14 replies to this topic

[Candice]

I will throw this out there because I just read this statement from a news source and want to share as I find it interesting. I won't comment or give my opinion, but this is something that seems to keep cropping up, in various ways, as I read what mainstream Christians are saying. Of course, not all context is provided. I won't even say who is being quoted here....let's see if you can guess.  Not going on a bashing event.

In response to some questions, a famous person (Christian?) answered recently:
“You ask me if the God of the Christians forgives those who don’t believe and who don’t seek the faith. I start by saying – and this is the fundamental thing – that God’s mercy has no limits if you go to him with a sincere and contrite heart. The issue for those who do not believe in God is to obey their conscience [emphasis mine].

“Sin, even for those who have no faith, exists when people disobey their conscience.”

It seems there's always that one little bit that throws it off for me.  Any comments?

[Candice]

Oh, forgot this sentence:  "God forgives those who obey their conscience," he wrote.

[Kenny]

Candice

 

I'm glad you posted that. And BTW I know the source of the quote, so please allow me to ad that it doesn't come from a Protestant source. That should narrow it down for others.

 

Blessings

[Charles Miles]

OK, after watching this post for a few days and telling myself I would not comment, I now must say something here. I am not agreeing that the pope said this, but it has been attributed to him by another official of the Roman church. Having said that. let me say that anyone who has never heard of Christ or the gospel probably gets to rely on God`s mercy and the fact that God knows their heart. I just don`t have anything to say about these people except those of us who do believe should do all we can to get the word out.

Now, following one`s conscience as a means to salvation? Am I the judge? NO! But I do have some reasons for believing as I do. This "feel good" type religion that says it`s OK to believe anything you want as long as you are sincere, just does not make sense. Often what seems right to man just isn`t what God wants, is it? I`m sure Hitler and Stalin were sincere in their beliefs, but somehow I just don`t think their actions were pleasing to God. God`s mercy does indeed have no limit but neither does God`s justice have a limit. Once we have heard the gospel, know about Jesus, and what he did for us, I certainly think the situation changes for man. God gave us free will to either choose him or reject him, even though he loves us all, we will get what we choose! The story of Lasrus and the rich man tells the story of one such choice as well as the results. When we are born, like it or not, we are looking into eternity and we must make a choice to go with the creator who loves us and wants the very best for us, or go with the one who hates our guts and wishes us to die. God lets us choose! He will not make us spend eternity in a place we do not choose to go to. A man who wants to not associate himself with or believe in the goodness of God, would be unhappy in heaven....don`t you think? How about the wedding guest who got into the feast without the appropriate clothing? The clothing was free but he simply chose not to get it or wear it. How did that turn out? Jesus said that not everyone would enter the kingdom of heaven and since I believe that Christ does not lie, I simply can`t go along with the pope on this one.

I do think pope Frances is a wise man and he certainly has studied scripture many years longer than me, but quite possibly this was a PC statement.....I just don`t know. I would really enjoy listening to whoever said it explain where in the scripture they found the information. As far as salvation is concerned, there has been a road map written on how to get there and it is simple, free, and easy to follow. Without a map one might get there but it would certainly be more difficult, have more twists and turns, and arrival at the final destination could be risky. Throw the map away and tell God "I`ll do it on my own" because I know the way better than you? I just don`t think so! BUT.....and a big BUT.....I think I`ll let God be God and bring whomever he wishes to heaven in any way he wishes because he knows men`s hearts and I certainly do not. I just found a way for me and I used it.

In Christ`s love,

Charlie

[Kenny]

Charles Miles said

"I`m sure Hitler and Stalin were sincere in their beliefs, but somehow I just don`t think their actions were pleasing to God."

 

Charles 

 

Please allow me to ad this

 

But then, neither of them were Christian's even though atheists have ignorantly tried pawning Hitler off as a Christian.

 

Blessings

[Charles Miles]

Kenny,
Maybe I misunderstood the question then. I thought it was about those who don`t believe and don`t seek the faith, so the question then would be about non-believing, non-Christians.

[Kenny]

Kenny,
Maybe I misunderstood the question then. I thought it was about those who don`t believe and don`t seek the faith, so the question then would be about non-believing, non-Christians.

 

Charles

 

Since many people attempt to portray Hitler as a Christian, and since you made mention of him in your post, I was just clarifying that Hitler wasn't a Christian in order that no one would comer to think he was. 

 

Blessings

[Candice]

Please forgive me - I regret the post.  It isn't worthy of the controversy.

