15 replies to this topic

[Candice]

"Question: The Bible is important to us personally; we memorize whole chapters of it for truth and meditate on them (as God in Scripture directs us to) for deeper understanding. In this way, the Bible is of great help. But I have to oppose those who teach that the Bible is essential, is vital for anything, especially for salvation. Enoch and Noah walked with God and didn't even have Genesis. Jesus informed us that His sheep hear His voice, as Enoch, Noah, Daniel, Job, and innumerable others did--and still do, since the Lord does not change. "Bibliolatry," the belief that the written word is more important, more to be sought for answers, than the Living Word who gave it, is very prevalent in America's churches. "

How do you see this and should it be addressed? If so, how?

(Copied this from Berean Call newsletter since I thought it interesting towards deeper life questions and discussions. It seems to be a camp divided "out there".)

[Charles Miles]

Interesting perspective on the Word? Paul said, "if anyone comes to you preaching any other gospel than I have spoken to you, let God`s curse fall upon him". Sounds as if we need to know what Paul taught and also what "other gospel" was being presented? What I am trying to say here is that we need a measuring stick to look at what God said. We then make sure that whatever theological "wind" is blowing around lines up with what God said. God will NEVER contradict Himself, so if one recieves a "word" spiritually, it can then be tested against"The Word" as spoken by God. We also learn interesting things, such as just what the "New Covenant" is with us.....it IS written down for us. What are we promised? It is there for the reading, and with the help of Holy Spirit, there for our understanding.

When someone asks us about salvation and the love of God....we have Romans 8. Such a resource for us.

Blessed be the God of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, and Charles Miles,

Charlie

[chipped china]

I believe there are individuals in the world that have been saved without ever seeing a bible. I read about one such person that Richard Wurmbrand met on a street one day. This person didn't know the name of the one she worshiped but was looking for Him. Yes, Christ is the Word but God so graciously gave us the written word too and made it last through the centuries to teach new generations and keep us on the straight and narrow path. Personally, I'd have a tough time without it because I'm not too good at memorizing and it also helps bring me closer to His Spirit. It's vital for my encouragement and relationship with Him.
Interesting precept though. Then again God gave it to us as a gift and I don't turn down His gifts.

[Charles Miles]

China, Yes, I believe that one does not need to have or have seen a Bible to be saved. I personally do not think a Bible saves anyone at all, but the Word that is contained in it will. If I am saved from an eternity in hell by a God who loves me and died in my place.....please, I want to know more about Him, who He is, why He would do that, who I am that He is concerned for my wellbeing, how He did it, and have there been others that had the same thing happen to them. If I am now a child of His, what are my responsibilities and what are my benifits. The Bible is a long love story that was written for me to read about my God and just how much He loves me.

For instance, Tozer said that we often pray and agonize ove choices and decisions that God has already spoken about. There are things God said we are NOT to do....there are things God said we ARE to do...there are things in which God gives us an ability to choose, and wants us to choose. Learning these things will make prayer life much more effective, so I really enjoy the study of my God and His wishes.

Charlie

[Candice]

This topic made me think of a local church that has a sign posted out front with a very large comma in red print "God has not stopped speaking". In other words, the Bible is not the final word. That church also embraces Buddhism and other religions one is "committed to", emergent philosophy for the church, etc. So, it's a potential hazard to get off the Word? Would it be a stretch to say that another "evangelical, bible-preaching" church that shares that building is compromising their witness in some way?

[Jay Turner]

The Holy Spirit can take someone who has never heard of Jesus or how He died on the cross for their sins, and bring them to salvation and even sanctify them. Since they would not, so much, know the source of their salvation or even that they needed a savior, their salvation would take on a different form than how we typically view it.

When we think of salvation, we typically view it from the perspective of someone being presented with the gospel message, then that person making a decision based on the facts that they were presented with. That would be the starting point from which their relationship is built.

Alternatively, think of someone who has a hungry and searching heart. The Holy Spirit could speak to their heart and give them a simple instruction. If they are open, attentive and willing to obey the Spirit’s prompting, they can take a step of obedience to God’s will. If they continue to be obedient to the Spirit’s promptings, they can actually start building a relationship of obedience between themselves and God, though they may not understand it as such.

I think the point is that there are certain mentalities within christianity that are askew. For example, the idea that if you are not a christian, you cannot have salvation. Salvation isn’t based on our understanding of God, our doctrines or theology. We can be in relationship with Christ, and benefit from His death and resurrection, without even knowing who He is.

Another one of these skewed mentalities is that scripture is to be used as a standard by which we judge the things of the Spirit. The Bible can be a good tool to help us along the path in learning the Spirit’s voice, but we should never place our understanding of scripture above where the Spirit is leading us. Our understanding of scripture can be, and ultimately is flawed and incomplete. But the Spirit knows God’s perfect will for every situation that we may find ourselves in. So doesn’t it make sense that instead of relying on our understanding of God’s word, as revealed in scripture, that we turn to the author of that scripture?

