13 replies to this topic

[ChristianSoldier]

Interesting last paragraph! I again disagree with Tozer's logic in his last paragraph. Tozer seems to define Christian apostasy as what is not currently popular or in vogue and implies that human excesses taint all Christian doctrine; as if human corruption can taint what is revealed by our Lord. If one believes that scripture is intaintable and unchangeable, then apoctacy must be defined as non-unity of belief. If this is the case, then i would maintaint that Rome has never changed in essential belief. There were sinful human abuses verging on simony in the late 15th Century but no change in essential doctrine or belief. Transsubstantation (Christ present after the words of consecration) at the altar during the mass, the penance, the sacraments, etc. all have remained the same. Can we say the same of the 16th Century Reformers, Moravians, and John Wesley or fundamentalism? It seems that Tozer is almost contemptuously asking "What is apostasy"? as Pilate in John 18:38 asked of our Lord, "What is Truth"?

[Charles Miles]

Soldier,
I sense a rather robust attitude of defensiveness as reguards the Roman Catholic Church in your post. I happen to agree with Tozer that apostacy creeps into the Church over time, and that includes Catholic, Protestant, and others. Men make "rules" that seem good at the time, but they attempt to "add to" the gospel so it makes more sense to them or maybe they try to take their own feeble understanding of the Word using "sense knowledge" and make that part of the doctrine of their church. The Jews did it, the Catholics did it, as well as the Protestants. I don`t think all revelation of scripture was given to one man at one time. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, etc each had a revelation that advanced the faith and understanding. You do agree that Luther had a point? Can you see why he was upset at the church of the day? His paper rufuted some practices of the Roman Church that were not taught by Christ , and needed to be reformed(or re-evaluated) in the light of the revelation of a loving God. Protestants have their problems also....

Religion is man`s attempt to reach God by doing things...and it will not work. Has never worked. We can`t reach up to God, but He can and does reach down to us. The substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross is the ultimate reaching down to us to do something we could never do on our own merit. I`m pleased that you love your church because that`s admirable, but it won`t get anyone justified, sanctified, or glorified. A personal relationship with the God of the universe is needed and that is what He offers. When men start making rules about what one must do to have salvation, beyond confessing that Jesus is Lord and has risen from the dead, I tend to be very careful. These rules might help one to be "a good person", but they can`t be relied upon for salvation of one`s soul.

May the Grace of our Lord go with you,

Charlie

[Kenny]

Soldier, You do agree that Luther had a point? Can you see why he was upset at the church of the day? His paper rufuted some practices of the Roman Church that were not taught by Christ , and needed to be reformed(or re-evaluated) in the light of the revelation of a loving God.

Exactly - those indulgences, had to go. You can read all 95 of Luther's Theses at - http://www.biblestud...-95-theses.html

[Candice]

If this is the case, then i would maintaint that Rome has never changed in essential belief. There were sinful human abuses verging on simony in the late 15th Century but no change in essential doctrine or belief. Transsubstantation (Christ present after the words of consecration) at the altar during the mass, the penance, the sacraments, etc. all have remained the same. Can we say the same of the 16th Century Reformers, Moravians, and John Wesley or fundamentalism?

I know there are Catholics who are saved and believe that their salvation comes through Christ. I was raised Roman Catholic, even in Vatican I (until I was about 13 years old). So, I believe I may speak here from experience of my own and my family members and research. I believe that the Catholic church has sustained many ideals and those have changed a great deal over time. However, my questions are: "how and why?" Partly, because the Vatican Bank holds more wealth than any other in the world. The church has declined, really declined back in the 60's; hence change to Vatican I to Vatican II. Pope John Paul didn't make it very far as pope. Wonder why? The Vatican Bank and its money laundering. This hasn't changed. Not to say that any Catholic knows this or that any priest is part of it. It's bigger than the mafia. This is hard to write, but is factual.

[Candice]

Oh, also, Tozer always holds to the scriptures as unchangeable in that this is the breathed WORD of GOD. Just as the LORD CREATOR breathed life into Adam. The Word is not to be changed; thus Tozer's comment. Maybe I'm off? Also, many great Catholic nuns, priests and members who do absolutely great deeds for others around the globe.

[Pastor Robert Young]

Scripture does not change it is mans heart and mind that changes and the ability to press into scripture what is simply not there. There is only the blood of Christ that saves you not the works of man. It is beyond comprehension that man has invented and applied theology which even when disproved by scripture will still maintain it as factual. But then look at the theory of evolution, even when it is disproved still man hangs onto it as if it was Gods truth. I am in full agreement with Tozar on his view of apostasy as he presented it in his devotional.

