24 replies to this topic

[Gordy]

I do not read Victor Hugo, so I am not an "expert". But I will say that if I wanted to read or watch pornography I would go a different source.

I don't know why a "ministry" would endorse this film, but count me out.

Gordy

[Jay Turner]

I'm not sure where you got the connection between Les Mis and pornography, but it is a great story of redemption and forgiveness.

[Gordy]

I had to read the book while in High School. I got through part of the book (which had sexual connotations) I refused to finish the book. When I told the teacher, she stopped the students reading and changed to another book until she had re-read the book. We never finished the book, The teacher told us that because of the free discussion of sex and of very provocative language that it was deemed--as she said it--pornographic to the core and would no longer read at the high school.

By the way Victor Hugo was a self-proclaimed atheist and humanistic.

[Jay Turner]

Do you see what you are doing? Not only are you condemning the book, based off your partial reading of the story from decades ago, but you are also condemning the musical and the movies based off the story, and condemning the ministries who actually took the time to view it as a whole and see the redeeming qualities of it.

Any story of redemption is going to have the ugly side of life, but you cannot judge based off what you see on the surface. You have to look at the heart and the choices made to go beyond the ugliness, into something more. This is the story of each one of our lives. We have all hit rock bottom at one point or another, but instead of seeing that as the end, we need to realize how that is but a step along the path to redemption.

You can look at a bum begging by the side of the road or a prostitute selling her body. You can judge them as being "sinners" and "heathens" all you want. But you have no idea what they have gone through or the contents of their hearts. You don’t know what God may have already been doing in their lives or how much God may be using them right there where they are. Faithfulness isn’t about appearance, going to church or the titles that people cling to. Many people who are seen as “sinners”, “heathen” and “heretics” are faithful to God and true to where God has been leading them, while many “Christians” "believers" are missing Him altogether.

There is a reason why we are told not to judge, lest we be judged.

[Julie Daube]

Do you see what you are doing? Not only are you condemning the book, based off your partial reading of the story from decades ago, but you are also condemning the musical and the movies based off the story, and condemning the ministries who actually took the time to view it as a whole and see the redeeming qualities of it.

Any story of redemption is going to have the ugly side of life, but you cannot judge based off what you see on the surface. You have to look at the heart and the choices made to go beyond the ugliness, into something more. This is the story of each one of our lives. We have all hit rock bottom at one point or another, but instead of seeing that as the end, we need to realize how that is but a step along the path to redemption.

You can look at a bum begging by the side of the road or a prostitute selling her body. You can judge them as being "sinners" and "heathens" all you want. But you have no idea what they have gone through or the contents of their hearts. You don’t know what God may have already been doing in their lives or how much God may be using them right there where they are. Faithfulness isn’t about appearance, going to church or the titles that people cling to. Many people who are seen as “sinners”, “heathen” and “heretics” are faithful to God and true to where God has been leading them, while many “Christians” "believers" are missing Him altogether.

There is a reason why we are told not to judge, lest we be judged.

You make some very good points, Jay! Also, in response to Gordy's comment that Victor Hugo was a self-proclaimed atheist, I would say that just because an author is an atheist doesn't mean he has nothing of value to contribute to the literary world. There is another issue here as well, and that is the need to engage our culture for the sake of the Kingdom instead of withdrawing from it. Rather than attacking a popular film or literary work that may have questionable content, why not use it as an avenue to initiate dialogue with unbelievers who have seen the movie? This seems much more fruitful than condemning or judging those who have seen the film. The world already sees Christians as judgmental, condemning, and intolerant. Wouldn't it be better to show unbelievers that we are people of grace who aren't always quick to judge?

[Candice]

I do not read Victor Hugo, so I am not an "expert". But I will say that if I wanted to read or watch pornography I would go a different source.

I don't know why a "ministry" would endorse this film, but count me out.

Gordy

Hi Gordy,
I support your heart on this one. To me, we all need to look at it like this: is a movie, literature, art, etc. really what Christ cares about? Is it an end in and of itself? A means to an end?

I saw the musical Les Mis twice over the past 20 years. I enjoyed it. It had it's edgy side. But I believe, when it comes to our individual areas of weakness, etc., we must default to upholding Christ and Him being the attraction.

Example: if someone has a drinking problem that he considers sin, he needs to be lifted up by his Christian brothers and sisters in not sinning and saying something like "oh you're being legalistic or judgemental" is not helpful, but actually be a stumbling block. If another wants to drink a beer or something - fine. That's not his sin area and not a stumbling block for him.

I don't go to R-rated movies because there's always something that will keep running through my mind and I consider it sin for me to see sexuality on screen, etc. because of this propensity for me to overthink on less-than good things. We're to keep our thoughts in-line with Christ's. Am I wrong here?

but, we ought not judge someone else who can view a movie from a very logical point of view. To me, the battle field is in the mind so, no I guess I just try not to start a sin in the mind by looking at some of this stuff. Let each person be aware of what their stumbling block and sin tendencies are and let's support them in staying away from it.

