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Here are two things that Jesus said that is a mite confusing


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#21 Tkulp

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Posted 02 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

Charlie, I am sorry, but I do not know how to communicate with you, in order to have, or come to, any common understanding, so that we might grow or walk together, in a deeper relationship with our Creator God. My desire is to worship Him, together, in Spirit and in Truth.

 

What I posted was a response to your previous post. The post is a statement, there are no questions, but it is not ‘my’ statement. My post is a group of selected statements, from a dictionary and the Bible. It was an attempt to help you see where your ideas differ from the Spirit of the Word of God. I am referring to the ideas that you expressed in your previous post, that I did not find in the Bible.

 

I was responding to your opinions about: who Jesus is and where He is; if there are any seats in the Temple; the relationship between Jesus and the Father; the TRUE believer’s relationship between Jesus and the Father; and justification. Yes, Charlie, ‘your opinions’, that are not supported by any authority higher than your own remembrance of things that you have read or heard. That is what I was attempting to shed the Light of the Word upon.

 

You say that you believe that God is the same as He always was, and that you do not doubt His Word, but you will not quote His Word, even when I have asked you to. I do not understand anyone not quoting something that they passionately believe, unless they really do not know Word of God.

 

You are basically saying your ideas are in the Bible. I take it that I am to trust you, and your memory, when I do not trust even my own thoughts and memory. I must go back often to make sure I only say what the Bible says; in addition, I want to make sure that I say it in the same Spirit that the Bible does.

 

I am pleading with you to read, study and quote the Word, so that you can honestly and purely, know what it says. (As I am re-reading what I have written, I realized that you seem to be very content with what you are and believe, totally at peace. That may be the reason that you write the way you do, without any concern for facts or details, without any ‘trying of the spirits’ or proof of the truth. Possibly a type of ‘faith’ that needs no facts, evidence or fruitful results; no accountability; no faithfulness! For me that would be taking a chance of walking on thin ice!)

 

Your ideas definitely have their roots in the Word, but that is all. I have not found your ideas stated, as you write them, in any translation of the Bible. Please show me! There is no way, I know of, to show the differences between what you say and I say, if you can not find the verses that support your beliefs, and share them.

 

For you to assume that I agree with you is not a good idea! I do not ever recall saying that I agreed with you or telling you that you were wrong, but without going back and carefully looking at each post and e-mail, neither of us can say for sure what is true, regarding what I have written. We are human and we forget. That is not a sin. It is a sin to say, as a fact, without checking, that I have said something that I have never said. It would be called lying.

 

This may seem like a foolish example, but it becomes eternally critical when we live, talk and write carelessly about the Word of God. It is not only critical to us, but if we are speaking things that are not true and others are influenced by the false, and live by it, we influence others to possibly destroy their life. In the same thought, Jesus said of the Pharisees, ““Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You cross land and sea to make one convert, and when you get one, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves!” Matthew 23:15

 

It is ‘critical that we have, and know, the Truth of the Word of God, before we begin sharing solutions, to help others with their problems. The Word of God is essential for life, but people do all kinds of things with explaining it. Satan is operating as an Angel of Light, twisting the meanings and understanding of what the Bible says, leading those who sit or stand in the presence of the world and do not spend time with the Holy Spirit, into Darkness, confusion and death.

 

Sharing unfounded ideas is like a doctor treating his patients according to the patient’s description or understanding of their symptoms; without having any blood work, MRI, x-rays, etc. done. The patients’ feelings are important, but they are easily distorted or misunderstood.

 

It is not wise to try to treat your own spiritual ailments, it may be like trying to be your own physician. The heart is deceitful. You may not look, critically at facts, like blood work, etc. You can believe that you are living in the light, but what if the Spirit of the Word says that it is darkness?  “...If then the very light in you [your conscience] is darkened, how dense is that darkness!” Matthew 6:22-24 It is very hard for any one in that dense of darkness to ever see any light. The Truth is not something to take lightly or presumptuously!

 

We have the example of God’s relationship and warning to Cain, before he killed his brother. “Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.” Genesis 4:6-7

 

God is still the same today. He, through His word, His Spirit, His messengers, etc. warns us. If we submit to the Holy Spirit, God’s Laws written on our hearts, repent and do well, we will be accepted. If we do not do well, sin is at our door and we must master it. This is NOT a done deal! We deal with it every day. Peter was talking to believers when he said, “Your enemy the devil, like a roaring lion, is on the prowl looking for someone to devour.” 1 Peter 5:8 Satan already has the World under His control. He is looking to devour believers. Peter knew from experience what Satan could do when he wrote this warning! He also knew the mercy found through humility, repentance and obedience to the Holy Spirit living inside his body.