[Kenny]

So far, this poster who goes by the name of ChristianSoldier has been a hit and run poster who seems to enjoy posting pro-Catholic, anti-Protestant comments but does not return to his/her posts to interact with other members of this forum.

[Charles Miles]

If Soldier thinks the Roman church has no changed "essential doctrine and belief" over the years, he may need to look over the history of the church. I do think this new pope is a breath of fresh air for Catholics and could make some great things happen in that denomination. The Catholic church has done some very, very bad things in the past, but also has done somme very, very good things.....let`s hope this new pope is the start of the next series of good things for that church.

[Lori Smith]

ChristianSoldier,

It appears that you are offended by Tozer’s comments. However, I believe that Tozer rightly condemns that which should be condemned. When unrighteousness is committed in the name of Christ, followers of Christ should denounce it and distance themselves from it. Moreover, when the Church deviates from the teachings of its foundation, it is only right to say so.

Certainly Rome’s usurpation of Christianity is an historical fact, for Constantine conquered by the sword. This notion was completely unlike Christ! For example, Jesus told His disciples, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them. It will not be so among you; but whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave” (Mt.20:24). Jesus lived and served men in ways that demonstrated that ideal. Indeed, He had no palace like the pope to live in, though He was God!

Additionally, it’s hard to imagine our Lord condoning the torture which took place during the years of the inquisition. Bruce Shelley, church historian, notes how the Catholic Church “authorized torture as a means of getting information and confessions from accused heretics ... [under] Pope Innocent IV in 1252.”[1]

Who were these heretics the Catholic Church tortured and turned over to the magistrate to execute? Many were simple, true believers in the gospel. For example, the Waldensians were hunted down and killed; their beliefs were similar to the beliefs of Protestants today—the belief that faith in Jesus saves men. Indeed, C. T. Marshall writes, “They believed that the Bible should be the supreme authority in their lives and insofar as the established clergy did not conform to the teaching of the Gospels, it was condemned.”[2]

Thus, the Catholic Church tortured men who held to the writings of Scripture. It’s impossible to imagine Jesus Christ authorizing the torture of men who chose to believe His Words. However, this is exactly what the Catholic Church did.

You mention that the beliefs of the Catholic Church stayed essentially the same throughout the centuries. That may be true, but there is a good explanation for it. Indeed, N. T. Wright explains that when the Christian church became separated from its Jewish roots, it began to rely upon Greek philosophy in order to explain its doctrinal beliefs.[3] Thus, it became separated from its true narrative.

Wright sums up the true narrative explained by the apostle Paul and writes: “Paul draws on and redeploys an almost bewildering variety of interlocking stories: the story of creation, of humankind, of Israel; of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; of Moses and the exodus and giving of the law; of David and the prophets and the whole history of Israel; of Jesus Himself, summarized in a dozen different ways but always so as to highlight the cross and resurrection as the events through which , as Paul says, one world is crucified and another is reborn and we with it ... “[4]

Thus, when Jesus (Yeshua) was born, it was to fulfill a promise given through Israel. Any attempt to explain Christianity without this foundation leaves it in the hands of a plethora of scholars who often care little about the true foundations of our faith. As a result we have meaningless scholarly debates. Indeed, the Catholic Church uses Thomas Aquinas (who relied upon Aristotle) to present an apology, when the history of Israel and Christ’s fulfillment of a promise made to Abraham is our true apology. In fact, the God developed by Aquinas bears little resemblance to the God who self-reveals Himself in the Old Testament. Kevin J. Vanhoozer writes, “For Aquinas (and here he follows Aristotle) God moves the world but is not moved by the world. This is simply another way of stating what it means for God to be immutable and impassible.”[5]

However, Israel’s God was very moved by His people. Indeed, through the Prophet Hosea, YHWH stated to Israel: “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son ... It was I who taught Israel to walk, taking them by the arms; but they did not realize it was I who healed them. I led them with chords of human kindness, with ties of love” (11:1-4). This is the God who brought the promised Messiah through Israel.

Thus, none of us should cling to a denomination above the Word of God; for, God’s Word tells the complete story. The complete story written by God through His chosen vessels is far superior to any story or narrative that can be created by men. Indeed, when we keep Jesus as Lord of our salvation instead of priests, and bishops, and popes, we rightfully worship the true God.



