15 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

Have you ever had such a rich experience of the Lord, that His Presence has so overwhelmed you that tears of joy sprang into your eyes? Has a deep consciousness of His love so gripped you that "tears" in your heart have moved tears to your eyes? Has a hymn or poem given expression to something inside of you that you had been unable to find words to express, thus prompting tears? Has His comfort and love in a deep trial moved you to tears of gratitude? Has thinking deeply on the horror and agony of His sufferings and His love for us that motivated Him to endure such horror brought tears of gratitude to your eyes? God places great value on our true tears. "Thou tellest my wanderings: put Thou my tears into Thy bottle: are they not in Thy book" (Psalm 56:8)? He reminds us in Psalm 30:5, "....weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning." He promises all who are His that, ".... God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes...." (From Revelation 21:4). Selah! An absence of tears may reflect an absence of genuine Spiritual conversion. Ron

[radar]

Almost every day!

[elizabethcog]

When my Mom(who lived her faith) passed on to be with Jesus I was at church and a lady was singing the old rugged cross and Holy Spirit moved my heart to tears as I sat and just listened to the words and promises God gives us,I saw my Mom wearing her crown and was so filled with joy at the beauty and mercy of God's love the tears fell,I missed her so much but was so blessed to have had her and her example of not perfection but her example of the love Christ has for us.....

[Annette]

Almost every day - just like Radar.
The words "Thank you" seem so inadequate, but how to improve on them?
Thank goodness He reads our hearts.

[Kevin Blankenship]

Selah! An absence of tears may reflect an absence of genuine Spiritual conversion. Ron

It is my belief that we human beings have different temperaments. Some are sensitive. Some are rather cold, by nature. But to imply (although I'm quite sure that absolutely NO malice was intended) that a lack of tears is indicative of a lack of contrition, or subsequent conversion is just plain unscriptural.
The Ethiopian Eunuch had a nice conversion, which we KNOW was Spirit-prompted, and his conversion was cause for joy instead of maudlin sentimentality. This has happened many times. The sensitive Christians have conversion experiences, or afterwards, Spiritual experiences, and tears always seem to follow. It even happened to me back in the early 90's when I was standing during "Testimony from the Congregation time" and I was sharing with the congregation how moved I was that God had delivered me from such a despicable condition and placed me among friends, brothers, and sisters. I was moved at the time, which was quite uncharacteristic of me as I am of a more cold (Many churchmen/women read "cold" as "unconverted" , "demon-controlled", "he just hasn't 'got it' yet) temperament. Even C.S. Lewis, in his wonderful book: Mere Christianity, states, in so many words, that many people, who are of a "cold temperament" will not experience those tears at the alter even though many around them are sobbing. ( I realize that his is NOT the LAST WORD as I realize that same thing with any human being)
We can go to the Bible, the New Testament in particular, and do an exhaustive search in a Strong's concordance on "TEARS", or "CRYING", or "WEEPING". And we can see where these words occur when in the context of someone getting converted. For instance, when Peter was Spirit Led to the house of Cornelius, the centurion whose prayers and alms had come up before God as a memorial offering. We see a whole group (family and friends) of Cornelius hearing the Gospel being preached by Peter and before Peter could finish the Holy Spirit filled them all, as they began "speaking in tongues and prophecying". No mention of crying, weeping, sentimentality.
We can look at our Prime Example, Jesus, who was moved to tears (as was recorded in Scripture by the Holy Spirit) and in that instance, Jesus was weeping from, what I believe, was empathy for the ones around him. (Although I happened to hear a Gospel Song the other day that plainly said that Jesus did not weep because Lazarus was dead, but rather, because He had to pull Lazarus out of heaven and back to earth) which makes for a nicely moving song, but is totally NOT SCRIPTURAL. The Bible seems pretty clear as to why Jesus Wept.
In summary....this is NOT a confrontation, or attack, or any such thing, on the starter of this post. oN the contrary, I enjoy reading many of the Original posters threads. But rather, I am going toe to toe with the .."no tears...no conversion" portion. Perhaps some will be prompted to conclude that: "Well, it's obvious that Kevin has just not got the REAL THING yet". If, and ONLY if, that is so, then it is ONLY because Calvinism happened to be true, and I am one of the unfortunate ones, who thought and felt, all along, that he was on giood terms with his Savior and Lord, but that he just so happened NOT to be among the truly...CHOSEN?.
Me? I stand by me convictions that I am indeed numbered among the redeemed of God, and that when Christ died on that crude wooden cross, I was IN HIM just as surely as I was IN ADAM when he sinned in the Garden and the consequences traveled through the years all the way to me. But I might have cried, or been moved to tears, maybe twice.....in the eight years that I have rededicated my life back to God and decided to get down to REAL business with HIM and bypass all the human inspired ....s......stuff. WE are called by God....to be reconciled to God.......it was God's idea......NOT OURS......and God even facilitated this great transaction by the giving of his Son.....His only Son. Some of our number will cry at the drop of a hat. I can name one elderly man, who has gone on to his reward, but who was a wonderful mentor to me. He could NOT even start TALKING about Jesus, or the Bible, without having to pause, pull out his hankerchief, and then, with trembling voice, share what he was wanting to share.
I have also had a great man in the Faith (he came to visit me yesterday) who, I don't think that I have EVER seen him cry, but then, I am not with him in his prayer closet. For that area was sanctified by Christ Himself to be OFF LIMITS to any but the one who is praying.....and the Father.,,,,and no one else.
But THINKER....we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Others may rush to your aid to counter my reply (they needn't,....I love you still.....but hadn't you rather me tell you the truth (of what my belief is) than to merely agree with you (so to be diplomatic)?
I have known many who have measured their Spirituality using THEIR!!!!! sensitiveness as a guilded ruler. I personally believe that THAT....is a grave mistake as we are many and we are different. Sincerely, and with the love of Christ, I submit this.
PS: I have said all of this knowing that THINKER placed in his last sentence that it "MAY...be an indication". But I was not aiming what I was saying at Thinker alone but was publicising what I feel about the situation to any and all who are interested, therefore, I plied to his statement, AS IF it did not include the "MAY" word.

