12 replies to this topic

[Candice]

Do (does) truth and love encompass the DEEPER LIFE?

[Kevin Blankenship]

Hi Candace. I was about to post a similar question, and still will, but I wanted to reply to this one. I believe that the truth (God's Word/ Jesus...the Word) and Love (of the agape variety) are foundational. Paul states:" ...being ROOTED and GROUNDED in LOVE" (emphasis mine). And the TRUTH is, that God loves us. If we believe that God loves us.....He loves us. If we DON'T believe God loves us.....He loves us, stilll. (I'm starting to sound like Watchman Nee, but I don't mind at all). Anyway, hope this helps.
PS. I'm sorry, I didn't connect this with the deeper life. It is my belief that we can have no deeper life, without these foundational components....love and truth. My opinion, my belief.

[Jay Turner]

I think the deeper life is more accurately be seen in 1 Corinthians 13.13, "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." It is all about the relationship. Where there is love, the facts will follow in their own time. You can have a relationship without knowing all the facts, but where there is no love, there really is no relationship.

[Candice]

I think the deeper life is more accurately be seen in 1 Corinthians 13.13, "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." It is all about the relationship. Where there is love, the facts will follow in their own time. You can have a relationship without knowing all the facts, but where there is no love, there really is no relationship.

Yes, I see that hope matters and I didn't consider that in all of this...woudn't abide or care for living the deeper life without hope. Maybe without hope, the deeper life isn't possible because that is necessary part of "living' it v. just pondering about it, studying, reading and discussing?

[Kenny]

Do (does) truth and love encompass the DEEPER LIFE?

Good topic

My first thought on this took me back to when I read Brother Lawrence's "The Practice of The Presence of God" who, through the simplest of everyday activities, was able to achieve a profound intimacy with God. Brother Lawrence was aware of God's presence in even the smallest details of life. It seems to me that he had such a closeness to God that is lacking in most of us, including myself. There have been periods in my life when I walked closer to God than I now do, and was more acutely aware of God's presence in my life. These days, that awareness isn't as common as it once was, however I blame myself for that. Someone once said; "you are only as close to God as you want to be" In my personal experience I have discovered there is a lot of truth in that statement. So basically, to me, the deeper life involves a closeness and acute awareness of God's presence in the believers daily life.

[Jay Turner]

Yes, I see that hope matters and I didn't consider that in all of this...woudn't abide or care for living the deeper life without hope. Maybe without hope, the deeper life isn't possible because that is necessary part of "living' it v. just pondering about it, studying, reading and discussing?

Just imagine for a minute what faith and love would be like without hope. Faith is the complete trust in someone or something. If one's faith is lacking hope, then that faith is flat and powerless. Hope is an integral part of faith. It is the driving force that propels faith forward. Let’s say that God told me that He was going to use me mightily to transform the world in which I live. If for whatever reason I were to lose hope in that ever coming about, though I may continue to hang onto that word in faith, that loss of hope makes what faith I have ineffectual. When you think about it, without hope, can faith truly exist? In like manner, pretty well the same can be said about love.

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life. (Proverbs 13.12)

[Candice]

Hi Jay,

I want to really consider this response regarding hope. I need to collect my thoughts before posting as I tend to go off on rabbit trails. I believe, at this time, hope is somewhat fleeting.

[Charles Miles]

I hope I don`t alter tis discussion of faith by what I am about to do here, but I think the definition of HOPE as applied here is not exactly what we today think of as hope. Today, one might say, boy I sure do hope I win the lottery. The when the lottery isn`t won, the person gets unhappy and loses faith in the lottery. Man, I sure do hope I get to work on time, but I probably won`t. That is not the definition of the HOPE Paul is discussing.

Hope is having full assurance that something is already there. "We wait for our adoption as sons, redeption of our bodies. For in this Hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience." Hope is knowing a thing is there, even if not seen and felt by our 5 senses. We have the "hope" of salvation, but do we not already know we are saved? Granted, faith without hope is an empty faith, and prayer without hope, well I don`t even know what to say about that, but if one has true faith then there is the knowing(the hope) that is the promise given by Father God who says we are saved, and we do have the promises He said we have. This hope is certainly not simply a wish, but is an assured knowing of what is promised and will take place. Without the full assurance(hope) why in the world would one even bother to pray? I don`t pray to a God of chance, I pray to a God of promise. Any other way to pray, for me, would be like going to the casino. I know all of you know all of this much better than I do, but the word HOPE was getting moved a bit off center here.(I think)

Sorry to interrupt this interesting thread. Your brother in Christ,

Charlie

[Candice]

Jay and Charlie, I really appreciate your insights and spurring on to consider these things...

