12 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

Call total inerrancy and Inspiration (verbal, plenary inspiration) of the Scriptures into question. Discourage holiness of life by equating it with "legalism." Suggest that we have to re-interpret Genesis 1-11 within the claims of what is called science. Treat historical events as stories and teach them as stories. Rationalize miracles away. Influence churches to develop strategies for growth in numbers and giving, instead of real growth in the knowledge and application of the Word of God. Suggest that doctrine is boring and/or difficult. Exalt experience over sound doctrine. Make entertainment a major component of church life, including sanctified versions of what used to be clearly understood as sin. Fill pulpits with men who have only a superficial grasp of the Bible. Introduce music that is man centered or that lacks sound Scriptural Truth. Let instruments create (often discordant) sounds or other sounds that override the message rather than support it. These kinds of things are creeping and deadly sin! Ask yourself who would be very pleased with what has been slowly developing. We are in desperate need of deep-seated and far-reaching revival. What else could turn the tide that threatens to sweep over the church? Jude's exhortation is very timely in our day. In verse 3, he wrote, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." Selah! God, Raise up a host who will uncompromisingly decide that these things must be firmly resisted and who will lead us in a return to an in depth engagement with the Holy Scriptures.   Ron

[Kenny]

I guess in some sense it's true that today's church is no longer converting the world, but rather the world is converting the church. Someone once said, "it's OK for the ship to be in the sea, but it's not OK for the sea to be in the ship." And we know that when the sea begins entering the ship that ship begins to sink. 

 

I would guess that there may be many who would tell us never to say anything negative about the Church and to just turn a blind eye on all the changes we see before our eyes. Yet Tozer was not one who minced words about what he noticed happening in the church of his time.

 

A.W. Tozer went home to be with the Lord in 1963, yet even in his days he stated; "Much that passes for New Testament Christianity is little more than objective truth sweetened with song and made palatable by religious entertainment.  - A W Tozer

[Kevin Blankenship]

I think (seriously) that we (the true believer's in each town) should all gather in one barn (there would likely be room to spare......straight is the gate....narrow the way...etc) and worship there.   Just all of the true believers  from all denominations go missing from your normal churches and start meeting with persons of like precious faith. IN A BARN!!!!!!   Forget the chandeliers. The formalities. The grand piano. The Hammond B3 organ.  Forget all of these trapping. Now,......everyone carry an old hymnbook and your Bible to that old Barn on 11 am on Sunday.  No one preach ANY of those ALLITERATED sermons. Let those shoe-horned things stay up there in the nice buildings. In fact.,......first meeting.,......NO sermon.  Just meet one another.  Everyone come to the podium one at a time and give us about 2 minutes of why you think that you are a Christian. That's all the time it'll take to see if the BIG "I" is still lord.....or if Jesus is Lord. This sounds like a radical plan doesn't it.  It feels right, okay.    

[chipped china]

 Ok, when and where? Keep it a secret from the world!

[Kevin Blankenship]

I'll have to try and centralize all of our locations.....and then.....find a farmer whose barn is not being used.   Get some bales of hay in there and some coal oil lamps.  I know that mine is just wishful thinking. But just the fact that we are meeting in a barn, (yes, complete with barnyard smells) will possibly weed out (tare out.....I made a pun....lol) the half hearteds. But I would venture to say that if the truly committed.....the true lovers of Jesus....would gather together.......we would see Spiritual results.

   What if a man had enough cash to buy a couple or three acres of land. He could build a nice big red barn. No names or labels on it.  But, by word of mouth, let all of the true believers know that meetings would be held there on, say.....Friday night.  No refreshments. No TV.  No electricity.  (no....I'm not Amish..lol).   The idea is to get rid of the nice plush burgundy padded pews.  Bales of hay would work JUST FINE for those who really want to hear what God has to say when two or three gather in HIS NAME. No prepared sermons. ESPECIALLY of the alliterated type. Just a meeting togther and starting it off as a Prayer meeting. And a getting to know one another.  Deeper than what usually happens in your standard church.  I don't know......sound like going backwards......but there might be something to it.  And we'll let GOD add to the church daily such as should be saved. So we won't be voting in a Church growth committee. In fact....NO COMMITTEES ALLOWED. We can sing acapella unless one of you can strum a guitar. That's plenty.  Maybe a harmonica.....   Ah....never mind.   Just letting my imagination run away with me,

[chipped china]

Why is it I'm so attracted to this old biblical church style. Meeting in a barn or someone's home, coming together without a regimented worship. Starting off with prayer with the least being the first, all just being lover's of Christ sharing what we are learning and discussing scripture. Helping those who have needs and sharing in the Lord's supper.

