can be.  Certainly I count you as a brother in Christ and I assume that all this thread is done in love, as it should be.  When we start to enumerate things that God might use for correction, many people are going to say.."oh, yeah, I know someone who is going through that sort of thing now, so they must be under the chastisement of God"... and that is not right.  Israel(the Northern kingdom) was taken by Syria because they were being punished by God for not obeying God`s law and the same thing happened later to the Southern kingdom but it was done by Babylon......now, I do not think we can extrapolate these things to the Crimea/Russia mess of today.  But can we see how some people might say it is the same situation?  I don`t know if it is or not, but there is a danger in saying >>"it is God`s will".  Several of the crusades used this cry to kill and rape, saying that their battles were chastisement of the muslims by God.    To get into making lists of possible actions God can/has taken to chastise/correct people, just serves no useful purpose for me and I certainly would not want anyone using a list that I would make to accuse another of being under God`s disfavor.  God is eternal, immutable, omniscient, omnipotent, sovereign, omnipresent, and incomprehensible, so He can/will/does use anything/everything to accomplish His will.  He made everything that has ever been made and all these things are available for Him.

 

In my life, God`s correction has used many, many things, and these things differ with the season of my life. Some of the correction has been gentle and sweet, and some of it has been more direct, but whichever it was....at that particular time it was what was needed to get the attention of my heart.  You know, God has never failed to get my undivided attention when He wants it and I pray that from now on, all that is needed is a gentle, calm, sweet word from Holy Spirit in my ear.

 

Lord please help me keep our relationship so close that a whisper is all that is needed.  Kenny, please know that I do love you as a brother and I can only discuss this topic with love.  May God bless you, a seeker of the truth and His eternal love.

 

Charlie


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#43 Big John

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 08:57 PM

I've stayed away from this discussion because some of it has seemed a little emotional for some but I have got to say a little something.  It's one thing to be disciplined for wrong doing but God is not just interested in correcting us for the "wrong" we do.  So often it is simply to discipline our human nature.  To push us to become greater than our humanity.  Whether that humanity is "doing" anything wrong or just being human.  Even when most of the overt sins of attitude and lack of cooperation and submission and pride, etc seem to be in our past, we are still in this corrupt flesh that is inherently opposed to God and His ways.  And that flesh can only be brought into submission by so many things.  The Word can.  Prayer can.  But so often our flesh needs abuse.  Hey, Paul had the crap beat out of him over and over again.  Was all of that over disobedience?  Don't think so.  Thats all.


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#44 ADVRider

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 10:48 PM

I've stayed away from this discussion because some of it has seemed a little emotional for some but I have got to say a little something.  It's one thing to be disciplined for wrong doing but God is not just interested in correcting us for the "wrong" we do.  So often it is simply to discipline our human nature.  To push us to become greater than our humanity.  Whether that humanity is "doing" anything wrong or just being human.  Even when most of the overt sins of attitude and lack of cooperation and submission and pride, etc seem to be in our past, we are still in this corrupt flesh that is inherently opposed to God and His ways.  And that flesh can only be brought into submission by so many things.  The Word can.  Prayer can.  But so often our flesh needs abuse.  Hey, Paul had the crap beat out of him over and over again.  Was all of that over disobedience?  Don't think so.  Thats all.

John,

 

