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Growing in the Lord


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#1 Travis Richey

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:53 AM

I've oft heard it said that what does not kill you makes you stronger. So, I've been doing the exercise thing since early this year, trying to get this 57 year old body into some kind of shape, and I've found myself rewording this quote to say, "What doesn't make you stronger kills you." Jokingly of course, as it pertains to exercise, but this morning, as I finished up my first attempt at doing a road run, I was thinking of it in other terms...spiritual terms. If we aren't growing in the Lord, we are shrinking, waning in our walk. If our faith is not becoming stronger, we are becoming stagnant or weaker. In fact, it would be true, that if we are not growing and strengthening in the Lord, we are in danger of spiritually dying.
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#2 Kenny

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 06:59 AM

In fact, it would be true, that if we are not growing and strengthening in the Lord, we are in danger of spiritually dying.


Is complete spiritual death a possibility?

#3 Lori Smith

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:13 AM

I appreciate this discussion because I've had to breathe lots of spiritual poison lately, and although I may not have died spiritually, I certainly haven't been healthy. The toxicity has mostly come from seminary, and the forced pressure that I have to accept some things that wound my conscience. I'm finally coming out of it because I am throwing off the guilt of political correctness to say, "no, I don't have to accept new cultural mandates that are unbiblical.

So, I guess I've been in a stagnant, polluted pond. I read this article about the dung gate. The dung gate is where they took all of the waste out of the city. As Christians, we constantly need to rid ourselves of pollution or we won't be able to walk with God properly. Well, if we place ourselves in too toxic an environment, this can become impossible. The Lord gave me an example where a city hooked up the water supply to the sewage treatment system by mistake. Instead of pure water, people were receiving sewage into their homes. That would be too much to overcome! This would be a parable of the "sewer."
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In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#4 Candice

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 07:21 AM

Great topic. I, personally, can only ask: how far do we stray to be spiritually dead? Were we ever spiritually alive if we think we are mow "dead"? More later after reading and praying. I have my own concerns over this with my niece and others right now, and dealt with this myself spiritually in the past.


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#5 radar

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:00 PM

Lori, I like that parable of the "sewer!" I like to think of the parable of The Prodigal Son. I am sure everyone here is familiar with the story. In Luke 15:24 it states " For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate." This was after the son left his father's house and decided to beg forgiveness and return a servant. Jesus was making a point in comparing a believer who falls away and leaves the Heavenly Father and repents and is restored to eternal life. This is by the statement "dead but alive again." The son was once alive but was dead to his father when he left. Now he is restored and alive again. In verse 32 the term "dead and alive again and was lost and is found" is emphasized again. I think this answers Kenny's question of is a complete spiritual death possible for a believer in light of Travis's quote.

All of us started out spiritually dead. Eph 2:1 "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins," This was because of our fallen nature when Adam fell. God warned Adam and Eve that they would surely die if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:16-17). Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous, but lived in the danger of spiritual death. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwards to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). That brings me to this question if anyone could help me here. Are Adam and Eve restored to eternal salvation?

Candice, I think that when we walk away from God we are then spiritually dead. I don't think I would be too worried about being spiritually dead if I had come to know the truth and knowingly walked away from it. Since you stated "were we" I am taking it as one believer to another. There are many who are deceived and playing "church" who think they have a personal relationship with Jesus but are deceived and are spiritually dead. That would concern me greatly if I were one like that. I did find a good article online about the five signs you that you are spiritually dead. http://pastormark.tv...piritually-dead

Shalom,
Radar
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"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."


#6 Candice

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:33 PM

After the whirlwind of spiritual confusion, I'm saying I'm staying safe to stick with questions on scripture...

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin [which does] not [lead] to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not [leading] to death. There is sin [leading] to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not [leading] to death." 1 John 5:16-17.

This has always been a bit confusing, and without going to commentary...

First I ask, who is "his brother"? Is this a spiritual brother (as in the brethren), any brother/sister of humanity?
Second, I ask, what is the sin leading to death?

These verses have reminded me of the Catholic belief in venial and mortal sins. But, I won't go into all of that detail. It's not true anyway.