About a year ago I attended a biweekly church that met at a restaurant or in someone's home. The town is so small it maybe has 100 people living there year round.

It's funny but I never broke in to that group who had been meeting like that for 20 years. It wasn't because of the people it was because of one couple and me. The husband had sold everything he owned and bought a motor home. He believed God had told him to take to the road to help build churches. He was a loving man but most of the time he took over the teaching. One day he asked me if I spoke in prayer tongues and I told no, I don't have that gift. He told me that spiritually I wasn't quite "there" yet. As you can suspect that didn't go over too much with me. I had to defend myself biblically and leave it there. It really turned me off. I also noticed a month or later he wasn't no longer there. Now as far as speaking in tongues, I'm not against it for those who have that gift. And I don't want to get into that discussion again because to me it's not critical for salvation or even growing in His knowledge. What is critical is knowing Jesus and surrendering my life to Him.

 

So the point is: would I stick around even in a barn????  It seems I'm destined to look for the people the Lord puts into my life daily. It's as simple as saying Merry Christmas, God bless you to the Salvation Army worker or striking up a conversation with someone in the doctor's office. The problem is, sometimes I'm in a hurry or I may not feel like talking. I wonder how many opportunities I've let slide by when God had something for me to do? For many of us these one and one exchanges are our ministry, and if we looked at it that way how many people could we touch with His Spirit? Just look for the God "things", be open to being His vessel.

[Big John]

Hey y'all,

I have read some of the views about church, etc above and I have been dismayed to have read about what sounds like so many bad or at least poor church experiences. It doesn't suprise me because I have attended a few churches over the years that just were not fit to open their doors.

I just wanted to say that I honestly believe that the proper order for christians is to be involved in a good church where you can be taught and trained. Now with that said I also know that there are very, very few churches out there that fit the model, well, enough to be able to rely on them for the kind of training we all need in God. So please understand that I am NOT trying to criticize if you have not found such a church.

I just really do NOT believe in lone ranger christians unless there is nothing that can be done about it. I hope I haven't stepped on any toes because the way I see it, I'm not saying any of you are doing anything wrong. I have heard a number of you describing trying to find a good church.

I just spoke up to say that we shouldn't encourage people to not try to find that teaching and training. Again, I have to say that I was very blessed to have both grandfathers and grandmothers, as ministers, involved in my life and just happened on a church when I was in college. And I can honestly say that it is what I have learned there and continue to learn that has made all the difference in my life and the life of my family.

Big John

[chipped china]

Big John,

I'm just speaking for myself here and I understand what you are saying and take your counsel seriously. I do have a church that I occasionally attend and don't feel like there is anything wrong with it. I go to a women's bible study once a week that's deep and fulfilling. I guess I feel like a church service is regimented and lacks spontaneity. I want to get to know people and understand who they are while glorifying God. I'm just not good at what I see as the superficial stuff. I know that sounds self-centered because I'm suppose to be worshipping God with others and caring for others in the Body. But isn't it true that Jesus said when two or more are gathered in My Name I will be there? After having a spiritual talk with a friend I said thank you for having church with me and his eyebrows raised... but isn't it true? And sometimes even on this site I believe the Holy Spirit is at work. I read my bible, listen to bible studies and sermons everyday. What I desire is deeper life relationships, not "how are you today". We have enough pastors and teachers, the Word through the Holy Spirit is our true teacher. We need closer relationships with others. Honestly, I don't get that at church because I'm a one on one or small group person and somewhat of a loner. I'm glad when people get a home church where they belong. My sister is like you and always encourages me to go to church. When her husband was sick for 3 years and died the Body was there for her. Amen!

 

Honestly, I know churches have there place and do many things that are in the will of God. I'm just a black sheep listening for the voice of my Master because I'm more melancholy than sanguine.

