10 replies to this topic

[Candice]

I really never had reason to think much about the day of rest. I really don't obey the commandment to be honest. I do work, etc.

My friend recently was convicted to start keeping the Sabboth on Saturday and believes we are not, as average Christians who worship on Sunday, obeying the commandment.

OK, I thought, here we go again; another legalistic attitude. But, then again...

I know Constantine changed the Sabboth from Saturday to Sunday by creating the new as did Pope Gregory. I won't get into the technicalities as I'm sure we are mostly aware of all that.

But, is there a fair and reasonable answer as to why we don't go back to Saturday and worship on the original 7th day as Christ would have done when He lived?

Any ideas or thoughts to support either way?

[radar]

Worship (III): The Day of Worship: The Lord's Day
Mike Willis
Dayton, Ohio
In Rev. 1:10 John wrote, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . ." By the time the book of Revelation was written, one day had already come to be designated as the "Lord's Day." Which day was it? Sabbatarians tell us that the Lord's day is the seventh day of the week and teach that the early church worshiped on the Sabbath day. They further charge that either the pope or Constantine changed the day of worship of the New Testament church and that those of us who worship on the first day of the week have departed from New Testament Christianity. Let us find out just what John meant when he spoke of the "Lord's day" to see if the first or the seventh day of the week is the Lord's day.
Sabbath Observance Was Abolished
The observance of the Sabbath day was instituted shortly after God led Israel out of Egyptian bondage. The commandment to "remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy" was given to the nation Israel in conjunction with the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20; Deut. 5). God specifically stipulated how the Sabbath was to be observed. Here are some of the ordinances required for proper observance of the Sabbath day, according to the Mosaical law: (a) do no work (Ex. 31:15); ( kindle no fire (Ex. 35:3); © gather no sticks (Num. 15:32); (d) offer burnt offerings (Num. 29:9-10); (e) buy no goods (Neh. 10:31; 28:9-10); (f) bear no burden (Jer. 17:21); (g) prepare shewbread (1 Chron. 9:32); (h) stay in one's place (Ex. 16:29; Acts 1:12). Anyone who disobeyed these commandments was to be punished by being put to death (Ex. 31:14; Num. 15:32-36).
Though many religious people say that they observe the Sabbath day, I have never yet met anyone who observed it according to the Scriptures. Though they might do no work and buy no goods, I know of no Sabbatarian who prepares shewbread and offers burnt offerings on the Sabbath day as the Mosaical law requires. Neither have I ever met the man who believes that all those who do not observe the Sabbath day should be put to death. Even those who believe in worshiping on the Sabbath day do not believe in observing it as the Bible dictates.
However, when the law of Christ was given, the Mosaical law was abolished or abrogated (Heb. 8:13; 7:12; Eph. 2:14-16; etc.). Consequently, Paul could write, "And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to ,food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ" (Col. 2:13-17). Hence, Sabbath observance was abolished when the rest of the ordinances of the Mosaical law were abolished. Men do not observe the Sabbath, not because the pope or Constantine said not to observe it, but because of a divine decree which set aside the Sabbath day.
Scriptural Evidence For The First Day of the Week
The first day of the week is the Lord's day. It is the only day in the week which can properly be called the "Lord's day." When one remembers some of the important things which transpired on that day, he can see why the day came to be called the "Lord's day." On the first day of the week, Jesus arose from the dead (Mk. 16:1-9). On that day, he appeared to Mary Magdalene (Mk. 16:9); to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus (Lk. 24:13-35); to the apostles with Thomas absent (Jn. 20:19-25); to the apostles with Thomas present (Jn. 20:26-29); etc. Inasmuch as Pentecost always fell on the first day of the week (Lev. 23:15), these important events with reference to the early church occurred on the first day of the week: the coming of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4), the first gospel sermon and the obedience of three thousand whom the Lord added to the church. Hence, the first day of the week was an important day for the early church.
The early church met habitually on the first day of the week to worship the Lord. Let me give scriptural evidence that this is so. There is sufficient scriptural evidence to prove that the early church assembled regularly. Paul wrote, "But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse . . . . Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's supper" (1 Cor. 11:17, 20). Notice that these passages show that the church customarily assembled. The instructions in 1 Cor. 14 presuppose an assembly of the church. Then, too, Heb. 10:25 ("not forsaking our own assembling together") shows that the early church customarily assembled together for worship.