Jesus isn't the literary guy, the frustrated artist or musician we relate to. He is God incarnate. He is perfect. He is Creator. He doesn't need us using any media, venues or anything else as an attraction. I don't really remember Christ being mentioned in this play (movie). Did I miss something here?

[Julie Daube]

Hi Gordy,
I support your heart on this one. To me, we all need to look at it like this: is a movie, literature, art, etc. really what Christ cares about? Is it an end in and of itself? A means to an end?

I saw the musical Les Mis twice over the past 20 years. I enjoyed it. It had it's edgy side. But I believe, when it comes to our individual areas of weakness, etc., we must default to upholding Christ and Him being the attraction.

Example: if someone has a drinking problem that he considers sin, he needs to be lifted up by his Christian brothers and sisters in not sinning and saying something like "oh you're being legalistic or judgemental" is not helpful, but actually be a stumbling block. If another wants to drink a beer or something - fine. That's not his sin area and not a stumbling block for him.

I don't go to R-rated movies because there's always something that will keep running through my mind and I consider it sin for me to see sexuality on screen, etc. because of this propensity for me to overthink on less-than good things. We're to keep our thoughts in-line with Christ's. Am I wrong here?

but, we ought not judge someone else who can view a movie from a very logical point of view. To me, the battle field is in the mind so, no I guess I just try not to start a sin in the mind by looking at some of this stuff. Let each person be aware of what their stumbling block and sin tendencies are and let's support them in staying away from it.

Jesus isn't the literary guy, the frustrated artist or musician we relate to. He is God incarnate. He is perfect. He is Creator. He doesn't need us using any media, venues or anything else as an attraction. I don't really remember Christ being mentioned in this play (movie). Did I miss something here?

Candice, you are not wrong in saying that we are to keep our thoughts in line with Christ's. For this very reason, I pray to have the mind of Christ each and every day. And I agree that Gordy is correct in his desire to avoid anything that may become a stumbling block. However, I don't think it's fair to criticize Christian ministries that saw the film and found some redemptive aspects in it. I also felt that it was rather harsh to equate their watching the movie with viewing pornography.

You wrote, "I don't really remember Christ being mentioned in this play (movie). Did I miss something here?" It sounds like you are saying that for a movie to be redemptive, it has to mention the name of Jesus. But I don't think that's necessarily true. When Christians talk about a film (or book) being redemptive, they often mean that its storyline focuses on redemptive themes, such as forgiveness and reconciliation. For example, I find many of Shakespeare's tragedies to be redemptive, even though they don't necessarily mention Jesus or present the gospel (in my opinion, one of the most redemptive of Shakespeare's plays is "King Lear," which is set in pre-Christian England). I have also found a number of secular films to be redemptive, including "Return of the Jedi" from the Star Wars saga, during which the evil Darth Vader turns from evil and reconciles with his son. "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe," by C.S. Lewis, is also a redemptive book/film, even though it does not mention Jesus by name.

This discussion shows that there is a delicate balance between showing grace and walking in holiness. We should never be a stumbling block to a brother or sister who is seeking to avoid sin. However, we should also be very careful about passing judgment on believers who choose to excerise their liberty in Christ in a different way than we might.

[Jay Turner]

I tend to see the dangers of viewing entertainment as mere entertainment. Instead, I remember that God wants to be relationship with us, wants to speak to us and through us, and can reveal Himself to us through just about anything. When I go to movies, enter into conversations with others, etc, I take them as opportunities to actively seek Him. I simply ask Him that if there is something that He would have me to see through it, that He would help me to see it. Or if there is an opportunity through which He can use me, then that I see the opportunity and step out into it. One thing I will do quite often, is after the movie ends I will ask what people though of the movie. This can open up a dialogue where we can take it out of the realm of simple entertainment and view it as something more. This can help build community. It can also open doors where I can share truth and plant seeds in a natural, non-threatening way.

[Jay Turner]

When I first became serious about my faith, I surrounded myself with other believers and was in church all the time. I got rid of everything and created a bubble around myself protecting me from anything that was vaguely reminiscent of the secular world. Over time, God started to show me that my place wasn't in the bubble that I had created, but instead I was to be a believer out in the world. The thing that I began to realize was that if we are to reach the world for Christ, then we need to be out in the world where the people are. If we are to be agents of healing and change, then we need to be out on the front lines where we can see the need first hand and where we can meet people where they are.

There is the verse in the Bible that says that all things are permissible, but not all things are profitable. Part of what this means to me is that I could go to a secular movie, or go to the bar with some friends and have a drink or two (though I never do), without it coming between God and I.

Part of that is knowing my own limits. For example, I am an ex-smoker who has quit smoking twice. I pretty well know that if I had one drag of of a cigarette, by tomorrow, I would be smoking a pack and a half a day. I am fine being around smokers, but I know that I cannot allow myself to take that first drag.