 

I guess I feel like when I am transparent, open and loving I'm giving people a gift. It makes me laugh at myself because some people don't think it's much of a gift. I have been accused of pushing my boundaries but it's not because I want to judge. I want to understand and accept, encourage, share and uplift. And if they are on the wrong path help them understand why. I appreciate it when people do that with me if it's done in love. So thanks for making me search myself and hopefully the Lord will make my paths straight. In Christ's love, betsy

[Kevin Blankenship]

Chipped China, I read what you wrote and I feel that I am in the same boat, so to speak.  Now, I don't know you well enough to know if you are like I am, as far as social-ability goes. I wake up on Sunday morning.  I get up fairly early and change my mother and turn her. And then I go to the couch and watch FOX news. While doing this I am assessing the situation at home and whether my mother will be alright while I go to church for an hour.....maybe more.  Sometimes, it is all too easy for me to simply grab my Bible and read for the entire hour that I should be fellowshiping with other Christians.

  And sometimes, I go on to church. Either way, I don't feel that I have either appeased God or disappointed Him.  There are churches on every corner in my town and out in the county there are like 99 to 100 and counting. It's not a large county.  I would like nothing more than to get "plugged" into one of them and develop some kind of history. But as I grow older I find it more difficult. Every one that I have attended are VERY VERY concerned about getting them numbers up. Filling them pews. And I guess that ain't a bad thing as long as it's for the right reason. I often think that I'd make a much more loyal church member if I have never craked a Bible open or ever read the likes of AW Tozer, and many more of the late greats. I mean.....they set very very high standards (in my mind) that no one today can seem (in my mind) to come close to.  I'm not saying that this is bad or good.  It's just the way it is.  It just seems that church has become an institution. I'm not in a real jolly mood right now so I cannot add much more.  I DO realize that at times that I am hyper-critical (of churches in my area)  and often I am hypo-critical (in my personal walk).  But ya know.....there IS something to that scripture that says: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".  It keeps me talking and fellowshipping with God.  But, here lately, I have not been feeling very spiritual at all. I probably didn't have any business even commenting. Not sure why I did. But.....I did. And I guess I'll let it ride.

[chipped china]

It appears to me since Israel became a nation in 1948 that we could very well be in the end days and in the time of the Laodicean church. That's how I justify my attitude about organized church.  Sometimes I think I would have done better in biblical days when people met in homes and had to hide from the Pharisees. No, I'm too much of a wuss for that. I did have a small church I went to until the pastor had to quit because he was also working a full time job and it was too much for him. Then I started going to a new Baptist church with an older pastor who started churches. I learned the basics of doctrine and most of it rang true to me. But the pastor told me I shouldn't show my horses if I had to be gone on Sundays. I also had to take care of the nursery every 3rd week because it was so small. I've never had kids so I wasn't that comfortable taking care of them. I quit that church out of selfishness. I'm not looking real good here I confess. The church I attend sometimes now has a wonderful pastor, I do learn from him. They don't expect people to give unless they are members and they have all kinds of events and bible studies going on continually. As far as churches go it's a good one. I think it's just me being an introvert. I was still made by the Lord and I still have a ministry. I feel somewhat badly telling everyone this because I don't want it to seem boastful, but I just said goodbye to a homeless family I took in for 6 months. The husband was working for me changing my irrigation wheel line because of my knees and they got kicked out of the rooms they were renting. The wife had just had her third child by cesarean section and were living in their car. The Lord told me to take them in, it wasn't me. I never charged them rent and still paid the husband for his work. Sometimes it was really hard but we worked through the problems. You gotta remember I never had children and they had 3 under the age of 4. It wasn't me it the Lord through me that gave me patience and longsuffering lol.

 

Before 2010 my heart was for animals. I did dog rescue for about 5 years and literally helped save hundreds of dogs. I had 16 at my home one time. Then I went through a divorce (no wonder, ha) and had a spiritual awakening. The Lord has slowly turned me from animals to people. What a miracle! I don't think there is anything wrong in being an animal advocate, the Lord did make me from a little child with a heart for them but caring for humans is more important and I didn't use to think that way. Animals are so easy to be around, but there is nothing like feeling the Spirit of God with another human being.

 

I guess we are all different and have our own unique place the Lord makes for us. It's more of a question if we answer when He calls and Living in the favor of G.O.D. 

[Candice]

Darn!  I can't seem to get any more than a few "likes" in here.  So, please, no one, be offended when there's not a "like" by your post.

 

I agree with this Thinker.  I am grateful that the church we now attend has, for the most part, resisted the swing to worldly worship.  One church nearby actually advertised on the radio that their Easter service would have secular music!  Talk about filling seat mentality as Kevin says is so common among churches.  I would have to say that Christ ought to be object and subject of our worship music and preaching.  This is certainly getting less common as we all know. That's why we are all here too right?  We would like the deeper life discussed more "deeply".  Good thing.