That this assembly occurred on the first day of the week is evident from the Scriptures as well. In 1 Cor. 16:1-2, Paul wrote, "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come." Notice several things from this verse. The instructions were given to a number of churches; these were not limited to Corinth. The instructions enjoined were to be observed on the first day of every week. Too, the instructions are not "come together to give" but "give while you are come together." Hence, this passage is conclusive evidence that the early church worshiped on Sunday, the first day of the week, which day came to be known as the Lord's day.
Furthermore, Acts 20:7 shows that the early church worshiped regularly on the first day of the week. Paul was on his way to Jerusalem on an urgent trip to take funds gathered for benevolent purposes for the saints in Jerusalem. However, he wanted to worship with the saints at Troas. Apparently, he arrived on Monday for he tarried seven days (Acts 20:6) to await the assembling of the saints. The Scriptures say, "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight." Notice, that Paul expected the church to assemble on the first day of the week and, for that reason, waited seven days to meet with them. Too, the early church usually met on that day to "break bread," to observe the Lord's supper. Hence, this passage further confirms what I have said, namely, that the early church regularly worshiped on the first day of the week.
Therefore, when we read that John was in the Spirit on the "Lord's day," we should properly understand that this was the first day of the week, the day set aside to worship and adore God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. The Scriptural evidence is quite clear that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week. The change in the days of worship from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week occurred by divine decree.
Extra-Biblical Evidences
Lest someone still is unconvinced that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week, I would like to cite the extra-biblical evidences which confirm what I have already proven from the Scriptures. McClintock and Strong cited a number of post-biblical evidences that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week; here are part of them:
"The epistle ascribed to St. Barnabas, which, though certainly not written by that apostle, was in existence in the earlier part of the 2nd century, has (c. 15) the following words: `We celebrate the eighth day with joy, on which, too, Jesus rose from the dead.'
"A pagan document now comes into view. It is the well-known letter of Pliny to Trajan written (about A.D. 100) while he presided ova Pontus and Bithynia. `The Christians (says he) affirm the whole of their guilt or error to be that they were accustomed to meet together on a stated day (stato die), before it was light, and to sing hymns to Christ as a god, and to bind themselves by a sacramentum, not for any wicked purpose, but never to commit fraud, theft, or adultery; never to break their word, or to refuse, when called upon, to deliver up any trust; after which it was their custom to separate, and to assemble again to take a meal, but a general one, and without guilty purpose' (Epist. x, 97)."
"A thoroughly Christian authority, Justin Martyr, who flourished A.D. 140, stands next on the list. He writes thus: `On the day called Sunday (te ton heliou legomene hemers) is an assembly of all who live either in the cities or in the rural districts, and the memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read . . . . He afterwards assigns the reasons which Christians had for meeting on Sunday. There are, `because it is the First Day, on which God dispelled the darkness (to skotos) and the original state of things (ten hulen), and formed the world, and because Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead upon it' (Apol. i, 67)" ("The Lord's Day," Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, Vol. V, p. 507).
After citing these evidences and several more McClintock and Strong gave their summation of the evidence:
"The results of our examination of the principal writers of the two centuries after the death of St. John may be thus summed up. The Lord's day (a name which has now come out more prominently, and is connected more explicitly with our Lord's resurrection than before) existed during these two centuries as a part and parcel of apostolical, and so of scriptural Christianity. It was never defended, for it was never impugned, or, at least, only impugned as other things received from the apostles were. It was never confounded with the Sabbath, but carefully distinguished from it . . . ." (Ibid., p. 508).
Hence, both biblical and extra-biblical evidences confirm that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week, a day which they called the Lord's day.
Conclusion
Why, then, does the Lord's church worship on the first day of the week? The answer is simple: because the Scriptures authorize it. The first day of the week, therefore, is the day of worship of the New Testament church. On that day, worship according to the divine pattern must be offered. Do you observe the Lord's day?