[1]Bruce L. Shelley, Church History in Plain Language, 3^rd ed. (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2008), 212.

[2]C. T. Marshall, “Waldenses, Waldensians,” in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 2^nd ed. edited by Walter A. Elwell (Grand Rapids: Baker Book, 2009), 1252.

[3]N. T. Wright, “Christian Origins and the Question of God,” in Engaging the Doctrine of God, edited by Bruce L. McCormack (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2008), 21-36.

[4]Ibid., 28.

[5]Kevin J. Vanhoozer, ed. Nothing Greater, Nothing Better: Theological Essays on the Love of God (Grand Rapids: William Eerdmans, 2001), 6.

[Candice]

Very discerning believers here. Praying for the current state of Christ's church at-large before His return.

[Mike Kegel]

I find it interesting the focus of comments center upon 'Soldier's' response, which deserves correction, and has been addressed with Scripture and respected (and correct) Church Historians.

However, may I redirect us to Tozier's main point: modern American Christianity is soulish, selfish, self-serving, senseless, and spineless, with little semblance to the Early church; and he stated this well over 40 years ago!

The American church has become 'tolerant'--we must tolerate homosexuality, including ordaining homosexuals for 'ministry', despite clear Biblical condemnation of such practice and lifestyle. In fact, Scripture mandates one cannot BE a Believer and remain homosexual; we must tolerate abortion because we offend those who disagree a fetus is a human being, despite Scripture clearly declaring life begins at conception; we must tolerate evolution as a scientific fact, despite the Word of God clearly dictating GOD created all things, including man, in His image and likeness; we are soon expected to tolerate euthanasia, assisted suicide, and 'mercy killings', despite the Word calling it murder.

The American church has attempted to please everybody and offend nobody by embracing everything. However, I suggest we examine the words of General Carl Von Clausewitz, who stated, "He who defends everything, defends nothing."

To paraphrase--"He who embraces everything, embraces nothing!" Wake up, Church--be the Church!! Not a popularity club, entertainment hall, recruiting center, or assembly line. Dare to be exactly and only what Jesus called us: disciples...
followers of Jesus Christ, walking as He walked, doing as He commanded, obeying Him, regardless! That will be enough.

[Kenny]

Wake up, Church--be the Church!! Not a popularity club, entertainment hall, recruiting center, or assembly line. Dare to be exactly and only what Jesus called us: disciples...
followers of Jesus Christ, walking as He walked, doing as He commanded, obeying Him, regardless! That will be enough.

Amen - great post Mike

[Pastor Robert Young]

The posts on this topic have been well constructed and Lori you did a fine job presenting your case and Mike I agree to a point concerning the American Church, But we need to remember that when we point a finger at the American Church that includes a wide swath of various groups that hardly represent the true followers of Christ. The churches of many denominations who believe and follow the word of God, Who are truly saved, are not accepting . nor tolerant of blatant sin. We stand against any idea that mocks God's Holy Word by allowing a perverted and ungodly lifestyle or the murder of the unborn. But I agree that we need to do more to wake up the apostate church and we need to do more to stand against the immoral lifestyle of America.

[Charles Miles]

I do find it interesting that this thread is next to the thread about Hebrews 6. The situation with the Church in the US is somewhat similar to what the writer of Hebrews was warning the christian jews about. He kept saying to "stay the course" and not to "drift" into apostacy by agreeing to do things just to keep from being persecuted by those who they knew were wrong.....or should have. The "seeker friendly" programs of many US churches seem to go along simply to get along with the world. The writer keeps showing the jews what happened in the past when their ancestors strayed away from God and His promise, Mike is right about some churches in the US, but not all of them. I fear that the number who are sliding into the seeker friendly mode to attract members are easing toward apostacy, and that number seems to be on the increase. Some of the really big churches, however; have already confessed that they were wrong to embrace the "seeker friendly" mode and are changing their focus. As numbers in the curch decrease, of course there is some concern, but a praying church that preaches the Word, rightly divided, will do well. We must remember that it is not MY/OUR Church. It is the body of Christ and He will overcome...somehow. We should continue to pray, stay in the Word, and follow as the Lord directs from that Word. We are called to be overcomers, citizens of His kingdom, and children of the living God.......He never said it would be easy, but He did say what we are to be and what we are to do. Praise God for what He has done for us, what He is doing for us, and what He has promised us.

Yours in Christ,

Charlie