Here's a commentary from Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel (I believe this is just the text from one of his sermons):

"There are sins that are not unto death. There are sins that we commit. The word sins means "missing the mark." And a lot of people miss the mark. In fact, we have all missed the mark. We are told that in the first chapter. And if we say that we haven't missed the mark, then you are only deceiving yourself and the truth isn't in you. We've all missed the mark, and if you see a brother missing the mark, he is sinning, but it's not unto death. What is the deadly sin? The rejection of Jesus Christ, that's the sin unto death. When a man turns his back deliberately and willfully upon Jesus Christ, that's the sin unto death. And John said,

I don't say for you to pray for that (1Jo 5:16).

You see, that's a line that God won't cross. God won't cross your free will. He has given you the power of choice and then He honors it. He won't cross your free will and He won't save you against your will. You don't have to worry. God's not going to force you to be saved; God's not going to force you to be with Him in heaven. If you don't want to be with God, then He doesn't want to make you miserable. "You don't have to be with Me." But you have chosen your own misery; God didn't make you miserable, you made yourself miserable.

So when a brother is sinning, we should pray for them. Now, quite often they cannot see their own error, Satan is very deceptive and he comes as a angel of light to deceive. He brings a strong delusion that man might believe a lie rather than the truth. And I could write his script, I've heard it enough times. "Well, my wife never understood me, and I never really did love her. I know I married her, but I never did love her. But this woman, she understands me. We have a communication. Ours is special, you know. And she's so spiritual, and we feel so close to God when we are with each other." I could write this stupid script. Satan's lies. And so you see a brother taken in a sin, a fault, a sin not unto death, pray for him, because Satan has blinded his eyes; he can't see what he is doing himself. He is deceived, pray for him. Pray that God will open his eyes and cause him to see the deception that Satan has pulled over his eyes. Pray that God will set him free from the blinding power of the enemy that has distorted his true sense of values. That God might give him life, and cause him to see and deliver him.

But if a person deliberately and willfully turns his back and rejects Jesus Christ, then pray also for him, but not, "God, save him." Because God won't save him against his will. Pray that God will bind Satan's power and work, and God will open his heart to the truth. You can't really say, "God, save him," because that's something God won't do against a person's will. So,

There is a sin unto death: I do not say that you should pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death (1Jo 5:16-17).

A lot of things we do that are wrong, but they're not going to damn your soul eternally. And I disagree with that kind of preaching that gets on these little issues and hangs you over the pit and tells you that you are going to hell. And, "You'll wish you had listened to me when you are kicking coals in hell," and this kind of stuff. I don't believe in that. I believe in the grace of God, and I think that there is only one sin that can damn your soul, and that's the rejection of God's love in Jesus Christ. That's the sin unto death. And God is so gracious and merciful, and there is a sin that's not unto death.

We know that whosoever is born of God doesn't practice sin (1Jo 5:18);

Because I have a new nature.

Paul said, "How can we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?" That old nature is dead, so I cannot practice sin. I know that whosoever that is really born of God, born again, can't practice sin. Now, we may sin, but you know what? You're going to find out something very interesting. Once you're born again you can't get away with your sin. You may have been very good at getting away with sin in the past. You know, before you were born again, you may have cheated and gotten by with it, but once you are born again, God won't let you get by with it. He will nail you every time. That's because He loves you, and He knows it wouldn't be good for you to get by with it. So God will see that it is exposed. Hey, if you're getting by with it, better look out, could be you're not born again. You know, "Whom the Lord loveth, He chasteneth, and scourges every son He receives" (Hebrews 12:6). That means He doesn't let you get by with it. So "We know that whosoever is born of God does not practice sin,"

but he that is begotten of God (1Jo 5:18)

Who is it that was begotten of God? Jesus Christ. And so, you should correct the capitalization here: "He that is begotten of God," He should be capitalized.

He that is begotten of God keepeth him, and the wicked one toucheth him not (1Jo 5:18).

I am kept by the power of Jesus Christ. He, Jesus, who is begotten of God, keeps me, and the wicked one touches me not.

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world is lying in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. And this is the true God, and eternal life (1Jo 5:19-20).

So he now closes out with, "We know, we know, we know, we know that whoever is born of God does not practice sin. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in wickedness. We know that the Son of God has come and given us the understanding that we may know the truth."

The word know is the word ginosko, and that is, we know by experience the truth. We have experienced now that which is true. That we are in Him who is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

And then the final exhortation,

Little children, keep yourself from idols (1Jo 5:21."