[Julie Daube]

Have you ever had such a rich experience of the Lord, that His Presence has so overwhelmed you that tears of joy sprang into your eyes? Has a deep consciousness of His love so gripped you that "tears" in your heart have moved tears to your eyes? Has a hymn or poem given expression to something inside of you that you had been unable to find words to express, thus prompting tears?

Every Sunday at church, and countless other times as well! However, I do agree with Kevin that the expression of emotion is not always an indicator of someone's spiritual state. Just yesterday at church, our pastor pointed that out, saying some people are more stoical in the way they worship and that doesn't mean they are any less spiritual. The pastor said that the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is manifesting the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control). There aren't emotions as much as they are character traits of someone who is walking in the Spirit (in other words, controlled by the Spirit).

[Candice]

Every Sunday at church, and countless other times as well! However, I do agree with Kevin that the exp<b></b>ressi&#111;n of emotion is not always an indicator of someone's spiritual state. Just yesterday at church, our pastor pointed that out, saying some people are more stoical in the way they worship and that doesn't mean they are any less spiritual. The pastor said that the evidence of being filled with the Spirit is manifesting the fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control). There aren't emotions as much as they are character traits of someone who is walking in the Spirit (in other words, controlled by the Spirit).

I have had many moments of tears in prayer, in the Word, in worship. Those tears were sometimes guilt, seeing and recognizing Christ's absolute terror on the cross as He was not only tortured to death, but also His Father turned on Him to save me!

However, I agree with Julie in that the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of genuine spiritual conversion. The words interchange in the sentence "may be" can also be worded "may NOT be". So, the two cancel out that in a logical way. Only He judges my heart, as Paul pointed out so well (can't remember where verse is located in the bible) I can't even judge my own heart. I would no longer look at my tears as evidence any longer. But, there was certainly a time I used to do that. Also, we read about Jesus weeping several times - in the garden before His being taken, before raising Lazarus and coming into Jerusalem on the donkey, etc. - but He certainly isn't shown to be weeping each time He spoke in the temple.

I saw my sister, who is absolutely not a believer (at least not now), cry many tears in church when she went to my church at my late husband's funeral and a few times after that. However, she will absolutely tell you that she is not a believer. However, God in His grace, may be convicting her conscience - as only He can really do - which could produce emotion, or He can use it as a way to water the seed once planted.

Just my opinion.

[Kevin Blankenship]

Now I think I"M gonna get emotional and cry!!! Because Candace didn't mention anything I wrote. (sniff) and I worked so hard (sniff) and I just wanted everyone to like me (sniff) although I don't always agree with everyone on everything....sniff......turned to.....LOL!!!!!
Just kidding y'all. Just having fun with ya Candace. Thinker, you bring up some mighty good topics that makes one get in the Bible and dig. And I also learn from others in their replies. I had it in my mind that Jesus only wept once. But Candace has it right. And besdies that...he was "moved with compassion" at seeing a large crowd who resembled a sheep wihout a shepherd just before He fed the multitude and so forth.

EDIT: Forgive me for being silly in that first sentence or two. Foolish jesting in a thread that is very serious. I apologize for that. My timing can be awkward at times.