I don’t think the author of the original quote is saying that we shouldn’t value scripture. Instead there should be a certain balance and understanding of the role in which it should play. As believers, we have a tendency to set the good things of God above the best things. Every so often, we should go back and reevaluate what is truly important in our relationships with God.

[Charles Miles]

Hmmmmm. Jay, If it`s OK with you, I`ll back out of this discussion at this time.

In Christ`s love,

Charlie

[Candice]

and even sanctify them. Since they would not, so much, know the source of their salvation or even that they needed a savior, their salvation would take on a different form than how we typically view it.

Gentlemen (Charlie and Jay):
Here's the original answer from Berean Call. I did not post their answer since I thought the question was familiar enough to all of us to see some conflict, yet resolution to the quandry. The question is the matter; the answer, as God, does not change. I am sorry if I presented a stumbling block here. It was not my intent. I hear varying forms of this question, i.e. my "holy yoga" friend who believes that salvation comes outside of Christianity...truth in Buddhism (yes, of course, some truth there place by the enemy, or no one would follow it). If we are not BEREANS (as Paul commended those in and of the scriptures), then we stumble. I'm sorry you two. Please forgive my question. But, consider the answer posted:

Response: There is little danger of "Bibliolatry" being seen today, although the invented term itself bears a lot in common with other inventions such as "homophobia." In both cases, each word seems very well designed to pursue an agenda but leads us far away from the truth.

There are other utilitarian sayings, such as "too heavenly minded to be any earthly good," which have been crafted by the adversary to sound clever and to divert attention away from what should really be considered. Actually, if a person is truly "heavenly minded," he or she will be of immense earthly good!

It is true that Enoch, Noah, Job, and others didn't "have Genesis" in their hand. They did, however, walk with God, and it was His Word upon which they fed. There is no logical, compelling reason to doubt that very early on godly men began to record man's interaction with His Creator.

Skeptics like to argue that writing itself didn't widely exist in the time of Abraham. This belief came into popularity in the middle of the 1800s, when the liberal march of heresy was well underway. Liberal "Christian" college teachers put forth the notion that the Bible came after centuries of oral tradition because no one could write in the time of Moses. This folly has been destroyed by evidence of writing that took place 1,800 years before Moses. In addition, linguistic scholars have noted the archaic phrases in the book of Job, and there are also "more references [in Job] to creation, the flood, and other primeval events than any book of the Bible except Genesis" (Henry M. Morris, in "Introduction to the Book of Job," The Henry Morris Study Bible, Green Forest, AR. Master Books, 2012). Bible scholars have a number of other reasons for asserting that the writing of Job preceded Moses' writing Genesis. Simply put, the book of Job is old.

Yes, we memorize and meditate upon the Bible but not just for "deeper understanding." Joshua 1:8 tells us, "This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success."

Many passages in the Old Testament establish the fact that the Scriptures are to be the basis of how we live our lives: "And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates: That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth" (Dt 11:20-21).

You say that the Bible is "not essential?" The Lord Jesus Christ has a far different view. Jesus confronted the two disciples who were on the road to Emmaus (Lk 24:13-27). He rebuked them for their failure to believe the Word of God. According to the narrative, "...beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" (v. 27). In other words, He taught them the essentials.

"Not essential?" Then why did the Lord inspire Paul to write Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"? This clearly is speaking of more than what some call the "Living Word of God" as opposed to the written word of God. "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom 10:14).

There is very little evidence that a presumed Bibliolatry "is very prevalent in America's churches." On the contrary, we are seeing (as we have documented) an increasing rejection of Scripture in favor of mysticism, emotionalism, and "every wind of doctrine" (Eph 4:14). Many self-proclaimed prophets are claiming to have had great spiritual experiences and warn those who would test their words against the Scriptures to "not touch the Lord's anointed."

This is what we should be concerned about in these days. The Prophet Amos warned of a time that sounds very much like today: "Behold, the days come, says the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD" (Am 8:11).

Knowing Jesus is absolutely vital, but how do we know that it is the real Jesus unless we are able to discern between the genuine and the counterfeit? "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him [i.e., you gladly embrace him]" (2 Cor 11:4).

May the Lord give us His balance and the discernment He has promised in His Word.