Personally, I don't believe we die spiritually if we have lapses of "spirituality", i.e., not reading the word or praying for a couple of weeks. No, that's quenching or grieving the Spirit. And, that is painful to the Lord and, ultimately, to us. No that death is somehow much more like dying not quenching or grieving the Spirit. That, in my own opinion, would be blasphemy - the unpardonable sin, that leads to death. HOWEVER, I believe that one can "feel" dead (not truth) if we've strayed from fellowship with God. But this is not spiritual death - just a way to be drawn back when we miss our Father. Like a child is still a child of mine whether he communicates with me while I live in Wyoming and he lives in NYC. I'm still his mother and he's still my child. He may eventually miss me after some time of no communication with me, but it does not change the facts. He may experience troubles as a result of not communicating with me, but he is still my child.

Third question...does this mean we don't pray for the unsaved? Especially if the word "brother" only refers to the saved in which we pray for?

Anyone disagree or have (I'm sure you can explain better than I) a more understandable explanation?
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#7 Lori Smith

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 02:05 PM

Candice,

Very good. That's the best explanation I've heard regarding "the sin leading to death." I also agree with you about "feeling" dead, but not actually being dead.
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In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#8 Candice

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 11:43 AM

These verses also come to MIND:

James 1:14-16 tells us, “but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

Our death is personally experienced in the mind - perhaps the seat if origin.

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#9 Kenny

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:58 PM

Great topic. I, personally, can only ask: how far do we stray to be spiritually dead?


Good question

I think of us Christian's as being in a boat on a river. This river has a current which naturally carries us downstream towards a very high water falls. If we just sit in the boat and are complacent we will DRIFT down stream over the falls and perish. But if we put our oars in the water and row upstream or to shore we can avoid being swept over the water falls.

Heb 2:1 - We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not DRIFT away. (NIV)
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#10 Travis Richey

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:09 PM

Perhaps my final line should have read, "in danger of spiritually dying, if that were possible." For it was not my intent to head into a discussion of eternal salvation versus falling away, for that debate is long, and from what I've seen and heard over the years, unwinnable by either side. My intent, and I believe it is valid no matter if you are of a Reformed or Armenian persuasion, is that our focus should be on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We should awaken aware of Him and His Love for us, we should begin our day in the conversations of prayer, thanksgiving, and praise...and we should live and end our day the same way. We should be in Love with the Lord, because He first Loved us. We should he hungry and thirsty for Him, and desire more than anything else to know Him better, to be united with Him in Spirit. Jesus says time and time again in John chapters 13-17 that we should be drawn into unity with...oneness with...both He and the Father.

If my desire...moment by moment, day by day....is to draw closer and closer to God and Jesus...then I don't have to worry about falling away, or if I'm really saved, or if my salvation is eternal or not. If I desire Christ above all else...if I count everything else as rubbish in comparison to Him....then I have no worries, no fears, no doubts. If my faith is built on nothing less than Jesus' Blood and Righteousness, than I am standing on the Solid Rock, and not on the shifting sands of this world.

In Romans 10, Paul writes, "“The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." That "word:" that is near you, and in your mouth, and in your heart, is Jesus (John 1). Oneness with our Lord is our salvation, our faith...our all.
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#11 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:01 AM

And like Paul says in Gal 5:6: 6 For when we are in union with Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor the lack of it makes any difference at all; what matters is faith that works through love.
Travis, I think that the Spirit which speaks through your last reply, and that seeks to make us one, rather than divide us, (not that your intention was that in your first post at all), is fully in line with Jesus's desire that we be one, even as Jesus and the Father are one ....in accordance with Jesus's prayer in the gospel of John 17 which reads:
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Great post Travis.
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#12 Kenny

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 08:00 AM

no matter if you are of a Reformed or Armenian persuasion, is that our focus should be on our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If my desire...moment by moment, day by day....is to draw closer and closer to God and Jesus...then I don't have to worry about falling away, or if I'm really saved,


Travis

I agree that you will have security in the Lord if you indeed do follow that game plan, however my deeper concern is over believers who are not daily following such a plan. There are believers who are backslidding and drifting away who are of the mind that there is no danger in doing so. I think the watered down and sugar-coated teaching of easy believism and eternal security may be responsible for the shallow lives many Christian's are living, and could be putting many believers at risk. IMHO

Blessings
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#13 Candice

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:00 AM

Travis

I agree that you will have security in the Lord if you indeed do follow that game plan, however my deeper concern is over believers who are not daily following such a plan. There are believers who are backslidding and drifting away who are of the mind that there is no danger in doing so. I think the watered down and sugar-coated teaching of easy believism and eternal security may be responsible for the shallow lives many Christian's are living, and could be putting many believers at risk. IMHO

Blessings

I definitely agree Kenny! This is absolutely more often the case than not IMHO. I just got back from Texas - Bible Belt Country. OK - I guess I see why my sister rejects based on the superficial mega-church phenomena down there that is scandal-ridden, cheap and superficial. All I can say to my sisters negative comments is "yes, you're right. But, that's not Christ. Let's talk about Christ."