 

Kenny, I like the analogy of the sea getting into the boat instead of the boat on the sea!  Do you see the analogy to us, as believers, being told to "go out", not to "bring in"?  I'm not opposed to inviting unsaved to church, but have seen so many just stay this way and, if the preaching and all else is lukewarm, well....it ought to be obvious what happens then.

 

Kevin, I like the idea of the church in the barn too.  We attended a church when we first came to Wyoming and in summer, the service was held at the park (to attract others) and there was the buffalo pasture right there!  The buffalo would come when the music played.  Of course, this did not last long because of summer thunderstorms, but we did get a few services outdoors. The tents were a pain!  The buffalo distracted me!

 

Betsy,  this is amazing that the young homeless family lived with you. I remember Lori sharing this and praying for you.  This is the Lord working through you and what a challenge with very young kids and animals and all to be cared for on top of your knee replacement!  Also, the fires!  I can truly relate to being more introverted and liking the small church setting, like a home church.  I've been to a couple of them and it is great.  If we did not have our son, we'd go to one here, a Calvary Chapel, with fewer than 20 people which I like. Unfortunately, our 16 year-old son likes the bigger church where his buddies are (or lack thereof). 

 

In the end, I agree with Chuck Missler (his Book of Revelation study is awesome) as his first several sessions cover the seven churches and he describes them in detail in a detailed, unique, but very biblical manner. I can't recommend this enough!   It seems like there are those churches here today (in America anyway).  The Church at Ephesus who has lost its first love.  The Laodecian Church (sp?), certainly the churches that really are not Christ's church any longer.  For example, there is one Congregational church that in this very old, beautiful building in town.  But, only a handful of people have attended for at least the past 10 years.  They have an openly homosexual pastor now.  Funny, all of the congregants are over 65!  They just won't give up the ghost.  It is absolutely amazing to me.  They won't abandon ship.  I think some of them are really seeking or maybe this is just the church their grandparents attended which is a very prevalent attitude here in Wyoming.  This is the church with the "comma" concept, meaning God is still speaking as is their motto on the sign outside of their church building.  I think they mean, God is editing what He once said!  They've edited the word; he's not changed His mind as He cannot.  The Episcopal Church here split because of the allowance of homosexual pastors, etc. within the denomination.  One group of folks left and formed an Anglican church with their young pastor who is opposed to the homosexual agenda.  Now, just after they established themselves recently, the Anglican church is going south and allowing homosexual marriage and homosexual pastors (very recent move).  I feel for that young Anglican pastor as he has a heart for the Lord and is striving to do what is righteous in God's sight.  Never would have imagined this would all be turning over so quickly. 

 

Thinker, maybe some of the churches (buildings and groups) ought to be abandoned.  In other cases, it is really a matter of the underground church where those that are still standing and so enormous are not part of the real church after all.  Not to say mega churches can't be true to the word, etc.  I just keep thinking about the churches who are really just home groups in China, Iran, Burma, Nepal, etc.  This is the church I want to see go underground here  It is going to happen anyway.  It is the church that I hope the Lord will see as faithful when He returns.

 

Love,

Candice

[Big John]

The following are some thoughts of what I think and believe. I will take no offense from anyone disagreeing with me.

Well, I hope this doesn't get me cast out but I have to disagree a bit with some of whats being said about some churches. While I do agree that, regardless of format, meaning traditional, rustic, contemporary or anything in between, most churches do not fulfill the role of a church these days. A church, in my mind, is to be the training ground, the armory, the hospital, etc for believers. And sure, sometimes people come there and get saved but leading people to the Lord is really the work of christians who can bring them to their church to be taught and trained in the ways of the Lord. Where the pastors and teachers and other elders can help to introduce them to Jesus in a meaningeful way. Churches who regularly have salvation messages are not teaching their people anything. I have attempted to attend many churches where once I got out of the service all I could say to my family was "Ichabod" (the glory of the Lord haas departed).