Interesting you bring this up, because I have been too busy and/or not sure whether to post more on this, but I had this same thought yesterday. Anyway, it seems this thread has gone around in a circle a bit, kind of like Meema said. Kenny's original thoughts that obedience brings blessing and that chastisement is a good thing, are both true. But I think part of the issue with this discussion is that there are different understandings of what is actually being said. Much of the discussion took a turn from obedience to chastisment and even an unbiblical sense of punishment and condemnation. Kind of all over the map as it has progressed. Still, some great points all around. Folks, John's point here is that God loves us so much, that His discipline is not always, or only for sin in our lives, it is out of love and for relationship. In the proper sense, if it can be received, it should comfort us. I also think some of the misunderstanding goes back to the original point about obedience. What is the obedience that God is looking for? I believe it is primarily a trust-based submission to Himself, not a creed or a set of doctrines. For those of us who are prone to over-think everything or take every person's admonition as gospel, keep in mind that God is not looking for, or expecting us, to perfect ourselves. He already knows our flaws and isn't looking for perfection in our flesh (meaning our ability or strength). He is wanting our trust whereby we can follow Him. He has to do the work. As we are led of the Spirit and follow the path outlined for us, this is obedience. Here is another key; you and I don't even have to know where the path leads. In fact, not knowing is part of the path God wants to take us on, so we do not rely on flesh. It takes faith to follow Him in the dark, but sometimes that is where He leads. So if in trust and with lack of understanding of what He is up to, you and I are willing to go, that is obedience. He is pleased with that, because it brings the growth and the fruit He desires for us. So I don't see obedience mainly as about correction for sin, although that can be necessary too, at times. It's about trusting Him enough to submit to Him and His will for us, even when we don't know where it leads. It's the potter's wheel thing again. Just trying to say that the lion''s share of obedience is what Big John is pointing out; it's not a question of sin, condemnation, guilt etc. Rather, it is God causing us to have His thoughts, to grow and bear fruit. Now that is a good thing! Let's everbody be happy now! :D God is jealous over us who love him, and He is merciful.

 

Let us also remember that Kenny was simply pointing out his experience where God, in love, drew him back. All descriptions of a person's experience are going to have a sense of subjectivity to others, and only Kenny can know if the "blessings" he sensed were slipping away, was in fact the Lord's discipline over him. Either way, he believed himself to be away from God and he repented. Haven't we all had some similar experience where that was a fact and we were not simply condemning ourselves? I have sensed God's disapproval a couple of times and when I did, I knew it wasn't my flesh saying how "bad I was;"  my flesh was liking the bad. When it is the Father, there is no condemnation in the discipline, just love, restoration, mercy and grace. We do however, still have to do our part, and that is say, "yes Lord. And thank you Father for being merciful to me."

 

Which brings up the thought of the "other thing." False guilt, condemnation, etc. It can be a major struggle as some have testified. We long for perfection and we were made for it, but cannot attain it without the blood of Christ. Yet, the carnal mind still strives for it, but if we walk this way, the freedom God truly provded is not understood and not applied. It can take years to begin to walk in this freedom because our mind is at war with us, and with God. When Paul said the carnal mind is an enemy of God In Romans, he was not referring to sin only, or mainly; he was speaking of the "my thoughts are not your thoughts" idea. We are carnal, God is spiritual and the two "thought systems" are at odds. So we can have thoughts that are not "sinful" as we think of that, but they are still at war with God. Keep in mind that God knows us and He is not condemning us for this; He is at work by His Spirit to change us. This is the process that Candice said involves our faith. Why? Because in some given area, we do not think like God and He is challenging us to trust Him and to begin to take on His thoughts in that area. How about how we see ourselves, for example? That's just one; the applications could be endless. Here is a key thing I think is necessary if we want to hear God's thoughts. We must quiet our minds and stop listening to everyone elses voice, so we will start to hear God's. He does want a relationship with each of us you know, and not by proxy. You'll begin to discern Him and know what He wants. I would encourage each of us to relax and let God take the lead. We don't have to try so hard to be spiritual; actually, that just gets in the way because it is anxiousness, the opposite of peace, trust and rest.

 

And if you haven't figured out I had some time and coffee tonight, one last thought. Some things in life, bad stuff, bad outcomes, etc. just happen. It is a fallen world. Other times, some bad things happen to some people because for whatever reasons, they lack common human knowledge, wisdom or experience, and they keep making the same wrong assumptions over and over. These cases can be tough, because influences in our lives, good and bad, can become deeply ingrained. They are not excuses for poor living, but still can be very real. In many cases then, what we can as Christians perceive as God's punishment, judgement or whatever, are oftentimes just the result of poor human choices based on the above lack of human understanding; God does not have anything to do with some of these negative outcomes. They are simply a human shortcoming. But He does care about the person for sure. In many cases then, the true spiritual viewpoint is to see things for what they really are, and not try to spiritualize everything. Because God does not spiritualize every problem either. This too, will bring healing, but it can be difficult, because then we see it is us that needs the healing in some area we lack on a human level. Example: we are broke because we are terrible with our finances but "we don't want to hear it." What is the fix? It's a change in us, but it also has a very practical aspect that cannot be overlooked or spiritualized.