Backsliding is the predominant theme all around IMHO.

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#14 Charles Miles

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 11:04 AM

I wrote a comment about this thread about 5 min ago and somehow it poofed! All this electronic messaging still confuses me at times. Let`s try again, but if you get a half written post later....welllll.

No one knows the Father but the Son, but we do know many of God`s attributes as He has told them to us. Eternal, omnipotent, omnisient, righteous, just, holy, truth, grace, immutable, and many others....but we might concern ourselves with just a few here. God will always keep his promise, no matter to whom it is made. When we accept Christ`s work done for us, we have eternal life, and this is God`s gift to those who accept His offer. Unmerited, unearned, free, and unconditional....and He didn`t have to do that for us at all. BUT he DID. God loves us more than we can ever imagine or consider. Christ died for all sin for all time...once for all and all we have to do is to accept that and speak it out with faith. Once we are in this place(God`s righteousness through Christ Jesus), who can separate us from God`s love? Romans 8 tells us that no one or no thing can do that. We may lose favor or not enjoy the kingdom life, but I certainly believe anyone who evr believed in their heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and spoke with their mouth that fact.....is given what God said he would give.....eternal life and a place in His family. Sons/daughters of God, brothers/sisters with Christ and co-heirs of the kingdom and all that it holds.
Can one refuse, turn away, reject God`s offer after recieving it through faith? Here things get a bit hazy, but there is that sin of grieving Holy Spirit that cannot be pardoned. As I understand that one, a person would have to knowingly, with premeditation, with full knowledge, stand before God and refuse His gift of salvation, and I cannot fathom anyone doing that who has ever experienced God`s love and understands what all God has done for us. Maybe they never understood at all, but that one will have to be left to God and his eternal wisdom, omnisience, omnipotence, and justice. I don`t see how a christian, a person with a relationship with God, could possibly lose salvation by sin that has already been forgiven. Backsliding is bad, but we all do it to some degree or another, even though we try not to. All we need to do is turn all that over to God, work as hard as possible to be what He would have us be, an ..."love one another even as I have loved you". Once in the Father`s hand, none will be lost, no not even one. Sin can make the child of God miserable, but not cost him his salvation....if he has already allowed God to take him in His hand. I think the "game plan" is simple...trust that God will do whatever He said He would do for those He said He would do it. That would mean we don`t need a bunch of lists on do`s and don`ts. Holy Spirit will convict us of what He needs to if we keep our relationship with God. That is what I define as faith.

Sorry for the long post....

In Christ`s love,

Charlie
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#15 elizabethcog

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:03 PM

On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand!I too used to get so bogged down by everyones opinions and tried to please all,I almost drove myself insane when I just realized I was imprisoning myself all over again and again,Jesus died for our freedom in Him and loosed those chains of bondage why should I keep picking them back up and fastening myself to them,of course this is an ongoing growing process and our God is so patient to help us accept the freedom we can only have in Him,Praise God!
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Jesus and Jesus alone saves=D

#16 Candice

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 04:36 PM

For some reason, especially today, I feel I am struggling to communicate. Not trying to make a point, but all of this matters to God and grieves the Spirit...

Matthew 24:12-14 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Is it yet impossible to ask why are there so many people who claim to be spirit-filled, yet our relationships don't reflect that "fact". I believe the above verses reveal why. That love that's grown cold is God's love - not just an unloving world of unsaved, lost and unregenerated individuals. It's US. Me included. Me very included. Now, look at Elizabeth's new post today - now that's God's love working through her. I think this is the odd Christian who walks as light in the darkness. I don't believe that many of us really want to admit that we may be fast approaching, if not now in, the end of days. It's the elephant in the middle of the room. And Matt. 12 is applicable as never before. I'm not talking about salvation - just the fact that unbelievers don't see reality in most of us because we have quenched the Spirit and lost our first love. It matters, it matters, it matters! We aren't our own Christian Islands and need to be warning.
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#17 Charles Miles