[Charles Miles]

Candice,

There is certainly no controversy at all, or I don`t think there is. Just a clarification of who we were talking about. For years, and some still today, try to say that Hitler was a Christian because he said he was during his rise to power. If we know a tree by its fruit then his claims seem a bit off base.

I was not planning on replying to the post at all, but when I found out who supposedly made the remark, well, I just had to say something. I run into this.... "Do whatever you want and believe whatever you want, and as long as you are sincere this will please God and you will be bound for heaven" religion more and more these days. Usually what I try to do is just smile and say that isn`t what I believe, and drop it at that unless someone asks me to tell them what I do believe. If the pope, leader of one of the largest Christian denominations, really did say this(some say he said it and some say an aide said it) then things have reached a critical point, IMHO. I won`t judge anyone or try to decide who has eternal life....that is left up to the Father, BUT some voice does need to be heard that says that this doctrine does not fit the usual pattern laid out for salvation in the Bible. If one does not believe in God(really, even satan believes in God), knows about Jesus but refuses to accept his sacrifice for them, and then wants nothing to do with God at all, how can one then rely upon God`s mercy to save them??? Again, this may be in some way, the fault of some in the Church who complicate the plan of salvation to make it too complicated and hard to understand, but probably not. Man, left on his own, is a sinner doomed to hell. He goes to hell not for what he does, but for what he is. Without Jesus, man remains what he is and nothing he can do will make him good enough, clean enough, righteous enough, or in any way fit for the association with God the Father. Unless we are made into something we are no at birth, we cannot boldly approach the throne of God nor have the advocacy of Jesus....and I believe without these things we just have a definite problem......an eternal problem that is unsolvable without the blood of Jesus even if you are the most conscience following person, nicest person, or whatever. Man just can`t do this on his own, no matter what he does or how good he is. All the good man does without the love of God within him is meaningless, although he might feel good about himself for a bit.

Please forgive my rant here Candice, and believe me when I say there is no controversy(I don`t think) on anything but who Hitler said he was. Maybe he was a poor example to use, and if so, I am sorry. When I read statements such as the one from the Roman leadership, it`s as if I am seeing a man walking toward the edge of a cliff and I just must shout a warning. This is even more disturbing if the man is a leader and he is calling a large group of people to follow him.

In Christ`s love,

Charlie

[Kevin Blankenship]

Read the old Fundamentalists. They are dead now. But read them.  The Gospel that they preached was simple. And they also had alot to say about the Papists. (outdated  moniker for the Roman Catholic church).  Me? I believe that it is quite possible for most, but the most extreme flaky,  denominations to have a core of truly redeemed, twice born, persons in them. Whether they make the sign of the cross on the bosom, or not. I'm not anti-Roman Catholic.  I just couldn't be one after being a student of the Bible for several years. But then.....they likely would/could say the same about me.

  But back on topic.  Jesus says.....if a man climbs in by any other way but by the GATE....which is Jesus.....he is a theif and robber. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

  Disclaimer: I ain't a Roman Catholic hater. If your a Roman Catholic (someone who might be reading this), and if you havesurrendered your will for God's, laid down your life for Christ's, .......we'll very likely spend eternity together. And you can go on making the sign of the cross all you want. And I won't secretly scoff and say "Look at THAT non-sense!".

   But again....the Christian authors/preachers of long gone days.... spared no punches. (chuckling).  (Was I even on topic at all?...LOL....I am as flaky as a loony toon this morning.)   God Bless each of you, though.
 

[Candice]

I know that there is controversy in Hitler's supposed religious beliefs.  Good book to read is Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy by Eric Metaxas.  This book is a great, but lengthy read.

 

I believe I don't even know the intention of all  of my posts; certainly not this one.  So, motive is important.  However, I just happened to click on a link to the Catholic Church site where this was found.  Just another counterfeit bill being passed along to RCs and others who are vulnerable.

 

I guess it's like a counterfeit dollar bill.  You need to know the real thin -- not the fake.  So, who really cares what the pope or his representative wrote except that I have a couple of acquaintances who I witness to who are Catholic and are very, very close to the Pope with pictures on their walls, and enmeshed in all manner of papal stuff around them.  My mom used to be like this and then attend say-on-ses (sp?) (conjuring up the dead), gave my sister a wee-gee board (don't know how to spell that either).    Don't even know how to spell em!  Don't want to know how to spell it!

 

I do not have the Book of Life in my possession and only Jesus is worth to see inside and know who's in there) If you have Catholic friends or family, saved or unsaved (let Almighty God judge), this can come up at some point.  This is something that was recently stated by Rome that we may face in conversation at some point. So, I guess my thoughts are - know the "real thing", the true Gospel and how to share, in order to " give an explanation for the hope that is in you" which counters this new statement from "on high". 