Questions - Lesson III

• What day of the week is the Sabbath day?
• Is Sunday the "Christian Sabbath"?
• How was the Sabbath day observed in Israel? What was the punishment for failing to observe the Sabbath?
• Do churches which worship on Saturday observe the Sabbath, according to the law of Moses?
• Why was Sunday called "the Lord's Day"?
• What biblical evidences show that the early church worshiped on the first day of the week?
• Check other secular historians (such as your encyclopedia) to see what they say about the day of worship for the church.
• How would you answer the charge that the Catholics changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday?

Truth Magazine XXIII: 43, pp. 695-696
November 1, 1979

[radar]

Worship (III): The Day of Worship: The Lord's Day
Mike Willis
Dayton, Ohio
In Rev. 1:10 John wrote, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . . ." By the time the book of Revelation was written, one day had already come to be designated as the "Lord's Day." Which day was it? Sabbatarians tell us that the Lord's day is the seventh day of the week and teach that the early church worshiped on the Sabbath day. They further charge that either the pope or Constantine changed the day of worship of the New Testament church and that those of us who worship on the first day of the week have departed from New Testament Christianity. Let us find out just what John meant when he spoke of the "Lord's day" to see if the first or the seventh day of the week is the Lord's day.<strong>Sabbath%

[Julie Daube]

Colossians 2:16 (quoted in Radar's response) pretty much sums it up: "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

And here is interesting perspective about Jesus being "our Sabbath rest":

The various elements of the Sabbath symbolized the coming of the Messiah, who would provide a permanent rest for His people. Once again the example of resting from our labors comes into play. With the establishment of the Old Testament Law, the Jews were constantly “laboring” to make themselves acceptable to God. Their labors included trying to obey a myriad of do’s and don’ts of the ceremonial law, the Temple law, the civil law, etc. Of course they couldn’t possibly keep all those laws, so God provided an array of sin offerings and sacrifices so they could come to Him for forgiveness and restore fellowship with Him, but only temporarily. Just as they began their physical labors after a one-day rest, so, too, did they have to continue to offer sacrifices. Hebrews 10:1 tells us that the law “can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.” But these sacrifices were offered in anticipation of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ on the cross, who ”after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God” (Hebrews 10:12). Just as He rested after performing the ultimate sacrifice, He sat down and rested—ceased from His labor of atonement because there was nothing more to be done, ever. Because of what He did, we no longer have to “labor” in law-keeping in order to be justified in the sight of God. Jesus was sent so that we might rest in God and in what He has provided.

Read more: http://www.gotquesti...l#ixzz2ZEFxKUIB

[Charles Miles]

Interesting topic we have here. IMHO, the Lord was teaching Isael to keep a day holy for Him, and that was and still is important for all of us. Now, which day should we choose in which to worship the Lord and all he has done for us? The number 7 seems to have a special meaning throughout the Bible, but there are other numbers that are special also....like 12. We certainly should set aside a day of worship, at least weekly, in which to show our gratitude, praise Him, and humble ourselves. Would it be heresy to say that maybe it doesn`t matter which day we choose? I have so much to be thankful for and so much to praise Him for, that I should probably set aside all the days of the week. I should and I do worship and praise my God every day, but there is one day weekly that I set aside to meditate and think about all my blessings, the ransom paid, the joy that has been given, and my debt to Him. I choose Sunday because my parents chose Sunday and their parents chose Sunday. I guess what I am trying to say is....maybe it doesn`t make a difference which day it is, but there should be a day, a time, a segment of life, that is given for worship to the One who is owed all worship and all praise.