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#45 chipped china

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 02:32 AM

Even though there may have been a little tension with this discussion, it's what I call the deeper life. I learned a lot. Thank you Jesus for making Yourself more clearly known through the sheep.


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#46 Kenny

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 04:42 AM

I get the sense that some people don't think this is a topic that should be discussed. They say that it could make someone feel guilty for something they may have done. Personally I have to totally disagree with those who think that way.

The fact of the matter is that Scripture states that God chastens those whom He loves. Heb 12:5-11

So if a person is being chasitsed, and they begin to wonder if they are being chastened for something they have done. In order to determine and answer whether our own actions or disobedience may be the reason we are being chastised we have been given a conscience by God which either accuses us or excuses us. Rom 2:15. If our conscience accuses us, then we should be listening to how God is speaking to our conscience. If our conscience excuses us then the troubles we are facing are not directly related to anything we have done. But when our conscience accuses us then we need to listen to our conscience because God uses our conscience to speak to us. The Bible speaks of individuals whose conscience has been seared. Such people have silenced the voice of God speaking to their conscience.

In my opinion we need to listen to how God is speaking to our conscience, and not try to silence it.

I am also convicted that this topic is of such great importance to the practical outworking of our faith that we should not shy away from discussion of it.

Blessings

#47 Meema

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:27 AM

Well, I’m old and not as sharp as I used to be but three pages in it looks like a discussion to me and to a depth that many have been blessed and edified for it. But it is clear for me that you are not receiving from this discussion what you desired. I cannot find a single rebuttal to your premise. Not one. So, the problem is not the premise, that God chastises His own. The problem is trying to delineate how He does it, which seems to be your goal. But why? Where is the profit in making a list of examples of chastisement as though the list could possibly be definitive, decisive or useful? Not to put too fine a point on it but this is the pitted road to legalism.

 

There must be something else here, beyond your wanting a yes or no answer to the premise and a list of examples and I pray that God guides you to a resolution. 

 

I, for one, have been greatly blessed by this ‘deeper life’ discussion so I appreciate that you began it, Kenny. We can never measure nor count the infinite ways God can make amazing things happen, deeper knowledge shared and gained in ways we cannot fully define.

 

 I cannot praise Him enough!

 

For Him,

Meema


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#48 Kenny

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 05:54 AM

Meema

 

The only thing I desire from this discussion is for people to realize that this is a topic that should be discussed simply because there are practical out workings of our faith which come into play. I also desire that people not try to silence this discussion simply because it may not be their cup of tea. I believe we can all learn and grow through discussion of this topic which is truly a Biblical topic. I grant you that some of the implications of such a topic may be too hard for some to stomach or consider. Yet even those who dislike this topic have the option of opting out of this discussion or to simply go to other threads which are more their cup of tea. 

Secondly, I am not looking for a list of ways in which God chastens us. I simply ask that we recognize the fact that God's chastening of those whom He loves is supported throughout Scripture, and since it's supported throughout Scripture then to admit and acknowledge that He has means to administer chastening to those whom He loves as a measure of correction in those whom He loves. As my last post indicated, God has given each of us a conscience which He speaks to us, and by use of it, He accuses us or excuses us. Therefore even guilt is one of God's ways of accusing our conscience. Therefore if we feel guilty, it may well be God speaking to our conscience accusing us in order to lead us to repentance which is a corrective measure and eventually ends up as a blessing although it may not initially seemed as it were. If we ignore God's voice speaking to our conscience, it may become necessary for God's chastening process to begin in order to bring about corrective measures.

 

Thank you for your encouraging words, in which you stated:

 

"I, for one, have been greatly blessed by this ‘deeper life’ discussion so I appreciate that you began it, Kenny. We can never measure nor count the infinite ways God can make amazing things happen, deeper knowledge shared and gained in ways we cannot fully define."