[Thinker]

Anything that minimizes the Word is dead wrong! Keep in mind, however, two important facts. 1). Christ is the Living Word. The Scriptures are the written Word. The Living Word is the embodiment of the written Word and the wriiten Word is the recorded expression of the Living Word. 2). Only as the Holy Spirit guides us into all Truth is it possible to function by the Spirit as opposed to the "letter." There is nothing that the enemy of our souls wants more than to get us away from the Living and written Word of God. Bibliolatry is to worship the Book as an end in itself. The purpose of the Bible is to provide us with understanding of Spiritual realities. It leads us to trust Jesus and learn of the things of God. This is the real end of Spirit led study of God's Word. As to the time when only portions were available, God spoke through others (oral transmission) and through the parts that were available. How we ought to rejoice for a complete Bible. Faith still comes by hearing and hearing by the Word. (Romans 10:17). Thinker (Ron)

[Candice]

I don't think it could be more well-written and expressed than Tozer (although not a final authority) put it in response to criticism that he was a mystic and involved in nonbiblical spiritual matters:
"Some of my friends good-humoredly — and some a little bit severely — have called me a 'mystic.' Well I'd like to say this about any mysticism I may suppose to have. If an archangel from heaven were to come, and were to start...telling me, teaching me, and giving me instruction, I'd ask him for the text. I'd say, 'Where's it say that in the Bible? I want to know.' And I would insist that it was according to the scriptures, because I do not believe in any extra-scriptural teachings, nor any anti-scriptural teachings, or any sub-scriptural teachings. I think we ought to put the emphasis where God puts it, and continue to put it there, and to expound the scriptures, and stay by the scriptures. I wouldn't — no matter if I saw a light above the light of the sun, I'd keep my mouth shut about it 'til I'd checked with Daniel and Revelation and the rest of the scriptures to see if it had any basis in truth....I don't believe in anything that is unscriptural or that is anti-scripture" (A.W. Tozer, "What Difference Does the Holy Spirit Make?")


I believe that something can sound spiritual, but if it does not line up with God's word, the text, then it isn't useful for spiritual matters. This is where I draw the line. That's why we are here - to sharpen. Use the word, truth and love to do this.

[chipped china]

My personal feeling which means nothing... is that it's possible for someone to be saved without knowing Christ's name. But they are few and have never had the chance to hear the gospel. It's more like children who are too young to understand, fall under the grace of God. I'd say most of the world has heard the Word except for the most closed societies. Even then God made the earth so wondrous that everyone should be without excuse.

Matt.7:
The Narrow Gate

13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell[url="\"/reference/Mt7.13\"]* [/url]is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. 14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it.

Jesus is the the Truth, the Way and the Life. Either you've got Him or you don't. It's by the grace of God least you boast.
Good discussion even though I'm not sure of which I speak, some things are left to God's understanding.

[Jay Turner]

In understanding salvation, you must go back to the fall. That is where we were separated from God and that is where we will begin to understand God’s plan for repairing the breach. The fall is all about judgment. Man judged when God wanted us to rely on His judgment. Because we stopped relying on His judgment of good and evil and turned to our own abilities, we came out from under His authority.

The Holy Spirit is the source of life and life eternal. When we came out from under the Father’s authority, we were separated from the Spirit’s power, which left us totally unable to please the father and live the life He created us to live. We were created to live the life of power, for power is dependent on the authority by which that power was given. Instead we usurped God’s authority over our lives, judging for ourselves instead of letting God be our ultimate judge.

When we live a life of usurped authority, we think in terms of law, standards, ethics, good and evil, and the likes. But God didn’t want these things continually hanging over our heads. He didn’t want us to be thinking or worrying about such things. Instead, He just wanted us to live life worry free so we could focus on our relationship with Him. When He sees something that is dangerous to us or wants us to change, He can just point it out, and as He does, we change accordingly. This is living free from judgment and walking by the Spirit.

When Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden, effectively, we were being separated from the Holy Spirit. The flaming sword placed at the entrance back to the garden is a picture of Christ and the judgment that we brought upon ourselves. We usurped God’s judgment and began judging for ourselves. Because of that, we had to be judged by the judgment that we usurped. For scripture says, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

The Old Testament is a picture of life under God’s wrath and separated from the Holy Spirit. We were given the Law, because a life of judgment is what we chose, not because it was God’s will that we should live by it. Most of the history of mankind is a picture of the process that God is taking us through to break us free from our need to judge, so that once again we can trust God and His judgment.

In Christ Jesus, we see the authority of the Father and the Power of the Holy Spirit. When He took our sins upon Himself, it wasn’t only in a spiritual sense, but we also see it being worked out in a more physical sense. We know we are made up of body, soul and spirit. Of these, our body, our flesh, is in the place of authority over the rest. Because we began to judge and to live according to our stolen sense of authority, restoration with God required our sense of authority to die. When Jesus took our sins upon Himself, His body was broken and His blood was poured out as a drink offering. The body had to be broken to bring us back under the father's authority. Once that happened, the blood, the cleansing, healing and sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit was released upon the world.

Once this happened, our relationship with God was effectively repaired to it’s original state. Humanity as a whole, no longer sits in that place of usurped authority. From a legal standpoint, we have been returned to the state in which we were in before the fall. There is no separation between man and God. We are no longer judged according to our sins and we should no longer even think in terms of the law.

