16 replies to this topic

[Candice]

There is no neutral territory to stand on. I'd like to add the qualifier words to the end of that sentence "any longer". That's a lie because there NEVER was neutral ground here. We are either for the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, or we are against all three (Him).

We must bind the strong man first. I keep praying for salvation for various unbelievers as they are in my family, acquaintances, and others as I'm asked. This is a newfound revelation for me. It ought not be, but it is. Read the verses many times in this chapter, considered them, but really never found this to be what is revealed. I only applied it to demon-possessed in the past. But doesn't it apply to all unsaved and first having to bind Satan. God is too much of a gentleman to force salvation on anyone unwilling or bound.

Question: Is it possible to really ask God to save if the "strong man" has not been bound? Discuss at God's leading.

[Candice]

Refer to scripture Matthew 12:29 (also before and after for context)

[Lori Smith]

Michael Wilkins (“Matthew: NIV Application Commentary”) writes, “Jesus first defends his ministry of exorcism with two short parables, then He follows it with two scathing denunciations of the Pharisees (12:30-37). (1) The power behind exorcism could come from either God or Satan. Since the Pharisees have already concluded that Jesus is not God’s agent (cf. 12:14) they cite the source of His power as Satan. They assume that since a demon has come out of the man, it must be evidence that the demon is obeying Satan as a ruler of demons. But Jesus shows the illogical nature of their thinking (12:25-26). If Satan wants to maintain rulership of this world, he would not work against himself by exorcising a demon that had control of a person. That would be counteracting his own attempt to maintain control of this world. The only logical conclusion is that if the man had been liberated from a demon, healed of blindness, and enabled to speak, it indicates that the source of Jesus’ power is God in His battle against Satan’s kingdom.”

I know that you wish to move the discussion away from exorcism to the subject of salvation, but I believe the above reveals an important point—the existence of two opposing kingdoms. We live in the already, not yet system. It is where Jesus has overthrown the power of the evil one and has allowed—those who desire—to enter God’s kingdom while we live on earth. However, those who do so, much sever ties with Satan’s kingdom. We can’t walk in both kingdoms.

What I’m trying to say is that this world is still very much in the hands of the devil. However, when a man makes a decision for Christ, he renounces all ties to earth and he is “transferred from darkness to light,” from the kingdom of Satan to God’s kingdom (Col 1:13).

How then do we apply the binding of the strong man? Well, Jesus has overcome the devil; however, those who are unsaved are still under the devil’s power. Those who choose Jesus, must then repent (be willing to sever ties with the world), and forsake his life and past and choose Jesus and God’s kingdom.

How can man make this choice? Do we need to help overpower the enemy? Yes, through prayer and through witnessing we help overcome the strong man. Here we can argue about predestination etc, but I think it’s unnecessary. What we must do is assume that God has chosen our loved ones and act accordingly. Pray for Satan’s power to be overthrown in the lives of lost loved ones. In addition, we present the power of the gospel which holds God’s power within it. Indeed, the anointing of the Holy Spirit within the Word of God can break the power of the enemy.

[Lori Smith]

Writes John Stott, “How then shall we enter into Christ’s victory and overthrow the devil’s power? Let Luther answer our question: ein wörtlein will ihn fallen (one little word will knock him down). There is power in the Word of God and in the preaching of the gospel."

[Merilyn Lauffer]

I am not quite sure where this conversation originated. I feel as if the original post that I am seeing was posted halfway into a thought. Nevertheless, as believers we have been given authority. We also have various tools or weapons at our disposal. I think it depends on the situation and we need to be sensitive and discerning. Sometimes the unbeliever is so entangled with sin or influenced by strongholds in his life that spiritual warfare like approach is merited.

A very good read is the Authority of the believer by John MacMillan

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http://www.christian...660832/pd/60836

[Candice]

.....I feel as if the original post that I am seeing was posted halfway into a thought. Nevertheless, as believers we have been given authority. We also have various tools or weapons at our disposal. I think it depends on the situation and we need to be sensitive and discerning. Sometimes the unbeliever is so entangled with sin or influenced by strongholds in his life that spiritual warfare like approach is merited.

Merilyn,
You are correct. You caught me in the middle of a thought, and I should have taken more time to concisely and clearly state my questions.
I was reading a commentary by Chuck Smith. I am praying as the LORD leads in specific ways to pray for unsaved family and others. I am not led at all to pray "save so and so". But, I wait on the LORD to find how the Spirit would intercede specifically because, quite honestly, I am a newcomer to praying this way. So, in doing so, I considered something I read by Chuck Smith, which says:

"What think ye of Christ, whose Son is He? That's basically the question. He doesn't leave you some little neutral corner here in which to stand, well, I really don't know that I have made a firm decision. Well, no decision is a decision. No decision is a "no" decision. "He that is not for me," He said, "is against me." You can't be neutral concerning Christ. He is too radical. He doesn't allow you any neutrality. You are for Him, or you are against Him. If you are not for Him, you are against Him. You cannot take a place of neutrality in regards to Jesus Christ; if you're not gathering, than your scattering."

I suppose getting past neutrality (or what we call neutrality) is key in witnessing. My sister is "neutral" and doesn't reject or "accept" Christ as Savior. But, I am saying, Chuck is saying and Christ is saying is that there is no neutrality. This is strong deception IMHO. Since this is so, it is a spiritual battleground. My own son is "neutral". So, I believe Satan has a hold of many on this ground of neutrality.

I agree with your response. I believe we have authority, but on a case-by-case basis. Without praying and getting the green light, so to speak, we can cause more harm than good when an unbeliever claims "neutrality" on the issue of salvation. This is why, I believe, we need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to direct us in witnessing as in sharing the Gospel with someone. That neutrality is anything but.