Also, we need to be open and attentive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. If I feel that God is telling me not to do something, then it is best to heed His warnings because in it, there is probably something that can hurt me or others.

On the other hand, there are times where I find myself in situations where logically it seems like a bad situation, yet I feel that God is saying to do it anyways. Probably about a month ago, a friend of mine brought over the movie, “Antichrist” by Lars Von Trier. Between the name of the movie and the fact that it was borderline pronographic, pretty well everything in me was saying to just turn it off. Yet I felt that God had me there for a reason. Not only did God use it as confirmation to numerous things that He had been showing me over the past couple years, by watching it, it also spurred on an awesome dialogue between my atheist friend and I about God and scripture.

I know that most believers probably aren’t comfortable with what I am saying here, but I think it is important that we find ways where we can get beyond the walls of the church and out onto the front lines. A lot of it is simply living out our relationship with God where others can see Him working in and through our lives, while allowing them the space to observe from a distance. As we love on people and allow them to approach as they are ready, in time they will be drawn.

As we share truth with people, it is good to stretch them, yet we need to remember that the farther we stretch them, the more apt they are to break and to shut down. We should take it one step at a time. We don’t want to give them more than they are willing and able to handle. By sharing a little, then backing off for a while, it gives them time to process, where it is not quite so much of a shock to their system.

[Gordy]

Thank you all for your comments. I had always struggled over movies or some other form of entertainment. Please bear with me as I tend to be brash

Please pray that I may understand the word. I also covet your prayers as I need to learn more.

Again thank you.

[Julie Daube]

Thank you, Gordy, for your kind and gracious words. I think a lot of believers struggle with the whole area of entertainment and the arts, so you are not alone. And a lot of what comes out of Hollywood these days is pretty awful, so it's important to use discernment about what we watch. May the Lord bless you with wisdom and discernment as you seek to better understand His Word.

Grace and peace,
Julie

[Jay Turner]

I think it is safe to say that each and every one of us has our struggles, but I believe that many times those struggles are self imposed. We tend to idealize what a believers life should look like and commit to giving things up and making changes that God is not calling us to make. There is a verse in the Bible that says how God doesn't desire sacrifice, but obedience. What that means to me is that God doesn't want our attempts to live up to the unreachable standards that we all try to create for ourselves. Instead, He just asks that as He directs us to do something or make a certain change, that we act accordingly while knowing He will be with us as we act in obedience.

When God asks us to give something up, most of the time it is because that thing has a hold on our lives. It has become an idol to us. Sometimes that thing has such a strong hold on our lives that we cannot be trusted with it, like with me and my smoking. But other times, God is trying to free us from the bondage that it has over us, so that at a later date He can once again entrust it into our care. Once God frees us from a thing, then He can trust us to help bring transformation to it or use it for His purposes.

While being asked to give something up or make a certain change, one of the hardest things to see is that the thing that we are being asked to give up, others are allowed and potentially even encouraged to pursue. There is no "one size fits all" mold for believers. God created us and values each of us as individuals.

[Candice]

Romans 12: "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual^a act of worship. 2. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3. For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4. Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function..."

There is a reasonable sacrifice. We can't think so highly of ourselves that we put God to the test. Someone struggling with sin needs support, not challenge to get to the edge. It's like you can walk next to the swimming pool's edge and not fall in, walk closer, dipping your foot in the water, totter around and nearly fall in or get on the diving board and do a perfect dive. You can still fall in on walking too close to the edge. Sin is not self-imposed, it is our nature.

[Candice]

Also, I dont' know anything about this book/film being used in ministry. Sorry, not aware of that part of it all. Anything can be used for ministry by God.

[Mark Wood]

http://pjcockrell.wo...ace-in-les-mis/

God's Grace demonstrated in Les Mis,
a good reflection of how this masterpiece of literature reflects the truth of the Gospel through the power of God's common grace

[Gordy]

Question: Does this glorify God?

[Jay Turner]

Question: Does this glorify God?

I'm not totally sure what exactly you are asking, but let me just throw this out there and see if by some chance I hit something...

Sometimes I will play video games or watch a movie with my son. Many times the games or movies will not have any real redeeming qualities in and of themselves, but I believe that the time I spend with my son does glorify God. Not only am I giving him the attention that he wants and needs, but I am showing him that I love him by taking time out of my day to do the things that he enjoys. Plus the dialogues that can sprout as a result of this time spent together will many times speak directly to where he is in his life.

Being a witness isn't always about preaching the gospel. It is also building trust and meeting peoples needs. It is building relationships and being willing to meet people where they are at instead of always expecting them to meet you where you are at. Throughout the gospels, Jesus would feast, drink and associate with tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners of many varieties. He wasn't partying just to be partying, but instead was using it as an avenue through-which he could, in turn, speak into peoples lives. As you may realize, this does have its own potential dangers. You need to know who you are in Christ and it is important to know the Spirit's voice. You also need to know your own strongholds and your own limits, so you can steer away from them as not to fall yourself.

[Mark Wood]

Answer: Yes