 

God is still faithful to warn! A wise man will heed the warnings!

 

Tim



#22 Charles Miles

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Posted 04 March 2017 - 09:57 AM

Tim,  Very sorry about the communications.  I simply write and read this forum to share some of the things Holy Spirit shows me about myself and what those things mean to me on a deeper level. I do not have time or interest in copying verses from the Bible    just to show that I know where they are.  Years ago I stopped basing my relationship with the Lord upon isolated verses and phrases.  To me, the Bible is the story of a King, His creation, and His man. The whole book is one story of creation, rebellion, and restoration due to God`s love for us.  What Holy Spirit teaches me about a certain passage, may not be what He teaches you, or anyone else. He knows what I need to learn and when I need to learn it. I trust He will continue to teach me as He has done in the past. It seems that the two of us are not being taught the same lessons and truths at this time, and this is not unusual. The woman at the well did not get the same lesson as the blind man Jesus healed, who was later questioned. Jesus` message was essentially the same to all, but just given in different lessons, depending upon circumstances.

I will, just this one time give a few references to what was in my post, but I will never argue or become contentious with another believer over what I believe or my relationship with the Lord. I just will not go there and I hope you understand.  Peace to you.

 

Furnishings of the tabernacle...Exodus Chap 25-26

Furnishings of the temple....1 Kings Chap 5,6,7

Where Jesus is now and what He is doing...Hebrews Chap 8

 

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

 

Charlie


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#23 ADVRider

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:57 PM

It's not knowing the Bible that makes a person right with God; it's allowing the Bible to transform us. In my experience, that is a process--actually a life-long process. No doubt, there is grace and the enabling of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin. But we live from faith to faith, victory to victory. We are not complete in ourselves while dwelling in this flesh. All of the scriptures that speak of overcoming sin do not refer to self-effort, will-power or the like; they must be coupled with brokenness, humility, admission of our sins, and dependence on the Holy Spirit. A man cannot be right with God in his own ability or efforts. And, "we do not arrive." If we could, Jesus would be a non-entity; He would be irrelevant because we would be like God, righteous-capable within ourselves. Are there some who are deceived by thinking holiness is not required? Certainly. But there are others who think right thinking is all that is needed, i.e. scripture knowledge, etc. 

 

What is holiness? And what does it look like? Hey, a new thread. There are some very holy saints who cannot read, but the Word of God and the love of God is spread abroad in their hearts. David, the sinner, was a man after God's own heart. Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Please, let's walk in humility and kindness towards one another, gently encouraging one another.  


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#24 Tkulp

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:45 PM

Ok, ADVRider,

 

I just noticed that you had joined in the conversation that Charlie and I are having. Sorry, I do not wish to confuse issues, Yes, maybe a new thread.

 

It was only the Lord that encouraged me to check out your profile and what you had recently been posting. Surprise, here you are with me and Charlie.

 

I do have a reply for Charlie written, but have not felt free to post it, as I alluded to in the other forum.

 

I love to talk about the Word, but, decently and in order, please. New thread, or comments on the blog that I just started would be great.

 

Thanks again for your input at Truth or Error, please try again!!

 

Tim

 

PS Holiness is just down my ally, so to speak. It is a commandment. Be ye Holy as I am Holy! or, Be ye Holy for I am Holy!

 

PPS Is it you or the Bible that says, "David, the sinner, was a man after God's own heart." I would not consider that statement to be exactly correct. Do you know why?



#25 Tkulp

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 12:14 PM

Thank you Charlie, for taking the time and trouble to send me some references.

Just a few comments on your ideas taken from these verses and then a few questions.

You say,
“The Levitical priests stood all the time for 2 reasons: 1. They were continually offering sacrifices for the people, and they did this ALL DAY.  2. There were NO CHAIRS in the temple.”

Maybe you might be interested in one verse that talks about a priest, what he was doing and a chair in the temple. 1Samuel1:9  “On one occasion in Shiloh, after they had finished eating and drinking, Hannah got up. (Now at the time Eli the priest was sitting in his chair by the doorpost of the LORD’s temple.)”

Another totally different concept of seat, chair or throne, not for priests but for God is found in the chapters that you listed in Exodus Chapters 25 and 26, it is the “mercy seat”. The mercy seat was where God sat in the temple on earth. In the Heavenly Temple, I believe you will find that the seat is replaced by a throne.

Revelation 7:15  For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple, and the one seated on the throne will shelter them.

I will pass over some of your other ideas, on to Hebrews 8 and what Jesus did for us.

I have a few questions regarding Hebrews Chapter 8 and some of the posts you have made here in Kevin’s forum. I could not help but notice that you appeared to have no problem ‘quoting verses’ for Kevin.