In Christ,

Charlie

[ADVRider]

To me, this thinking is part of a larger trend that I've observed over the years, and increasingly so recently. It's where Christians adopt, in varying degrees, Jewish traditions into their Christian practice. It's not my intent to offend anyone; I am just giving my opinion here. But the thinking I've seen goes like this. A friend starts incorporating some Jewish traditons and practices and begins to believe this is helpful, possibly giving greater insight and even spirituality. It often is just some little thing or two. In one extreme example though, a friend and his wife enrolled their little girl in Jewish day school and were reportedly ready to pack up and....move to Israel. Essentially, to convert to Judaism. For me, people make their own choices so if someone wants to worship on Saturday or whatever, that is between them and their Lord. I am just not sure some of this is actually helpful to their Christian walk however. It's not the individual act they may participate in per se, it's the overall thinking behind it. To me, this emphasis on Old Testament practice taken as a whole is actually at odds with the core of the Gospel message--freedom. Christ did not call us to rules and legalisms; these are the Old Covenant, and in my view, there is nothing to be gained by going back to that. I could say much more, but the book of Galatians especially, and other epistles generally, address this. For the record, I am not speaking against the idea of knowing Jewish traditions or studying them for insight; I am referring to the subtle idea that adopting Old Testament practices somehow makes one more enlightend or spiritual. And it is subtle, because no one has ever said to me, "you must do this." But the implication has always been, "you should." My friend's Jewish rabbi goes so far as to say to my him that his Christian friends (such as myself) are just not enlightend to the truth of knowing the Torah. Again, not trying to offend anyone here; these are just my observatons and thoughts on the subject.

[Kevin Blankenship]

As Tozer said: "Christians just don't know that they had it so good!" non-verbatim and talking about Christians trying to re-incorporate the law into their worship. What about the Gentile Protocol sent out by James and the super-apostles (as some claimed to have called them) at the Jerusalem council. (Remember, that IS where the infant church got it's first spanking out of the womb to make it cry and gasp in life giving air). Most, if not ALL of you know what the Jerusalem Council sent to the Gentile Churches!!!! I see no mention of a certain day of worship. In Romans 14:5, Paul proclaims, or rather, the Holy Spirit directs, through Paul: "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
That's good enough for me. Perhaps I am a bit of a rebel or free-spirited, or perhaps even I amuse myself by being a non-conformist: (I really hope THAT is not the case with me, as THAT is a dangerous approach with some issues).

[Candice]

To me, this thinking is part of a larger trend that I've observed over the years, and increasingly so recently. It's where Christians adopt, in varying degrees, Jewish traditions into their Christian practice. It's not my intent to offend anyone; I am just giving my opinion here. But the thinking I've seen goes like this. A friend starts incorporating some Jewish traditons and practices and begins to believe this is helpful, possibly giving greater insight and even spirituality. It often is just some little thing or two. In one extreme example though, a friend and his wife enrolled their little girl in Jewish day school and were reportedly ready to pack up and....move to Israel. Essentially, to convert to Judaism. For me, people make their own choices so if someone wants to worship on Saturday or whatever, that is between them and their Lord. I am just not sure some of this is actually helpful to their Christian walk however. It's not the individual act they may participate in per se, it's the overall thinking behind it. To me, this emphasis on Old Testament practice taken as a whole is actually at odds with the core of the Gospel message--freedom. Christ did not call us to rules and legalisms; these are the Old Covenant, and in my view, there is nothing to be gained by going back to that. I could say much more, but the book of Galatians especially, and other epistles generally, address this. For the record, I am not speaking against the idea of knowing Jewish traditions or studying them for insight; I am referring to the subtle idea that adopting Old Testament practices somehow makes one more enlightend or spiritual. And it is subtle, because no one has ever said to me, "you must do this." But the implication has always been, "you should." My friend's Jewish rabbi goes so far as to say to my him that his Christian friends (such as myself) are just not enlightend to the truth of knowing the Torah. Again, not trying to offend anyone here; these are just my observatons and thoughts on the subject.

Hi All,

I believe that we have so many denominations and a lack of "Christian tradition". But, not in the usual sense. I sort of covet the Jews in a way (very little), because they have 'TRADITION' as the famous Fiddler on the Roof song goes. And, I don't mean this in any humorous way. We have so split ourselves into denomination nation that it seems kind of special to celebrate in some way that goes beyond standard church-house fare.