[radar]

I had it in my mind that Jesus only wept once. But Candace has it right. And besdies that...he was "moved with compassion" at seeing a large crowd who resembled a sheep wihout a shepherd just before He fed the multitude and so forth.

I've imagined that when Jesus says ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ He will do so with tears in His eyes....

[Kevin Blankenship]

Yes, Radar, I can see that as actually happening now that ya mention it.
In another vein: I often feel like I have some sort of generational curse. Why? Well, because my Daddy, and my Daddy's daddy, where not real emotional men. I feel that I have somehow got that gene. My brother and sister seem to have it as well. It just seems like we are so insensitive. I have had to rethink my first reply. I may be answering the original question posed buy Thinker from a biased point of view. I see this as a possibility.
And I might even have to re-think my second sentence in THIS reply.....about the generational curse thing. One time I was going down the road and I was thinking about Jesus and the history that we now have together.,....and what all we have went through together. I was moved to tears. Often, I can watch an Andy Griffeth episode, and if it's one of those where Andy and Opie have to 'make up' towards the end of the show, and the violin is playing in the background, my eyes fill up.
Man!!! I can't make my mind up about ANYTHING!!!!! lol....sigh Yes, I am thinking that perhaps a person who has been converted is now possessed (or should be) by the Spirit.... spirit, soul, and body. (Emotions fit in there somewhere). Perhaps, deep down, I wanted to put up a front and simply not admit that "Yes....I, Kevin B.,......DO CRY!" And it seems like a bit more lately......SINCE this thread was started. Since I have admitted that.....might as well go whole hog: "I ENJOY a good cry!!!!" Sometimes I can, and for NO specific reason, feel a deep down need to just break out in heavy sobbing. I did this the other day....and I STILL can't tell you why. I just know that I felt much better. I also felt more.......normal?......in so doing. I tell ya folks......it would not do for me to be on a jury!!!!! lol......Everyday, I would change my mind! First day (of deliberations): "HANG HIM!!" Second day: "Let's not be rash" Third day (if deliberations are that long): " Inject him....rid the earth of his ilk" Fourth day: "NOT GUILTY!" by reason of insanity (mine)........ROTLing

[Candice]

Kevin, I guess we don't have to worry that the Lord has hardened your heart after all. Just don't mess with Aunt Bee's feelings! That would make me cry to see Aunt Bee hurt!

Just thinking...some scripture examples about the LORD hardening the hearts of some, e.g. Pharoah, came to my mind with respect to this topic. Sometimes I wonder if my heart is hardened a bit. If I look at my past and present state, I could see both hard heartedness and soft heartedness. I believe it is yielding to the Lord that matters of the heart. We cannot separate our spirit, body and soul (mind, personality) into parts. The emotions are not to be depended upon IMO. Discernment from the Spirit ought to be depended upon.

Examples for me personally: I used to be more of an animal lover. I have a more mature, practical sense of that now. I was a veterinary technician for a few years long time ago and tried to get into vet school (obviously unsuccessfully). In those days, I would weep uncontrollably at a Jacques Cousteau special (I'm old enough at 56 years, to have watched lots of those), just watching a whale or a dolphin, at any predation of animals, etc. would put me under! At some point, I thought I was hard-hearted and wondered (remember specifically thinking about this) where did that sensitivity go? My friend recently spent about a thousand dollars on her two cats who are both 14 years old. My friend is flat broke, foreclosing on her house, jobless and in vast debt. I listened to her entire story of her cats' state of health and I found myself having to keep my tongue on the roof of my mouth (like Ezekiel was told to do by the Lord) as not to outright judge her for her emotionalism and, what I thought, was a poor financial decision over her cats. Then, just a couple of weeks ago, I noticed an orphan fawn, still brightly spotted. My eyes filled with tears, and my thought turned immediately to scripture, that "...all creation groans" (under the fall). Today, again, I saw TWO orphaned (twin), brightly spotted fawns. I even stopped the car to look for mommy deer for several minutes. She didn't show up. My heart sunk. Again, "all creation is groaning". So, I still have a pulse, a softness. But, I ask Who do I yield to with emotions and decisions thereof? It's just not ruling me nor causing me to make poor decisions. If I think of my black Labrador dying (he's 11 or 12?), it always brings tears to my eyes. Would I choose to keep my dog alive for $1,000 and turn from children on the streets of Nepal, sold into sex slavery who are created in the image of God? Well, I would clone my Labrador if I could. But, then I wonder, I know people who would give their all and all for an animal, but those who are made in God's image? No, they don't seem to care at the drop of a hat like they do for a cat or dog. I guess we should just go before the Lord and ask about that. That's my emotional button from the past that's changed. Am I hard-hearted? Am I unregenerate?