Putting some of the things that you have said together in one place leaves me a bit confused in regard to what you really believe about the gospel of Jesus.

You just told me that...
“Years ago I stopped basing my relationship with the Lord upon isolated verses and phrases.”
Just a few months ago, in December, it appears that you based ‘Kevin’s relationship’ of a pure heart, with the Lord “upon isolated verses and phrases” and opinions of your own, which I really need help understanding.

 

 

Kevin my old friend, how are you? I have been away for quite some time and just checked into the forum to see who is still around. I thank God that you are still here and asking questions that come from your heart.

A pure heart! How could anyone get one of those? Even if we had one, we would sin again and make it impure again, right? BUT, there must be a way to get this pure heart and keep it because Jesus said we would have to have it to see God. Since man is a sinner and can`t do any better through his own efforts, a pure heart would have to be a gift from God......through His grace.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 gives us God`s new Covenant and in it He says He will write on our hearts His law.  Another place Ezekiel 36, God says He will give us a new heart....one of flesh and not of stone.  This promise is repeated in Hebrews.

So here we stand with a new heart of flesh that God gave us and His laws written on this heart with His own hand. He then says that He is our God and we are His people!  Wow!  And the best part....."I will remember their sins no more"!!!!!!!  So God gives us a new heart and Kevin my brother...God only gives gifts that are the best, so this is the best, most pure heart anywhere in the universe....and He says He won`t ever take it back!

 

May God bless you Kevin,

 

Charlie

 

 

I wrote a post discussing Saul, but as I clicked on POS, it vanished! It is out there in cyberspace, so if anyone sees it please send it home.

Now, just a quick observation, then on to the OR. In that last post you spoke of 2 kinds of encouragement and I certainly would not want to leave without comment. You seem to say that we have to stop sinning to enter heaven, is that correct? And secondly you say "Jesus did it, so can we". I can say, for sure, that sin will not enter heaven but it will be because those who enter have the cloak of God`s own righteousness wrapped around them.....given by grace to those who have accepted Jesus as their savior.

I have never known or heard of anyone working hard enough to "live it just like Jesus". We may try very, very hard to get it right, but we fail...I know I fail. But I have an advocate, a man, standing at the right hand of God. He is my brother! He gave me his righteousness because mine alone is not adequate and I know it, so does he. So even as we try to live our lives without sin, we don`t, can`t, but we try don`t we. Don`t get me wrong here.....sinning is not "alright" in a Christian`s life, but we do live in a fallen world and just by walking through it we get dirt on our feet. Jesus has shown how he will wash it away.
"None are righteous, no not one". Because I have a loving relationship with Christ, He gives me his own righteousness so I might enter heaven as his brother, not the Charlie who does not deserve to be there on his own merit. Even trying with a blindfold just won`t get you there!

Your brother in Chris,

Charlie

 

 

Tim, Not sure if what you posted was a question or a statement, but here is where I stand on the issues....In matters of the Gospel, I do not waiver or doubt God`s word. God has been the same since he was, and he always was. I`m not sure what you were attempting to ask or state in you post, so let me ask a few things.
Jesus paid all our sin debts with his sacrifice on the cross. "paid in full", done, over, finished, and never to be done again. I`ll assume you have no problem with this.
After death Jesus went into hell, preached to the people there, made a spectacle of satan, took the keys of hell, then left the place.
After ascending to heaven with his blood for the mercy seat and sprinkling it there, he sat down at the right hand of God. I`ll bet you and I both agree so far.
Jesus has been and is, praying for us as our advocate. We have a MAN sitting on the throne I heaven acting as our advocate with the Father.

Without the advocacy of Jesus, we could not be justified. Without justification we can`t enter n heaven.
We are justified at the time of our salvation, but since " we keep getting things wrong," we need an advocate, who is a man, in heaven, to continually pray to the Father about us.


Well, if you need scripture to back all this up, then start in the book of Job, then Isaiah, move to Romans, then a full study of the book of Hebrews would about cover it.

I have peace about the subject and I know that He is able to keep all His promises. Always has and always will. Where is my heart in all this? My heart is at rest and in peace. My yours be also. This post is certainly not meant to be sharp or a snappy answer. I just can`t tell by your post if it was a reply to my post or a question asking why I believe as I do. My answer is given in love, but may be a confusing answer to questions not asked.

Yours in Christ,

Charlie

 

Okay Charlie, so I am trying to put all this together to understand the foundation of what you believe, which you say that you are at peace with. How does Hebrews 8, and all these ideas, come together logically, to give you peace. Would you please simplify it for me?

I hear you saying that the human race can not stop sinning.

We have the righteousness of Christ, but we live in sin? ...We can’t help living in sin, because the world in which we live is evil?