The law and scripture were never meant to be permanent fixtures, but instead as band aid fixes or stepping stones. God gave them to us in our time of exile and separation. The Law was meant to teach us the harshness associated with mankind's attempt to live under his own authority instead of God’s.

The written word, on the other hand, was God’s voice in a time when the Israelites chose not to let Him speak to them personally. During the years of Jesus ministry here on earth, He became that voice. He became the living word of God that walked among us. But after His death, He asked the Father to send another, the Holy Spirit, to live in our hearts, to teach us, to lead and to guide us, and become the word of God written upon our hearts.

Mankind tends to have a very short memory. We can forget things from one moment to the next, not to speak of how much we can forget from one generation to the next. In many ways, the Bible was meant as a history book. It was given to us to remind us of where we came from, as a people, and all that God has been taking us through, throughout the millennia, while He is freeing us from our need to judge for ourselves. It is a collection of the stories of that cloud of witnesses, reminding us that we are not alone in our struggles and reminding us of God’s faithfulness throughout the ages. Scripture also gives us tangible examples of what it means to love, to live a life of faith and what it means to walk by the Spirit.

The Bible is a lot of things, but it was never meant to be God’s final word to His people. It is a tool to help sustain us while He continues to bring His plans to completion. It is yet another stepping stone on the path to God’s greater plans for His creation, but the Holy Spirit is God’s chosen voice to His people. The Spirit is the lifeblood of the body. If we know the spirit’s voice, we are of Christ and have salvation, for Jesus said that His sheep know His voice. But when we put our faith in the message, but don’t know the voice of the Holy Spirit, can we truthfully say that our relationship with God is any more real than someone who knows and is obedience to the Spirit’s promptings, even if they don’t know the source of their salvation?

[chipped china]

Jay, that was a lot to ponder and with much truth. I still can't get over the fact that Jesus, God with us, walked the earth and needs that recognition for salvation to occur. But then again before Jesus and the Holy Spirit came there were still many saved for eternal life with Him. I'm still struggling with this.
Are you saying there are people who have heard the gospel, don't necessarily believe in Jesus that are still saved because the Spirit lives in them?

[Jay Turner]

I know this is a tough subject. It is never easy when long held beliefs are brought into question like this, especially when it comes to the things of God. I will try to answer your questions as best I can and give you my perspective, yet I realize that ultimately this is between you and God. That is the way it is with all things of faith. Try to keep in mind that I didn't come to these conclusions overnight. This is a path that God has been leading me down over the past 5+ years.

Are you saying there are people who have heard the gospel, don't necessarily believe in Jesus that are still saved because the Spirit lives in them?

There are many reasons why people reject the idea of God. Sometimes there are deeply seeded hurts that need to be healed. Sometimes there are preconceived notions of who God is or how He works that prevent them from accepting God intellectually. That doesn't necessarily mean that their hearts are hardened toward Him, just that there are still walls up that have yet to be torn down. There is a saying that God works from the inside out. He starts in our hearts, works out into our mind, will and emotions, and in time into our bodies. It is a process of pruning and growth that goes on all throughout our lifetime.

[chipped china]

That makes sense and is even beautiful. I know that if we are His, He will even put off our death until we finally come to Him so our salvation is complete. That is why we are not to judge; that person's salvation is between him/her and God. Salvation may come the moment before death. I still can't get around the fact that Jesus told His apostles to preach the gospel through out the world, and to tell people He is the Truth, the Way, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except by the blood of Christ.

[Jay Turner]

As I tried to point out in my long post, the imagery behind blood of Christ is a picture of the Holy Spirit being released upon the world, which couldn't happen until the debt for our sin was paid. The Spirit is the one who draws us, purifies us, sanctifies and empowers us to live the life that we were created and called to live. I do believe that there can be salvation outside of the gospel message, but there is a level of intimacy and fulfillment in knowing the source of your salvation.

Something to think about... Acceptance of the gospel message doesn't necessarily lead to a life of walking in the Spirit. I know there is the story in the Bible where the apostles ran into some believers who never received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. One interpretation is that they had intellectually accepted Christ into their lives, but had yet to have the encounter with the Spirit. I believe that this is something seen in the church quite often. Believers accept and get caught up in the intellectual aspects of Christianity, but never enter into the life in the Spirit that they were meant to live.

On the other hand, for those who have the life walking and living in the Spirit, but don't know the source of their salvation, there will be aspects of the experience missing. A large part of the blessing of salvation is the knowledge that Christ died for our sins. That knowledge can be a driving force to continue moving forward in our relationship with God. Though the Holy Spirit can work in the background, drawing people into a relationship with God, until they know the source of their salvation, their relationship with Him will be incomplete, thus reemphasizing the importance of preaching the gospel message throughout the world.