 

I have one acquaintance who is Catholic who says she will go to heaven by doing good deeds.  Over time, I've asked her "then, why did God send His perfect Self in His Son to die on the cross as a sacrifice for sin and resurrect so that we may have eternal life", and "how many good deeds will be enough?"  These questions kept her thinking and she honestly had no answer and said "good questions".  I haven't seen her in a few months, but this kind of thing does come up, more often than I'd like to think.  My husband's family are all Catholic (sort of) and this will definitely be something in conversation.

 

Look, I was raised RC and can complain if I want to.   I just don't have to post it and, for that, I do repent as is not worthy of Christ and not really necessary in posting.  I really don't want to start problems, make anyone stumble or to cause problems which this post could do.  Sometimes, I just don't seek God's best, and His perfect motives and purposes aren't tied up in this.

[Julie Daube]

Candice, I don't think you started problems or caused any controversies at all. You simply asked for feedback about a topic that is very likely to come up in conversations that many of us will have at some point as we seek to win lost people to Christ. Anyone who consistently shares Jesus with lost people is bound to encounter a statement about obeying one's conscience. It's good to be equipped in how to respond to such statements, so you absolutely did the right thing by soliciting the opinions of your fellow believers. This is exactly how the Body of Christ is supposed to work. "As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another." - Proverbs 27:17. Thanks for starting such a thought-provoking thread! 

[Charles Miles]

Today is Tues 9/24/13 and as I listen to the news early this morning, there are continuing reports of the muslim attack on the mall in Kenya. Muslims are executing anyone who does not prove they are muslim or will not convert to islam on the spot. Called "conversion by the sword", this has been a tactic of islam since about 700 AD, and obviously is still being used by this "religion of peace". Two suicide bombers walked into a christian church in Pakistan Sunday and blew themselves up, along with 80-100 church members.My evangelist friend has preached in that church). Now, these people who murder and kill in the name of their god, I`m certain they are following their conscience because they either killed themselves or expect to be killed by authorities. When someone tells me that their god and my Heavenly Father are the same, I get nauseaed and sick! My God does not ask me to go murder innocent people just because they are not christan or because they will not convert to christanity. BUT, whoever wrote that talk about following one`s conscience and being sincere about your belief system, as a way to salvation, must think these murderers are doing OK. I cannot bring myself to believe such doctrine and do find it very, very difficult to forgive these evildoers, even though Jesus said I should. I will pray for that kind of faith all day today. Gen Shartzkoff(sp) once said that he felt that forgiveness of that magnitude was best left to their god, and the general`s job was to arrainge the meeting for them. Harsh words but probably where all this is going.

May God protect his children and bless them,

Charlie

[drcat2006]

Maybe this is off topic and I'm misunderstanding what's being said.  I had a conversation with a friend the other day on how to get to heaven -- I never mentioned hell. I told her tactfully that Jesus was the only way. She told me that she couldn't believe that she was going to hell b/c she didn't believe in Jesus, and that God was in each of us -- a touch pantheism.   How sad.

 

CLC.

[Charles Miles]

drcat,

 

Your statement is so true and just may be one of satan`s best efforts to keep people out of the kingdom.  I am confused when someone tells me that they believe in heaven and hell, but then tell me thay don`t believe in the Lord!  " I just don`t believe in all that spiritual stuff" because they "can`t prove it".  Then they will usually follow up with, "A just God would never send a good person to hell.  That just wouldn`t be right".  An offer to sit down with them and discuss all the things they just said usually is declined, but I try my best to start some sort of dialog with them because they have obviously benn thinking about who they are and where they are going.  Admittedly the discussion starts out with an uneasiness when it becomes obvious that no one is "good enough" to merit even a barganing position with God, until the person starts to understand the legal and hopeless situation in which man finds himself unless he has a mediator.  A few will listen, most do not want to even go there.

A relationship with our Father is free for us, but it was not free for Him.  All who accept the sacrifice of Jesus for their sin have done all that any man can do to step into a relationship with God and all that is needed is to trust that God will do what He said He would do.  God does love us more than we can ever imagine, but He will allow us to choose what we want as well as where we want to spend eternity.  I wonder about having God in each and all of us if we then choose to deny His Son and want nothing to do with God or what He wants for us.  Sounds like that "house divided" that Jesus spoke about.

 

Here`s praying that the person of whom you spoke will return and ask you to discuss the situation with her/him.

 

In Christ`s love,

 

Charlie