Sin can not get into heaven, but ....because of the fallen world, which we have to walk in, we get get dirty (sin?), and Jesus will let us know how He will wash it and make it clean.

When exactly will we get clean?

Is righteousness something that I am or like a cover or a concept that just is, by faith, because Jesus is my brother. When I stand before the judgement seat, (or maybe I can skip that because of my brother) Jesus will say something like he’s clean because of me, or look at me, not him and his sin???

How does the advocate plead for a ruling of innocence, when, “we just keep getting it wrong” living in sin?

I hope that you can understand what I am looking for. Something that explains what you say. Can you help me? There is no need to cut and paste verses, just help me to see the gospel, as you see it. It is all rather confusing to my mind.

 

Tim



#26 Charles Miles

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 11:12 AM

I don`t have enough time today to do much here. There is this job thing that keeps me busy at times.
I`ll leave something to look over a bit until I can get back Fri. Chairs in the temple...Eli sat at the door to the temple? Not inside with the other items. Mercy seat? Well, that would probably be the judgement seat, not one a priest would sit on. Anyway...all this is kinda pointless to what I believe and why I am at peacUntil I can get time to answer some of this, maybe a reading of Romans 8 will explain why I am at peace.

Yours in Christ,

Charlie

#27 Tkulp

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:34 AM

Thanks Charlie,

 

I guess that the point that you had made was about the priests not sitting down.

 

Eli, the priest, was sitting down and was in such a position that he could see what was happening in the temple, according to the Scripture. He was able to see Hannah’s mouth moving as she prayed and had time to misunderstand her problem.

 

Yes, I did not understand the real point of what you had seen and talked about in your email either.

 

But...  Romans 8... what a fantastic portion of the letter to the Romans, for those that are “in” Jesus, for real, with the active fruit it coming from their pure and holy speech and actions. If Jesus is “in” you, you will know it and so will those closest to you.

 

Any how, it is located after the preparing ideas found in Chapter 5-7, where Paul is talking about sin, the flesh and the delivering benefits of grace (which is, the divine (Jesus’) influence on our hearts and the reflection of that influence in our lives)

Here is my take, in a short, on Romans 5-8! I hope that you can see what I have seen.

 

Romans 5:21  ...so that just as sin was in control and brings death, so also now grace (the divine influence of Christ’s Spirit living “in” us) will be in control through ‘right living’ which leads to eternal life, all because of the free gift of the Spirit of  Jesus Christ our Lord ‘living’ “in” us.

Romans 6 What shall we say then? Are we to remain ‘in’ sin so that grace (the divine influence) may increase?

Absolutely not!  How can we who died to sin still live ‘in’ sin.... if we have become united with him... We know that our old man was crucified with him so that the body of sin would no longer dominate us, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

 

                   {Remember that God has not changed!   Genesis 4:7  Is it not true that if you do what is

                           right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door.

                           It desires to dominate you, but you must subdue sin.}

 

....Therefore do not let sin be in control in your human body so that you obey sins desires...  For sin will have no control over you, because you are not following a rule or law but following grace (the divine influence of the Spirit of Christ living “in” you)....

... Shall we sin because we are not following a rule or law but under grace (the divine influence of the Spirit of Christ living “in” you)....? Absolutely not!

Do you not know that ‘if’ you present yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or obedience resulting in righteousness?

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to, and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

 

Romans 7   ....Is the law sin? Absolutely not!   ... the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

 

...the law is spiritual — but without the divine influence of Jesus Christ I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin, by the disobedience of Adam.  ...I don’t understand what I am doing. For I do not do what I want — instead, I do what I hate.

But if I do what I don’t want, I agree that the law is good.   But now it is no longer me doing it, but the influence of sin that lives ‘in’ me, controlling me.

 

Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of flesh, controlled by its feelings and senses, leading to death?

 

O thank God! [He will!] through Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) our Lord (Controller, dictator, or our Divine Influence)! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. The flesh and its control must die and the Divine Influence of the Holy Spirit must be fed and kept alive and in Control!

 

Romans 8  ....There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.  For the principle of the life-giving Spirit “inChrist Jesus through His Divine Influence has set you free from the principle of the fleshly senses controlling you, which is sin and death.

 

... the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is it able to do so.

Those who are “inthe flesh cannot please God.

 

... “if” the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead livesinyou, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who livesinyou.

 

... all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

 

...Paul is convinced that nothing can separate us from the love of God, I agree, His love assures me that He will punish those that do not obey and bless those that do obey, He will always be faithful. He loved humanity so much that He sent Jesus to be the final sacrifice; enabling us to be living sacrifices, holy and unblemished, acceptable; led by the Spirit of God and dead to the flesh and the law of sin! His adopted sons!