I think I have to share my experience a bit. I was saved at 7 years old. Attended my grandfathers church until I was 10. We had weekly prayer meetings in my house. My mom and dad had both been raised in what I will call relative holiness. I wasn't allowed to play loudly or with other kids on sunday. My parents always talked about how we were different and special compared to many others. We would have family pray and bible. I had a distinct calling from the Lord for missions at age 11. Thru my teen years I became more interested in God and just knew there was more. I would especially talk to my mom about stuff. I started going to church whenever there was anything going on whether my family did or not. My momwent to and told me about a bunch of charismatic meetings happening amongst the catholics. We lived in the subburbs of Pittsburgh and I started attending some of those meetings. I thought some of it was weird but there was definitely something of God going on there.

Went to college and hooked up with the christian fellowship we called Young Church. This was the early 70's in the heart of the Jesus movement. Some of these kids were really jacked up about Jesus, certainly freer than I was and we hung out all the time. Always sharing scripture and prayer meetings. Some of them went to a church in town so I went along one time. I was amazed and at that very first service I walked away with the sense that I had finally met someone who really wlaked their talk. I still have the journal where I recorded those words about 40 years ago.

We used to go down to this church anytime of day or night. The pastor would always open the door to anyone and would talk and share and read and teach scripture and preach and many times would be praying for kids with problems or drugs or booze. So there were only about 20 normal people and then about 25-30 college kids with the pastor 50+ years old. While going there a number of the kids would get inspired and want to play songs they felt the Lord gave them on guitars. That was a big departure but it happened. I remember that so often we sould have a sunday night service and all of us kids couldn't wait for the regular service to be over so we could start what I called the after service. After the regular people left we would stay with the pastor who would go up and paly organ and some would break out their guitars and one day a kid brought in a trap set and we would sing and praise and worship the Lord. It was really something.

Some of the kids were listening to this new contemporary christian music like Keith Green and Barry McGuire and 2nd Chapter of Acts. I have to admit that I wasn't too sure about all of that. At least at first. And then one week we had a group that the pastor had invited froma church on long island and I couldn't believe it!! It was simply awesome! It was modern sounding but it was all Jesus! Starting in 1976 we started, as a group attending the Jesus Festivals. They were only about 2 hours from where we were and have been going every year since. And we basically became workers there. Building, cleaning bathrooms, collecting garbage, clearing forest land, etc. A great many don't get into a lot of the music all the time but we support what is happening and have seen literally thousands of people come to the Lord.

All of that to say that I do believe that an awful lot of music in churches is not appropriate. But it has little to do with the style or speed or instruments. I have heard renditions of old hymns that were beautiful and I have heard them done by people who were dead and the songs sounded dead. I have heard loud music played by unsanctified hands that make it sound like a dirge. I have served as both a worship leader and a soloist and my children do as well to this day. My son plays electric guitar or bass and has become the worship band leader and my daughter is one of the worship singing leaders. They are IMHO wonderful. And I am not averse to the old hymns. My great-grandmother was a weslyan methodist circuit preacher for many years and wrote many poems that have been set to music. One in particular was called "Satisfied" and is on one of the Gaither albums. Also my grand father was good friends with George Beverly Shea and played some piano. I grew up listening to my parents doing duets in many churches.

Its not the music. Its the spirit of the music. Which is to say music offered in worship with clean hands and a clean heart.

Very willing to discuss this further with anyone who cares to.

[chipped china]

Thank you everyone for sharing testimony and stories about yourselves and what you experience. It's all good and I too believe it doesn't really matter what type of music as long as it's anointed by the Holy Spirit. I must admit I love the old hymns and Chris Rice. I wonder sometimes if the music is really filled with the HS as much as I think or if it's just the music being so beautiful on it's own. I believe I know the difference, I hope I do. I just downloaded 99 essential Christmas songs and some of the old classics open the gates of heaven to me. They also remind me of my childhood church. It was congregational and sadly they too have watered down scripture regarding homosexual behavior as acceptable. I believe that homosexuals are no worse than I am. I sin in others ways and need forgiveness just as much. It's just that God says homosexually is wrong and changing the laws is what upsets God the most.

 

Big John,

In the last few years I have often wished for a more spiritual childhood. There have been times when I had to ask for forgiveness because I was coveting what others had. We went to church and prayed at the dinner table. When I got older my mother would use the bible to point out I was acting like a slut etc. But without the love of God radiating the household, without biblical training, and living in the world I didn't understand. I'm not saying I had terrible childhood because it wasn't, and I'm so grateful to Jesus for being patient. I have a picture of Him on a craggy ledge reaching down to pick up one of his sheep to carry it home. I really relate to that old picture.

 

God bless everyone!