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 04:22 AM

After I finally got home last night and relaxed a bit to let the wheels stop turning, I began to ponder, meditate, pray, and study about the posts by Candice and Elizabeth. I know that in my life, I sometimes run hot and sometimes I run cooler. Maybe another way to state that is that I have mountain top periods and sometimes I`m in a valley, but God`s love is a constant and unchanging, no matter where I am. Paul spoke to the Romans(in a letter) and told them about the freedom that is found in Christ to have an ongoing relationship with the Father. When we do have this relationship, God writes on our heart His laws so we need not have lists of things that we must do every day to stay in God`s favor. What a miserable, obsessive-compulsive relationship that would be! You know, some days I feel as if God is walking beside me every step of the way, leading me, comforting me, giving me peace about all the work I do, but other days, maybe I don`t feel God`s presence as closely but I know that He is still there if I need Him. On those days that I don`t feel that God is really, really close, am I in a period of "backsliding"? Somehow I don`t think so. When I get back to the Lord in prayer and confess that I missed Him during the day, I get His peace that says, "But child, I was there anyway just like all the other days". Our God is immutable, so if He says He will have a relationship with you, He will keep His word....through all time.
People, including me, sometimes look up and notice that they are not in as close a relationship with the Father as they would like, but God is there, close, nearer than the next breath and will welcome His child back to a closer relationship just for the asking, but the child has to want that close relationship. The personal relationship with the Father is the most precious thing in the universe and it was paid for by God by sacrificing His only Son, but we can have this most precious relationship for free. I love the Lord and seek this relationship with Him, but the most important thing is that He loves me and wants to have this relationship more than me. I mess it up on occasion but He does not!
Please excuse the early morning post(rant), but today I do feel especially close to the Lord and just had to tell somebody.

In Christ,

Charlie


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#18 Kenny

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:58 AM

Someone once asked; "If God seems far away, guess who moved?"

Author J. Oswald Sanders, a 20th century New Zealand Christian leader who wrote Enjoying Intimacy with God said, "Both Scripture and experience teach that it is we, not God, who determine the degree of intimacy with Him that we enjoy. We are at this moment as close to God as we really choose to be."

There was a day—an actual moment in time—that I came to grips with the fact that I was not as close to God as I wanted to be. . . . it was the first time, in a long time, that I slowed down long enough to ask myself the question, "Am I as close to God as I want to be?"

Much to my humiliation, my answer was, "No."

I consciously became aware that there was "sin" in my life that was hindering my relationship with God
I could remember times in the past when my walk with Jesus was much closer, and God's presence in my life was more real. As a Christian, one has intuitive knowledge of God's presence in their life, and on His working in their lives to bring joy and sweet fellowship along with a peace that passes all understanding. I use to daily spend time in the Bible praying that the Holy Spirit would guide my understanding, and to know God's will for my life. I remember times of answered prayer when God's voice almost seemed audible to me. Times when God would speak to my heart after a time of spending time in prayer and God would answer and say things inaudibly to my heart like, "My dear child, why is it that you are so worried about this matter. I have heard your prayer, and you have committed the outcome of this matter into my keeping. And if the outcome has been committed into my hands then you can trust that whatever the outcome, it will be for the best. Now be a peace and remember I love you.

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#19 Travis Richey

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:37 PM

And then this evening, as I started reading thru the Sunday School lesson for this week, I came across these two paragraphs...

There is a story that one day someone was talking to a professor about one of his students. He said, "A friend of mine told me that George is one of your students." The professor shaking his head said, "He may have attended my lectures, but he is not one of my students." There is a big difference between attending classes and learning from the teacher.

Honestly, one of the greatest obstacles of the church is that there are so many distant followers of Jesus and so few real disciples. Are you a real disciple or a distant follower?

Now I thought that fell right in with this thread, and how I have felt the Lord leading me lately. I am still studying Andrew Murrays book Absolute Surrender, and also reading Brother Lawrence's The Practice of the Presence of God, and just bought a copy today of Pilgrim's Progress. Interesting that all of those little books carry such a similar message...total devotion, absolute surrender, and the Lordship of Christ.
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#20 Lori Smith

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:36 PM

Travis,

I love that. Abiding in Him, feeling His heart and mind, makes everything else happen. We know Him (He is sweet and good), He transforms us, and lives through us. That's the way it should be.
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."