There's such beauty in the Old Testament celebratory feasts, etc. Just the foreshadowing of Christ and all the symbolism to His coming is really hands-on to me. I had a Seder dinner at our house about eight years ago. It was very pleasurable to sit on the floor, passing these foods with such a rich, symbolism. Just could not find hyssop here in Northern Wyoming!! What beautiful stories behind these celebrations. It was just once; I'm not getting into all of that just to do it.

I think it would be neat to just celebrate some of the feasts, festivals, harvest, etc.. Not to be legalistic or to be a keeper of all of that law, but just for the celebratory factor. People knew each other in a different, closer way. Maybe I'm just a romantic at heart here, but if you are feasting and celebrating for seven days in a row, you're bound to not just be sitting there looking down at your shoes!

We have no tradition left. I kind of like tradition as long as it isn't legalism, purely habitual and empty and without God's Spirit. I was raised Roman Catholic and most of that tradition in Vatican I was scary to me as a young girl.

I'm not a messianic Christian because I was never a Jew. But, I guess I can see - not in a strict New Testament way - the appeal and why some Jews who converted to Christianity - still celebrate feasts. They were Jews, so ok. I was never a Jew, so why would I start up all of that now? I'd celebrate for the fellowship and deep meaning.

There can be a great stumbling block of pride for the Messianic if there's divisiveness in it which does happen. Sadly, that's been what I've seen in a few Messianic Christians I know of - right down to telling others to get the leavening out of the house at Passover. And, I mean every flake of yeast, etc. Cleaning the cabinets inside out!!

[Lori Smith]

My time in Bible college led me to seek after my Jewish roots. This is not a desire for more spirituality by keeping feasts; instead, it is an effort to know God as He is. Certainly, we must each pursue God according to our own conscience; thus, this is simply my way—I am not pushing this perspective.

Firstly, I took a Philosophy of Religion class that stated, “Jesus came to fulfill Greek philosophy.” One can easily find credence in that statement since Socrates proposed that logic suggests there must be a virtuous Creator. In addition, theology consists of methods that employ Greek philosophy to explain God. This method continues today.

However, I find that the understanding of God the Romans developed is quite different from the Hebrew portrayal of Him. Indeed, Plato (Greek, but used by Roman theologians) proposed a very distant and unapproachable God. Likewise, men who continued to employ philosophy (like Jonathan Edwards) taught via this doctrinal understanding. Out of this thinking come sermons like “Sinners in the hand of an angry God.”

Perhaps, you do not think this is important, but consider the teaching I recently received regarding the history of chaplaincy. Ralph Mathisen searches for its origins among pre-Christian Roman armies. He writes, “The religious life of the military was institutionalized in several ways. Every camp had a shrine for standards, called the andes signorum, which was located in the headquarters area, or principia. The shrine was attended by an honor guard and contained the eagle (if it was a legion), other standards, and images of the emperor or emperors. Legionary commanders, military units, and individual soldiers made the multitudes of dedications, often in the form of stone inscriptions, on behalf of various kinds of deities: generalized military gods known as the dii militares; gods such as Jupiter Optimus Maximus (Jupiter the best and greatest, the primary Roman state god), Mars and Victoria (the personification of victory); and of the divine element, genius, of the emperor” (The Sword of the Lord, 30).

Do you see what Mathisen (and the entire book) does? He places Rome as the church’s foundation. Thus, pagan worship of Roman gods is the church’s foundation. Many don’t realize that Protestantism has roots in Roman Catholicism, for it broke away from Rome in many ways, but still has much of the mindset that Rome established. (this may not bother you. If it doesn’t, I’m not trying to change you. I’m simply explaining why I prefer Jewish roots).