#28 Tkulp

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 10:34 AM

ADVRider, it you are still dropping in, the post to Charlie might help you understand a bit about my foundation for Holiness.



#29 Charles Miles

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 07:53 PM

Yes, Romans 8 is a real comfort for those of us with a relationship with the Lord. The first part of Romans is needed to lead us up to Chap 8 which explains what we have a children of God when we do have a personal relationship with him. Personally I don`t think we understand what was done for us unless we understand the condition we were in before meeting, believing in, and having a relationship with Jesus.

How do sinners get into heaven? Well, there is this matter of justification(righteousness) given to us by Jesus himself. His sacrifice was done once for all, and was for all sin...past, present, and future. I have no illusions that I am sinless and anyone who thinks they are, well, they are mistaken. I repent, ask forgiveness, and know that Jesus is my advocate at the right hand of God the Father. He prays for me daily. He tells me I am his and he will not forsake me. He tells me that all those given to him are his and he has never lost even one.

From your posts I can tell that you know the Lord and you already know all this information. I am interested in why you ask the questions that you do about my understanding of God`s Word when you quote the Bible and obviously know where to find multiple scriptures. No, righteousness is not a "covering" or "cloak" draped over sin. It is forgiveness of sin and removing it to the point that God does not even remember it anymore. Sin does not dwell in us anymore. Yes, we do sin, but that is external, not something that lives in us anymore. Jesus says if we ask him, he will come and live in us and abide in us. Since we know that the Lord cannot abide sin, he can`t live there with any of it. When will we be sinless? Well, the instant we become fully sanctified, and sanctification is an ongoing process in my life as I work on becoming more "Christ like" in every way I can. I have a ways to go to get there, but I am a justified child of God and I already have my irrevocable pass into heaven....promised by Jesus, sealed by his sacrifice.

Tkulp, if you are not assured of your justification, at peace with your relationship with the Lord, and do not understand what has happened to "seal the deal" as far as heaven is concerned, then you have some work to do. This is not to say that you are not a justified, born again, child of the living God, just puzzled about some of your questions and statements.

I do wish you well and hope you find what you are searching for. Sometimes we get so involved with Biblical history and stories that we don`t see the forest for the trees. The Gospel of Jesus is so plain and simple that we often complicate it and make it this thing that is confusing.

Peace be with you,

Charlie
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#30 Tkulp

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 09:06 PM

Thank you Sooo..... very much for your complete and explicate answer to what your beliefs are.

 

Yes, you are correct as to my knowledge of, not just the Word of God, but the Spirit of the Word.

"Spirit of the Word" in my mind is what can not be twisted or mistranslated. God is Spirit and must be worshiped in Spirit and in Truth. It is the truths that run in the background and are always there no matter who is saying it or when it is said. It is TRUTH! God's Heart, how He thinks and acts.

 

I understand your confusion with my questions, especially if I already know the answers. The reason for my questions is to get you and all the people who might read this to know the possibility of deception and error. To get people to begin to dig for the answers, and have a good scriptural foundation for their beliefs, knowing truth from error. Sadly there are not a lot of 'learners' that are willing to spend time with the Holy Spirit learning. People want the good feelings, the gifts, but not a life changing, daily relationship with our Heavenly Father.

 

I want to use what you have written above as a foundation to establish Truth as separated from very subtle Error, according to the Bible and what it really says. Yes, I the information that you mention, but it does not say to me what it is saying to you. I can not agree with what you writing.

 

To give doctrine without two or three Scriptures to support it is a weak belief. To state doctrine that has no specific scriptural support is error.

 

As a doctor I am relatively sure you were taught not to use medicines that had not been tested and approved by the proper authorities. This procedure is supposed to prevent error. In practice, I do not see that it has worked, corruption and greed have interfered. We disagree on items of health. I accept that, but as I am not able to readily validate my beliefs with proof I will leave it alone. Really I do not have a heart to enlighten anyone in regard to diet and physical health. There are far more important things in my life, like knowing that God is my healer and wisdom.

 

As a child of God I see a parallel between the medical and the Spiritual. Those that are mature in the character of Jesus Christ are to have been a watch guard over the doctrinal truths taught to the body. Paul talks about the five fold ministries to perfect the Church. I do not see that they have succeeded, hunger for power, corruption and greed have interfered. Even before the letters, written by the apostle, were added to the canonized Bible, false and erroneous letters were being written and passed around. One of the concerns of the NT writers was false teachers and doctrines.

As with the medical, so it is with the spiritual, again we disagree. To me, the spiritual is far more critical than our physical health!!! Here the Holy Spirit, "in my mind", has given me "proof" of the truth, found in the Scriptures. Yes, I know the truths fairly well, from the Spirit's teaching and daily reminding me.