[Kevin Blankenship]

Candace, you are the most level headed human I know. You really summed up how my thinking is. (Although I don't get so tore up about an orphaned fawn,,,,,as a TWRA(Tennessee Wildlife Resources) officer told me one time: "Nature is 100% efficient" when I asked him about orphaned fawns in the autumn during archery season. (Here's a bomb: I archery hunt).
Here's a little peek inside MY soul: The other day, something that I was working on immediately tore up!!! I had crossthreaded a high pressure hose. And that ended my little project until the following Monday....when I could re-order. I got so blooming mad that I cried!!! It was like I was mad at God for letting it happen. I thought that He let it happen because I was engrossing myself in this hobby too much and so he let it get destroyed (although it was MY clumsiness( to teach me a lesson. Get this!!!: I even said: " It does NOT matter...as I will get another one just like it this coming Monday!!!" The next day, I had cooled down, and was more level headed. I apologized to God for my childishly boorish behavior and asked that God would grant me 'repentance unto life' in that area. I started asking myself: When did I ever get so mad that I cried at (1) Someone being treated wrongly (2) Someone who was hungry through absolutely no fault of their own (3) at parents who sexually abuse their children during their formative little years and that same parent wearing the banner of "Christianity". I failed my little introspective test with flying colors. The entire incedent had sucessfully shown me, in stark relief, how tethered to the world I still am, how I trust "things" to bring meaning to my life, etc etc etc. I then sank into one of my notorious funks that seem to last for weeks now instead of a couple of days. I think it's all coming from the pain of the flesh dying, but still trying to kick itself, bond it ropes, off of the alter.It really caused me to question whether my conversion was solid and true instead of shallow and rootless.

[radar]

Candice, Reading what you said about a fallen creation reminded me that when Adam and Eve sinned, an innocent life was required to cover for sin, so an animal died to provide skins for covering to replace the fig leaves, or man's attempt to cover his sin. IMHO I believe God wants us to know the pain that attonement requires or He would not have given us compassionate feelings towards his creatures. The Jewish people were told to sacrifice a lamb for Passover that had no spot or blemish. They were told to keep the lamb for four days to be sure that it was without spot or blemish. Naturally, during this time the family would have grown attached to the adorable animal. (Exodus 12:5-6).

Kevin, We were made emotional creatures. Our soul is where our emotions reside. Western culture has trained men to not cry as it shows weakness. I believe that Adam had the same emotions as Eve. God says " I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."—Ezekiel 36:26. That is the promise to the converted person. We have had our hearts turned to stone by sin. That accounts for much remorseless evil in the world. When we come to Christ, we are given new hearts of flesh or softness with the law of God written there; "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10.

Sounds to me that you are a human that has the law of God written in your heart and mind and are having the same struggles the rest of the brethren do. I admire the frankness of you stating what many of us think but do not say about our walk. Now if only God would grant me the same transparency!

[Candice]

Guys,

I can have a really hard heart. There is no doubt about it. But, it is usually towards people who I think should know better - who claim to be so spiritual, but then.....Well, who do I think I am. I was on my knees yesterday about my wrong heart of stone. Hopefully, it will not calcify to the point of no turning back.

Yet, good news. Today I saw another spotted fawn alone out in a field. It darted out when it saw my dog and me walking along the road. No mom....BUT, then, after about one minute, along came mom deer! I was relieved as my heart sunk again when I didn't see the mom with her baby.

Smiles!

[Ginger]

What real and also gracious shares! I've cried and been uplifted from reading each post. And I've identified with being hard hearted, wondering about 'stuff' that just sets me 'on one' then beating on self like that's going to help. Each post helped me to feel a bit more connected within ... just so glad that each of you have shared coz I sure needed to read what each of you wrote.

...tears, laughter, and just thankful that I got some good folks sharing straight from their heart. So much from hearts that began with the original piece....

Now I am calmed down and just don't have much that I'm able to put besides, saying thank you! Thank each of you for posting and for what you've shared. I'm just too blamed tired to think ... ah, Aunt Bea.. recalling her and have a sense of her ... and even have a few flash backs of some very brief scenes ...

Thanks!!!

Reckon I fail a lot and fret over lack of Christian attitude and behavior but now I'm just going to let me be and chuckling... Makes me think of God having a as sense of humor and being the most profound human who ever graced this earth ... now I'm wondern' about Jesus laughing and just think it would be beautiful to hear...

Night all and good morning too... Appreciate ya... and gonna let this be whatever it be...

[Lori Smith]

Hearing Jesus laugh ... now that experience would bring me tears of joy!!!