On the other hand, the early church emerged as the fulfillment of Judaism. Their background was not pagan worship, but the worship of Yahweh. This is a personal God! He says to Israel, “I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness, I saw your fathers as the firstfruits on the fig tree in its first season” (Hos 9:10). Additionally, King David’s psalms reveal a back and forth interaction between God and man. It is a divine romance, instead of the person-less force that theology develops (about God).

As a result, I wish to teach (especially children) about the God of Israel, rather than the god of Rome. Romans like to give colorful Easter Eggs to children. However, prophets like Ezekiel give them much more, and write: “Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of THE GLORY OF THE LORD” (1:28). Indeed, this colorful display far outshines a display of Easter (?) Eggs.

This is my view. You are welcome to yours!

P.S. Regarding the Sabbath, I have no preference for a particular day.

[ADVRider]

This is one of those sensitive subjects that can easily be divisive and that was certainly not my intent. At the risk of digging a bigger hole , I'll quote myself and add in hopes of clarifying. Like many of the wonderful folks on here, I am a little aware of the wide spectrum of opinion on this subject, but I think from some of the replies, I feel maybe I wasn't clear. Some subjects just do not convey well over a forum, especially ones that are difficult to begin with! Anyway, here is part of what I said:

For the record, I am not speaking against the idea of knowing Jewish traditions or studying them for insight; I am referring to the subtle idea that adopting Old Testament practices somehow makes one more enlightend, spiritual or correct....[rabbi] goes so far as to say to my friend that his Christian friends (such as myself) are just not enlightend to the truth of knowing the Torah.

It should be understood too, I was specifically addressing the question Candice had in her original post, referring to her lady friend who now feels she (I presumed she changed from a prior view) must, should, etc. worship on the sabbath, perhaps because she feels it's more biblical or it's just the right way. But even if someone feels this way, it's not my business; unless I know them personally and they ask my opinion, I'll remain quiet. But this is a forum and and opinions were asked on the subject, so....Anyway, got that out of the way.

Like many of you I presume, I've sat under a couple of Jewish (by ethnicity) believing pastors and professors, not that any of that makes me qualified to say anything. But the one thought I was trying to convey was simply the idea that for some people (me at times), Christ is not enough. To be fair, it's so easy for any of us to add any-"something" to our faith, be it "Jewish tradition" or a multitude of rituals. We all have the "flesh" hard-wired and have to guard against "Christ is not enough." The freedom we've been called to is "Christ is enough" and there is nothing I can add. And so, I am not putting the study ot the OT, Jewish tradition or some such thing by itself as such a ritual. I hope that is clear. But I have seen some friends take what is permissable and suggest it is mandatory. This undermines the truth.

I do refer back to Paul's writings, especially Galatians. It is pretty clear in there, that Paul was very zealous for the protection of the truth because he knew just a little kernal of error was enough to undermine the gospel, and cause people to go off course. That is all I am saying here. We do have our opinions and even preferences. If someone, like Candice, wants to celebrate OT feasts like Seder, by all means, enjoy. That's not really what I was trying to highlight. My preference on something like that would be a little different, but as Lori said, that is okay too. Shalom!

[Lori Smith]

I think the beauty of this forum is the freedom to bring our own perspectives (and affinities) into the discussion. I think God often gives each of us a particular bent depending on our giftings etc. I happen to love all things Jewish ... it is a great affinity for me. It's not a works vs. grace issue for me (I agree with John that this can get out of hand. I also love how Candice celebrates the feasts in a Christian way).

I've seen various Christians with affinities for various groups depending upon whom God has purposed them to reach with the gospel. They too may recognize Jewish foundations of Christianity, but might not be as focused upon it. I believe that I will be doing some training (and possibly working) in a very large Jewish area. Perhaps, that is why I love Jewish people so much.

What I'm trying to say, is that I have so much to say about this topic, that I tried to condense a bit into one post. Thus, it's hard to fully express every thought. This makes it hard to share all of the nuances of beliefs and feelings. Like I said, I'm not trying to push my own way, but I thought my ideas might bring some light or new understandings to others. That's why I posted what I said. I love hearing the input from each and every poster. I think each of you have unique perspectives, and I treasure hearing them.