 

Amen and blessings

Got to go and get ready for worship service

Kenny



#49 Charles Miles

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 06:20 AM

Kenny,

 

Just to let you know what I know about your statement,  yes, I do know that God chastises His children.  This is noted in the Bible from Genesis through Revelations and all the ways it is done are myriad.  I also believe that if we find ourselves NOT being corrected by God, we need to stop dead in our tracks and check out our relationship with the Father. The Bible, being the story of God`s relationship to man, and in particular, to His people, shows that God loves us enough to care that we get it right.  He makes sure that we have the information that we need to carry on in this fallen world.  He even came down here an showed us EXACTLY how he wanted it done. Yes, God chastises His own, then loves us, then teaches us, then lives within us in a way that should make us understand His ways(as much as we are able).  When we don`t get it right(as we often do), He is the loving Father that will correct us again....but He never stops loving us.

 

Praise God for who He is,

 

Charlie


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#50 Kenny

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 06:58 AM

Charles

If you read my replies in this thread you will find that throughout them I have been saying the same thing using different phrases.

Blessings

#51 ADVRider

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 08:18 AM

I get the sense that some people don't think this is a topic that should be discussed. They say that it could make someone feel guilty for something they may have done. Personally I have to totally disagree with those who think that way.

The fact of the matter is that Scripture states that God chastens those whom He loves. Heb 12:5-11

Kenny,

 

Can I make a suggestion? You started off with "Obedience brings blessings." I don't think anyone has disagreed, in principle or in chapter and verse, with your follow-up conclusion that God also chastises when we do not obey, but why not also equally speak of the blessings of obedience and not just the loss of them? I think there could be so much more to say here. Yes, chastisement is an uncomfortable subject for many people. And you know why? Because many of them have experienced so much cr@p in this life that they are pretty broken as we speak. On top of that, because they are still struggling to understand the love and grace of God, they beat themselves up about every other half hour and don't really feel like handing someone else the whip; they are doing a pretty thorough job themselves. So yeah, it can be an excruciating concept to grasp for one who is not able to "take the easy yoke." All I am saying is maybe we focus on some fruit of true obedience; that is what the broken need to hear.


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#52 Big John

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 09:48 AM

Just a little more expansion on some of this.  I will say that I agree with the initial premise that obedience does indeed bring blessing.  But the blessing may be hard to perceive with our carnal eyes.  I have, for many years, felt that if I weren't aware of the correcting hand of God in my life, that I would, in fact, feel like I might be in trouble.  Many, many of the, so called saints and fathers of christianity suffered from so many abuses and deprivations that looking at their lives from the outside might lead one to conclude that they were in sin.  But if you read the writings they left behind, so many of us are so blessed by the lessons they have learned and revelations and growth in understanding that they experienced.  They had what they had because of their sufferings.  So were they obedient and blessed?  I say yes.  But most christians only perceive the suffering and are not willing to allow the blessing to flow out of that suffering.

 

Hey!  I'm not casting aspersions here.  I look at the fruits my life has borne and I consider it pretty pathetic, somrtimes.  Hopefully y'all are getting drift.  I'm not gonna keep at this as there is way to much to say.  Just going to leave 2 of my favorite life scriptures.  To me, you can live your life by them.

 

Proverbs 16:32   He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.

 

Revelation 3:19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 

 

Just a couple quick thoughts on these scriptures.  Ruling ones spirit speaks of self control.  And I believe that for us it is speaking of control of the flesh.  We cannot truly control the flesh except simply submitting to the spirit and allowing the spirit to control our flesh.  Much more here but on to revelation.  God tells us thruout the Word that He loves us.  But we are human and we put our ideas about love into His Word love.  Not sure our idea of love is the same as His.  God is saying in this scripture that if He loves you He will rebuke and chasten us.  He doesn't say He'll be nice or codle us.  I think we infer that.  He is not wanting to be our Santa Claus after all.  So what is His message to us?  If He loves us, we get woopins and when that happens there is but one appropriate and acceptable response.  Be Zealous therefore and Repent!!!  WooHoo!!  Thats what He calls a partay!!!!  OK nuff of that too.