Romans 5 – 1-5. " Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

I’ve been thinking about this topic: truth, love, faith, hope and how they intersect by definition and application – the living it out daily in our lives. It seems to be that faith is already a given when I believe and receive Christ as savior and I know without faith it is impossible to please God. It is his grace. Period. I’m not going to live a life of keeping close to Christ if I don’t have faith. I have faith in Christ and Him alone for my ability to pray and to know Christ is all God sees – not me. I could not pray without Him interceding for me. I know this clearly through experience and what scripture tells me. Now, I’ve got some proven character (not by my own efforts; believe me).

But, through tribulations, we are all tested. Those tests bring a variety of personal changes (sanctification) in each individual believer. We can’t compare our trials and our responses. It is pointless. So, those tribulations bring about perseverance based on my basic faith in Christ’s power through God’s Spirit in me. That perseverance is tested again and again through trials. Soon, we begin to respond to God in faith because we’ve seen Him work in our lives before during trials. That builds godly character. Then, there is hope alas.

I say hope is fleeting (comes and goes) because, I believe, for a while, as we are babies in Christ, it is that way for us. Some people, of course, don’t seem to have such a fleeting hope. But, again, I refrain from comparison. Some of us just don’t trust easily and, if we’ve been disappointed enough in people; we will need to have enough trials of falling on Christ for His power to change that pattern. He knows it all – our past history and responses to people and Himself. Hope is fleeting for a while, until we mature and then it isn’t any longer the “wishing” kind of hope that is tentative. Sin and disobedience makes my hope fleeting when I don’t route the trials in the correct path. It’s always our choice.

This is just my take on it from what I draw from scripture and applying my personal experiences and the experiences of people I’ve known. How can someone get depressed and want to kill themselves and be deemed a believer and not fear hell? I don’t know. But, if depression is a loss of hope, which it appears to be, then does that mean that person has no faith? That’s another thread altogether. I won’t start that up here!
My friend called me last night to tell me she was losing her job as a librarian at our local school due to budget cuts. She is a mature believer, quite a bit older than me, so at 70 years old, she is trusting God completely for her survival. My response was I wanted to call people to start a petition to not only save her job for herself, but also the librarian position for the school. She was calm and knows that God will take care of her. She’s mature enough in her faith (she knows that she knows that she knows) that she didn’t need to go through the perseverance and character building phase any longer. She just seems to move from tribulation straight to hope!! She no longer needs to have her character proven. She knows the LORD. She KNOWS Him. I am so blessed to have her as an example to me. At this point in my walk with Christ, I would not be skipping perseverance and character.

Hope will not always be fleeting. I hope! But, if it is fleeting sometimes, does that mean I don't have faith? And, therefore am not saved??

Does this explanation make sense?

Candice

[Candice]

Look: Abraham was justified by faith. He's a man of faith! But, he didn't have hope when he let his own wife, Sarai, be taken in by Pharoah (twice). He didn't seem to maintain his hope (fleeting?) when he had a son with Hagar! But, he was praised for his faith and was God's friend.

[Jay Turner]

When looking at faith, hope and love, I think it may help to look at them in the context of their relationship with each other.

Scripture tells us that we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength, and that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. Love, as seen here, can be seen as an action, but it can also be seen from the perspective of being a standard, or the law by which we are to live. It is the lense by which we are to view all things. Hope is a driving force that can propel us forward, but like Candace mentioned, it can be fleeting. This is where faith come into the picture. I am seeing faith as being interconnected with our will. Faith is the action where we choose to trust God and to take Him at His word. We choose to accept His forgiveness, healing, salvation, etc.

When it comes to hope and love, it seems that we have to choose to have hope and we have to choose to live in love. Abraham was justified by faith because he chose to trust God and believe in Him over the circumstances of His life. That doesn’t mean that he never lost hope or faith, or that he never failed to act in love. It just means that the overall attitude of his heart and his actions was one of faith.

[Candice]

This is where faith come into the picture. I am seeing faith as being interconnected with our will. Faith is the action where we choose to trust God and to take Him at His word. We choose to accept His forgiveness, healing, salvation, etc.

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This hope is certainly not simply a wish, but is an assured knowing of what is promised and will take place. Without the full assurance(hope) why in the world would one even bother to pray? I don`t pray to a God of chance, I pray to a God of promise.

Agreed. The deeper life requires hope! Clear to me now.

[Candice]

I beieve we need to willingly (the "will") exercise hope through abiding in Christ which creates perseverence and hope. If I choose to pray, read scripture and communicate with God as much as possible, daily, moment-to-moment in order to achieve the end - hope - I will attain the deeper living I so want.