I suppose one could argue that simply learning the Way of the Master (Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort) and other programs to lead others to Christ, this would make everything crystal clear. I just am not convinced. I've done their training. OK, good tools, but the Spirit must draw. I don't know who He draws. I'm just to be an open vessel -- even in the face of neutrality.

Hope this is clearer. I am convicted to spend less time posting and more time PRAYING!

Blessings,
Candice

[Candice]

One more thing..

I have a neighbor down the road who is strongly into Hinduism, Wicca and other New Age stuff. She LIVES this....not dabbling. This stronghold would certainly mean that any witnessing would need to include removing demonic strongholds. No neutrality here. A pastor I know said she's a lost cause. I say God's arm is not too short to reach anyone - but I know that demonic entities are all around her. So, doesn't the strong man need to be bound here first?

[Lori Smith]

Candice,

My son is firmly in the unbeliever camp. It's a shame because he stated he was a believer at one time. I pray for him, and the Lord has given me the promise that he will go to heaven. I'm not sure if he was ever saved or not. Only God knows his heart.

Well, I approach him in ways similar to what you've stated. I pray for him and look for openings. When he came to visit recently, we went to a museum. The museum had a Leonardo Da Vinci exhibit. One of the exhibits was about batteries. I said to my son as we were standing there, "God was speaking to me about batteries this morning, but I'm not sure exactly what He was trying to tell me." My son just ignored me. But, when he went to start his car to make the journey home, his battery was dead. We spent some time jumping it! I said, "I told you God talks to me!" He said, "You're right."

Well God has a way of getting people's attention when we pray. Plus, He has a sense of humor!

[ADVRider]

One more thing..

I have a neighbor down the road who is strongly into Hinduism, Wicca and other New Age stuff. She LIVES this....not dabbling...So, doesn't the strong man need to be bound here first?

Quite possibly, in the literal sense of the context of the passage you quoted. Many people are demonized and do not know it, even in the west. I had a childhood friend years ago, who through the open doors of heavy drug use, was demonized. They manifested when he decided to "go forward" to receive Christ. And his deliverance was a process whereby he had to actively renounce his past. In any deliverance, the person has to want to be delivered, including salvation. So, I agree there is no neutral place, but the unbeliever does not understand this because they are in darkness spiritually. I think part of bringing the unbeliever to the light is the work of the Holy Spirit to as you say, draw them to Christ. I recently was at a church with a group that was doing ministry and a lady came to the group after the meeting for prayer and my friend discerned she really did not want to be set free, or was not willing to renounce the strongholds in her life. As cold as it sounds, he would not pray over her because he knew she did not mean business. So, Candice, this discernment is critical because as you suggested, there can be more harm done than good. If you notice in the Gospels, Jesus did not chase people down. When he discerned the spiritual state of certain people recorded in the Bible, sometimes He just commented on it and that was the end ot it. We have to know when to light the fire so to speak.

[ADVRider]

Candice,

My son is firmly in the unbeliever camp. It's a shame because he stated he was a believer at one time. I pray for him, and the Lord has given me the promise that he will go to heaven. I'm not sure if he was ever saved or not. Only God knows his heart.

Well, I approach him in ways similar to what you've stated. I pray for him and look for openings. When he came to visit recently, we went to a museum. The museum had a Leonardo Da Vinci exhibit. One of the exhibits was about batteries. I said to my son as we were standing there, "God was speaking to me about batteries this morning, but I'm not sure exactly what He was trying to tell me." My son just ignored me. But, when he went to start his car to make the journey home, his battery was dead. We spent some time jumping it! I said, "I told you God talks to me!" He said, "You're right."

Well God has a way of getting people's attention when we pray. Plus, He has a sense of humor!

Now this is a good story!

[Candice]

Lori, I hear what you're saying about your son - in full agreement. I heard the%2

[ADVRider]

One more thing..

I have a neighbor down the road who is strongly into Hinduism, Wicca and other New Age stuff. She LIVES this....not dabbling. This stronghold would certainly mean that any witnessing would need to include removing demonic strongholds. No neutrality here. A pastor I know said she's a lost cause. I say God's arm is not too short to reach anyone - but I know that demonic entities are all around her. So, doesn't the strong man need to be bound here first?

Candice,

In regard to your neighbor, I think this pastor might be seeing it through his own lens so to speak. This lady can be saved. But the pastor cannot save her. Only by the power of God influencing and intervening in her life can she be transformed, just like anybody else. We need to love and pray for these, and then God has to do the rest.

[Merilyn Lauffer]

If the son set you free you are free indeed. But! you have to acknowledge Him as THE way to true freedom. We dealt with a woman in Israel years ago. She hated her mess and wanted to be free by Jesus, or by any means. She suffered years before she recognized that He was the only way.

Sometimes people like their strongholds. They are comfortable, even crutches. We can bind the strong man and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth. But if they recognize truth and reject it, it is their call. We can pray and use the tools we are given, but there is no magical formula to make people into believers. God has created us with a free will. But we can take authority over obstacles that are in the way.

Candice, pray for that neighbor that the Holy Spirit will reveal truth to her.

[Kenny]

God is too much of a gentleman to force salvation on anyone unwilling or bound.

Yes Candice

And yet Scripture says; "they are without excuse" Romans 1:20

[radar]

How many have actually seen the strong man bound and cast from an individual?

[Candice]

Never have seen this. Don't really want to see this. I believe the Lord would only have me pray against it. I'd only go as far as to say "May the LORD rebuke you" ss the angel said in Zech. 3 (?) This is enemy camp. Sensitive to that right now. But praying is absolutely the main thing "IMHO" regardless. Maybe this not sound so "H", but is mean to be so

[Candice]

sorry for typos; it's late.