 

Big John


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#53 chipped china

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 04:17 PM

This discussion doesn't bother me, but there is one nagging thing that does. I say this in love and without condemnation because we all fall short of the glory of God. Our thoughts are not His thoughts. I'm only speaking for myself but Kenny, sometimes I feel like you want to be a leader/teacher and it comes across as stiff necked. Like you wouldn't wash my feet, but you'd certainly tell me how to do it. There is a certain amount of arrogance and demanding in your posts that make me want to say hey, if you want to lead us then make yourself transparent and teach from the spirit, seek the whole counsel of God. Your one of those people who wants to contribute but doesn't want to participate. That said, just to help you see how I see you, my love for you is no different. You are my brother in Christ and the deeper life requires we try to speak truth as we see it. I am no better than you or anyone else here. I'm just an old sinner redeemed by the blood of Christ. 

 

Yes, in agreement with everything that's been said about God chastising us. The thing is: when I believed in the blood of Jesus and believed that I went to the cross with Him and was made a new person, I was set free. I don't have to mourn over my sins anymore. I agree, apologize, what ever is called for because I desire to always be in Christ. Do you realize you're position in Him? It's the most beautiful gift ever received. I crave more of Him, His love and correction is perfect like nothing I've ever experienced before and I had loving parents. When you have laid at the feet of Christ and see how He picks you up and sets your path straight back to Him, you should come running. If you don't then you don't know Him.

 

I could sit around and feel bad about all the things I should change about myself, I don't have too, Christ will change the things He wants and the rest is just the old man. The key is staying in Him, worshipping, praising, with thankfulness all His goodness and wisdom. We are all one in Him.


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#54 Kenny

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 07:11 PM

I forgot to mention, I am a controversial person and often bring up some topics which people often find to be a hard pill to swallow. Obviously this topic has touched a few nerves and I can't say I am sorry for it. I believe we need to be made uncomfortable at times. It's great to hear sweet comfortable things, yet when hearers only hear and prefer the candy coated verses of Scripture and ignore the hard sayings of Scripture then we end up with half-truths, and someone once said that half-truths aren't really truth at all. Another person once said; "be careful of half-truths, you may have the wrong half."

 

I began this thread because it's a topic I am really passionate about. I'm saddened by the fact that my fellow believers don't appear to be nearly as passionate about this topic as I have become over the years.

 

Since I am creating quite a stir and controversy in this forum, this will be my final post in this forum. But before I go, I would like to take a moment to revisit a comment made in an earlier post which I found lacked Biblical support. Allow me to now to post the comment I am referring to.

 

Julie stated:

"Scripture states that obedience brings blessings and disobedience brings curses." While this was definitely true for those under the Old Covenant, I think we need to be very careful about making such statements as believers under the New Covenant. Jesus took on the curse for us when He died on the cross. Therefore, those who believe in Him are no longer under a curse, and we will not be cursed if we fail to obey.”

 

I find Julie's statement to be in conflict with what I find in Scripture, especially in the follow text of Scripture.

 

Warnings From Israel’s History

1For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”a8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.9We should not test Christ,b as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! - 1 Cor. 10:1-12

 

You see my brothers and sisters, the things that happened to those in the Old Testament are set forth for New Testament Christians as warnings to keep us from following their example and likewise finding the same displeasure with God which they did. 

 

Let us heed the Scriptural warning

 

Good-bye to all

Shalom



#55 Candice

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 07:32 PM

Kenny,
That's sad. This makes me believe that there's no grace given or received. There is no place interacting with believers that will be in 100% agreement short of eternity

#56 chipped china

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 09:10 PM

Kenny,

I was really hoping you would see the love Jesus has for you through me. I cared enough to say what I see as truth. Jesus doesn't want us to be lukewarm and merely agree with everything as to not rock the boat.  A nerve has been struck in you and now you are leaving, that's exactly opposite of what you say we should do. You can't be a teacher unless you are willing to learn.  I have a lot to learn and I'm willing to face whatever the Lord wants me to see, are you? Don't let Satan win, stay and seek the deeper life with us, this is where the rubber meets the road. I just know Jesus's disciples had to work through things like this. In Christ's love, betsy



#57 Meema

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 04:22 AM

I began this thread because it's a topic I am really passionate about. I'm saddened by the fact that my fellow believers don't appear to be nearly as passionate about this topic as I have become over the years.