 

I have, because of the Spirit that is at work within me, taken the challenge of encouraging and attempting to get all that I can to become "learners", along with me, sitting daily at the feet of Jesus; learning, from the Holy Spirit, in a quiet place, with the Bible, "a walk", not a mind belief, or knowledge of the 'Scriptures' or of what they say, but a way to walk and live my life in union.

 

I see 'sanctification' as a doctrine, good and not so good, depending on how it is "lived"!! It is not something to be believed in, it is something that must be 'lived'. "You shall know the tree by its fruit".

 

To get a better understanding of what I live and believe,  I ask you to please, carefully read two posts that I have recently written. Compare the ideas with your ideas. What is Truth?

http://ecommunity.cm...ains-confusion/

http://ecommunity.cm...rlds-why-jesus/

 

Once again, I can not Thank you enough for staying with me, even when you disagree!!!! My heart breaks for those that do not have the time to read the Word and become a learner, about Jesus, His Father and their hearts.

 

Tim



#31 Charles Miles

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 08:47 PM

I have been out of touch for a while but I do agree with most of your post. For a man to seek God, he must first realize that he needs God, then the man can ask to be forgiven, say with his mouth and believe in his heart that Jesus is Lord, ask Jesus and the Father to come in and live with him, and then start the process of sanctification. A personal relationship with the Lord is most wonderful state of affairs that a man`s soul can be in. Certainly one can be saved and be out of a close relationship with the Lord.....but my what a waste.
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#32 Tkulp

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 12:29 AM

Charlie,

 

I find Tozer's devotional very interesting, as I finish writing this post. Here is the site location as I only quote part of it.

 

               https://www.cmallian...ns/tozer?id=762

 

What Do You Mean?

"A disturbing phenomenon of the day is the new and tricky use of familiar words.

.... Among religious words which have lost their Christian meaning are ''inspiration, ''revelation,'' ''spiritual,'' ''fellowship,'' ''brotherhood,'' ''unity,'' ''worship,'' ''prayer,'' ''heaven,'' ''immortality,'' ''hell,'' ''Lord,'' ''new birth,'' ''converted''--but the list is long and includes almost every major word of the Christian faith."

 

Verse

''If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me.'' First Corinthians 14:11

 

Thought

We have all engaged in conversation where the same word is used but with different meaning. Quite confusing! Even more so when terms are being used that designate spiritual reality. Are we careful definers?

 

Prayer

Lord, keep me from confusing and misleading people by incorrect use of terms, especially those that deal with spiritual reality.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I want to compare some things that you have written to what I find the Bible has to say about each concept.

 

First the idea of sanctification...

 

You have stated,

"ask Jesus and the Father to come in and live with him, and then start the process of sanctification."

Rom 6:17-19  But thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were entrusted to and having been freed from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

(I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh.) For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

 

If I am not mistaken, this appears to be a progressive list, steps one, two and three. Step one... having been freed from sin     Step two...  became enslaved to righteousness... , then... as slaves to righteousness     Step three... leading to sanctification!

 

Being free from sin appears to be an initial requirement of being a slave to righteousness, then you are lead to sanctification.

 

Sadly, according to your next statement, sanctification is not something that is possible for what you say you believe. First, sanctification means, " The act of making holy. In an evangelical sense, the act of God's grace by which the affections of men are purified or alienated from sin and the world, and exalted to a supreme love to God."

 

Since sanctification means that you are alienated(To estrange; to withdraw, as the affections) from not only sin, but also the world, then even with a little sin, even occasionally in your life, sanctification is not possible.

As I understand you to think, sanctification is a progressive diminishing of sin in a person's life, but one would never be able to reach purity, faultlessness or holiness, as you believe that sin is a life long issue with no possible deliverance.  

 

 

Now to the subject of sin....

You have stated,

"I have no illusions that I am sinless and anyone who thinks they are(sinless), well, they are mistaken."

 

First Noah Webster to help define 'Sin' used as a noun.

1. The voluntary departure of a moral agent from a known rule of rectitude or duty, prescribed by God; any voluntary transgression of the divine law, or violation of a divine command; a wicked act; iniquity.

 

James 4:17  So any person who knows what is right to do but does not do it, to him it is sin.

As a concept 'sin' is a voluntary choice not to do what you know you should be doing. I want to make a clear statement that sin, according to Webster is not an accident! We know what we are doing when we 'sin'.

 

The Bible supports the idea that we are knowingly going against that which we know is right. Under the new covenant the law is written on our hearts (the feelings, the will and even the intellect).  It is a voluntary choice on our part, that starts in our minds and possibly emotions working. It ends up if not dealt with correctly, in an action, spoken or otherwise.