 

I’m sorry this old lady is confused. Something is missing. 

 

You choose to leave because the participants are not as passionate about the topic? What topic are you referring to? I don’t think the topic you really want to discuss has been presented.

 

There is something else, something unrevealed under all of this.  It isn’t the controversy, certainly not lack of participation in the discussion. You asked for opinion, you were given what I found to be heartfelt, inspired, even passionate response. You presented the premise, multiple times, that God chastens, asked for yes or no answer. No one disagreed. The consensus was (is) that yes, God chastens, which is basically in agreement with you. Right? By passionate discussion do you really mean you want to swap stories about personal episodes of being chastised? I think the consensus on that was clearly a big no and the reason was defined as it being an exercise in futility. 

 

Premise: We cannot define chastisement because God deals with us individually. Only the individual can know whether or not he/she is being disciplined or simply experiencing tribulation, which we were warned we would have in this world.

 

Yes or no?

 

I have to say, when you presented the premise the third time, as though you had not received an answer, after everyone had already agreed with you, not one disagreeing, I was dumbfounded. It was as though you wanted something else but could not ask. How can we answer what you will not ask? 

 

I’ll seize this opportunity to say that I decided to come out of reading only mode to join the discussions in this forum, not because I thought I had something to teach, but because, after following the threads in this forum for months, I believed I could learn and grow by contributing, and interacting. If something I post elicits words of wisdom from those who have wisdom to share, I have to be brave enough to toss it out and then humble enough to accept the wisdom given. Like everyone else I have had bad experiences in forums and stopped participating because of unnecessary contention. I don’t find that sort of thing in here. What I find in this group is a high level of spiritual knowledge, and heart. This is a rare combination in such a diverse group. Controversial topics are not avoided but handled with grace. 

 

Kenny, I said I appreciated this discussion and I stand by that. I’m just not sure that those of us who agreed with you are talking about what you really want to discuss. 

 

For Him,

Meema


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#58 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 07:53 AM

I forgot to mention, I am a controversial person

  Glad you remembered to mention it!! It's quite important and the end result is laid down in Scripture.  2Timothy 2:23-24 "23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful"


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#59 Julie Daube

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:42 AM

So, Kenny, are you saying that when Christians disobey, they come under God's curse? Because I thought Jesus became a curse for us when He died on the cross and that He redeemed us from the curse.

Is this not true?

Again, I am NOT denying that God chastens/corrects us when necessary. What I most objected to in your original post was the implication that God curses us when we disobey. If that's what you believe, it contradicts the following Scripture:

"For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.'[a] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because 'the righteous will live by faith.'[b] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, 'The person who does these things will live by them.'[c] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.'[d] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit" (Galatians 3:10-14).

This Scripture plainly states that it is those who rely on the law who are cursed.

To me, an understanding of the grace we have under the New Covenant is far more important than obsessing over punishment, discipline, and chastening. The more we understand God's grace and how much He loves us, the less we will want to sin. In my own life, I have found grace to be a much stronger motivator for obedience than the fear of being chastened -- because I know that my precious Redeemer paid such a heavy price for the grace He lavishes on us so freely.

#60 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:19 PM

Kenny, I can't count the number of times that I promised myself that I was THOUGH with this forum. But here I am.....back again. I like you avatar: "Go The Distance".    Please come back. You have often-times offered words that would see me through a problem. You are a valuable member here and have much to offer.  Ain't no sense in letting this thread drive you away.

    I almost quit the other day: I poured my heart out to another (newer) member here in the hopes that he would see light at the end of his tunnel........and I never got a reply back or even an acknowledgement. And, truth be told, I'm more than a little childish about these matters. "I spent all of that time typing out that long post in the hope that this new guy would be encouraged and I doubt he even read the confounded thing!!!! Grrrrr!"   I was about to call it quits over that.

   But I didn't. Besides, I wouldn't be missed very long if at all.So PLEASE reconsider!!!! Your insight is MUCH NEEDED around here. By me, and I'm sure, by many more.

  I'll close with a goodie....Proverbs 27:17: "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another."


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