 

You have said that you believe that God is the same and has not changed. Well, you have read the verses, out of the Bible, that I have written several times to you,  what Paul says to the Romans, but you do not seem to accept, or understand, what the "Bible" says.

 

Here it is again, may the Holy Spirit open your understanding:

 

Genesis 4:7  Is it not true that if you do what is right, you will be fine? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at the door. It desires to dominate (be in control of) you, but you must subdue(master) it(sin)."

 

This is the heart of God talking to Cain, trying to protect Cain from yielding to 'sin,' before he killed his brother. This is a warning from God that sin wants to have us and be in control, but we must control, subdue or master sin!

 

God believed that it was possible, from the beginning, that sin could be mastered, not given into.

 

God would not tell anyone that they must do something that was not possible for them to do!

 

I want to reemphasize what Genesis 4:7 is telling us that God says... "... but you must subdue(master) it(sin)."

 

And Paul to the Romans, says the same exact idea, different words:

Rom 6:12-16  "Therefore do not let sin reign (that means be in control of you)in your mortal body so that you obey its desires,  and do not present your members to sin as instruments to be used for unrighteousness..." "... Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)?

 

John says it even stronger and more emphatically in 1 John 3:8-9  "[But] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning.

The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God."

 

Your statement... "anyone who thinks they are (sinless), well, they are mistaken."

 

As I reread your statement and the statements from the Bible, I do not see agreement. It comes across to me that you are saying that what  God and His Word say we should do, is really not possible to do?? Could it be that God would tell us to do something that we can't do?

 

As you continue, you appear to contradict your self by saying...

 

"Sin does not dwell in us anymore."  Yes, we do sin, but that is external, not something that lives in us anymore."

 

Charlie, this is where it is critical to know the Scripture. Sin is only external if we do not have anything to do with it(sin)! If we sin than we have not subdued or mastered it(sin), we have let it(sin),  find a home in our minds.

 

For Cain, it was thoughts of angry, because his brother did right and he did not do right. Sin came into Cain, as he allowed it to enter his mind, by entertaining (mentally dwelling on) anger against his brother. Cain sinned when sin (selfish anger) entered his mind and Cain allowed sin to stay and make itself at home in his thoughts. If Cain would have obeyed God and gotten rid of the selfish thoughts, Cain would not have disobeyed God and not sinned. Instead Cain did let sin come in and influence thoughts, resulting in his continued wrong actions that lead to planning and carrying out murder.

 

If we sin, it is because we let selfish, disobedient thoughts find a home inside of us. You are correct to say that Jesus can not and will not live where there is selfishness of any kind, and He is not obeyed. Therefore it is impossible for sin to be external while Jesus is internal.

 

The Bible says that whatever is inside, from the influences that we place our selves under and the thoughts that have a home in our minds... that is what will come out of us. Our speech and actions are the fruit produced by whatever is taken in and allowed to be living in us.

 

Sin produces all kinds of selfish, vain, hurtful words and actions. ...or maybe it should be said, and be more accurate that selfishness produces sin.

 

Jesus and the Holy Spirit produces patience, self control, caring for others, fair and just treatment of others, and all sorts of good works.

 

Jesus says in Luke 6:43-46  "For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorns, nor are grapes picked from brambles

The good person out of the good treasury of his heart(the heart is the mind; welcomed and entertained thoughts) produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasury produces evil, for his mouth speaks from what fills his heart (the heart is the mind; welcomed and entertained thoughts).

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and don't do what I tell you?

 

That,  Charlie, is what Jesus has to say about your sin being external and not internal. Why do you say that Jesus is living inside of you, pure and holy, but externally you do not do what Jesus tells you to do? Disobedience being sin.

 

Would God respond differently today than He did with Saul, written in 1 Samuel 16:14  "But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented and troubled him."? Why? ...because of disobedience. Saul had also received a new heart, but he did not keep it clean.

 

"IF" the sinless Jesus is in control inside, that life can only produce good fruit, internally and externally. Obedience is to be free from sin, and/or disobedience.

 

"IF" selfishness and sin is in control inside (the heart which is the mind; welcomed and entertained thoughts), that life can only produce vain, selfish, harmful fruit, internally and externally. Disobedience is to be bound, enslaved to sin.

 

Jesus was sent to the cross to deliver those, who actively believe in Him, from the power of sin.

 

Darkness is confusion, stumbling and sin; so to be living in confusion, stumbling and sin is to live in darkness! 

 

Light is the revelation of Truth, seeing the pitfalls, deceptions, etc. and being able to avoid all evil. Light is being able to walk and build your life on the rock Jesus Christ by obedience to the known will of God. Light reveals the Truth. Do you really love Christ and God by keeping and obeying their commandments or do you just say you love them with no evidence of that love.

 

Why would anyone that has known the joy and freedom of light want to go back to walk and stumble in darkness?

 

Could it be the very same reason that some people that have been strong and in good health, end up weak and sickly.

 

Good health comes, in short, from a good diet, plenty of fresh air and exercise; a strong immune system. Will disease attack? ...yes, but God designed a strong immune system to kill that which is harmful.

What are some of the things that destroy the immune system? Foods that please the tongue and the sensual appetites; top on the list is refined sugar. It not only weakens the immune system, it feeds funguses and cancer, that destroy meaningful life and grow worthless cells. Please forgive me if I have may not have stated the concept scientifically accurate. Please get the truth of the analogy.

 

Why do people love darkness rather than light? Because their deeds are evil!  What is evil? Vain, worthless and selfish things which cause harm or destruction or misfortune.

 

They may know or have known some truth, but have not exercised spiritually. They have destroyed their spiritual immune system with the pleasures and influences of this world feeding the destructive selfish part of their being. Worthless, selfish activities that take away time which otherwise could be spent in growing closer to spiritual maturity, which has both immediate and eternal value. Selfishness grows worthless lives that feed only vain, worthless activities that destroy much that is good and valuable in God's creation.

 

Selfishness and sin is spiritual cancer!

 

You say,

"Certainly one can be saved and be out of a close relationship with the Lord"

 

The Bible says the following, about three different groups of people, that thought  they where both 'saved' and 'eternally saved', but did not have a 'close' relationship,

 

Mat 7:21-23  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of heaven... ....I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Go away from me, you lawbreakers!' "

 

Luke 13:23-27  Someone asked him, "Lord, will only a few be saved?" So he said to them, "Exert every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, then you will stand outside and start to knock on the door and beg him, 'Lord, let us in!' But he will answer you, 'I don't know where you come from.'

Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.'  But he will reply, 'I don't know where you come from! Go away from me, all you evildoers!'

 

Mat 25:6-13  But at midnight there was a shout, 'Look, the bridegroom is here! Come out to meet him.'

Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, because our lamps are going out.'(These were pure, but foolish. They had not maintained the Light! They were going to be in darkness, very shortly.)  'No,' they replied. 'There won't be enough for you and for us. Go instead to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

But while they had gone to buy it, the bridegroom arrived, and those who were ready went inside with him to the wedding banquet. Then the door was shut.

Later, the other virgins came too, saying, 'Lord, lord! Let us in!'

But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I do not know you!'

Therefore stay alert, because you do not know the day or the hour.

 

 

Medically, the mentality I see in the world today, briefly, is to patch you up and cover up pain of 'wrong living' with drugs; Never really getting to true causes of the sickness or building up the immune system. Have you ever noticed how big and beautiful the hospitals are getting? All the wonderful equipment and new drugs all the time; as well as all the money for research?

 

The church I see is following the same ideas, a quick fix, pickup; mostly now, you can get all you need on a Sunday morning.  Lots of love, good feelings, and all kinds of specialized classes and seminars. Programs to get everyone 'saved' but not delivered, from the influences of, or conformity to the world, or deliverance from sin.

Lives sick with immorality, but no real cure. No true Godly sorrow or repentance. Self help programs and patch ups but no power for deliverance from the power of self and sin. No death to the carnal man, the self life. Free to live lives that destroy the spiritual immune system until there is little difference between the lives of  those inside the church from those outside.

 

Have you noticed the churches today? ....bigger and more beautiful? ...the lighting and video/sound equipment??? ...big productions?? ...gymnasiums? ...kitchens? ...recording studios? ...television studios? ...sports? ...entertainment?? Is it not so much spiritual sugar, feeding the appetites of the flesh, the human senses, the selfish cancer, sin? vanity? worthlessness?

 

The bottom line is, how much of all of this is feeding that which the Bible says is to be dead, because it is eternally worthless? ...and, How much is feeding that of the soul, which is of eternal value?

 

What is being sought after the most today? More money to support and build better programs, more paid workers, bigger churches, more outreach? ...or  Encouragement to separate from the world, faithfulness to holiness, spiritual purity and Godliness; seeking the divine influence that changes lives and keeps them faithful to the new life, obedient to the Holy Spirit.

 

Like the medical, eat what ever you want, get a shot, pill or IV to give you what they think you need.

The modern religious spirit, live how ever you want, we'll pump you up and make you feel good on Sunday, they say that Jesus has it all taken care of; Just go to confession on Friday or say you're sorry every night and you will have eternal life if you believe.

"the demons believe ...and tremble with fear."

 

Please, is this not in reality, saying that evil is good; darkness is light?

 

Paul, misunderstood, says... "What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase? Romans 6:1" 

Isaiah 5:20  "Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness