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Help my local church and International House of Prayer?


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#1 iaveteran

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

I left word of faith and the Dominion theology and churches and thought I would be safe in a CMA church. I am missions driven and loved their devotion to God's word. But lately we are becoming Seeker Friendly. A lot of fix me I'm a broken Christian and community survey driven Sunday school topics and sermons. Not one single bible based Sunday school. Now our young people or going to other church's (IHOP connected) and come back with gold dust on them. Somebody help me I'm ready just to stay home. Where does the CMA as a denomination stand on the New Apostolic Reformation, word-of-faith and Seeker friendly church's. I will understand if no one wants to discuss this because of the backlash.
please I really just want to know.


#2 Jay Turner

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 04:30 PM

I have never been a part of a seeker-sensitive church, so I cannot comment on its practice. I tend to value gleaning the good before discarding the bad. So, my question is, what positive things can we learn from the Seeker-Sensitive church?

#3 iaveteran

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

I understand that common ground can be found, but not at the cost of doctrine. Seeker friendly churches value growth charts and statics'.

So they survey their communities and ask them what would get them to church. Then they do it and the church adds lots and lots of attendees.

I have no problem with reaching out to your communities.



So to answer your question:



Seeker friendly churches listen, have programs and entertainment that will keep people coming back. provide a place for social interaction.

That is all good.



My problem is with not taking care of the spiritual needs of the loyal members of the church; ie; Sunday school classes that studies God's word. we usually have 4 classes and this quarter not one is studying the word.

1. Dieting and self esteem

2. Finance

3. Parenting

4.Lifes healing choices.

This is a seeker friendly schedule with sermons on eating God's way and inviting outside groups in to entertain so that we can have "decisions" for Christ.



Where is God in all of this?

Okay enough for now.

#4 elizabethcog

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:56 PM

Just trust Jesus and listen with your heart for His leading you,perhaps you could lovingly and sincerely bring your concerns up to your pastor in private and he may have some insight,and never forget we "go" to church to show love and praises for God our Father but in essence we are the church everywhere we go,peace love and prayers in Jesus name friend
Jesus and Jesus alone saves=D

#5 Julie Daube

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

Greetings, and thanks for your questions! I work in the Commincations Office at the C&MA National Office, so I am hoping that I may be able to help you. The C&MA Web site is a great place to find out where the denomination stands on a variety of issues/doctrines such as evangelism, missions, etc. (and The Alliance is a missions-driven organization). Here is the place to find out what The Alliance believes:

http://www.cmallianc.../about/beliefs/

Hope this helps!
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#6 iaveteran

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:52 PM

First of all thanks to everyone who has responded.

To Elizabeth; I have talked to my Pastor. He understands how I feel, BUT, "YWAM and IHOP "statement on salvation is close to ours.

So he says we can agree and just teach our doctrines on the follow-up after they leave town. You have to understand that at 62 years, Pastor of word of faith /Dominion church for over 15 years, I understand where this is headed. I step down when and no longer Pastor because they regarded the Bible as just another source. My grandchildren will be involved, and I am scared. I trust God's word over everything even my feelings. I have a passion and love for His word and that is the only reason I did not get sucked in. I love the CMA's focus and passion for missions and biblical doctrines. I just am seeing my church, I am a member, slowly headed down the road of stats over the "public reading of scripture. Thank you for responding, In Christ Grip Together.



To: Julie The CMA web site is one of the reasons I started going to a CMA church. It was their stance on spiritual gifts. The denomination stressed fruits over "tongues" as evidence of a spirit filled life. CMA see that the spiritual gifts are still around for the body today. I came from a background that abused the gifts and all their focus was on the gift instead of the giver. I guess everyone failed to see the "Gold Dust" deal because no one responded to it. The youth are being attracted by the outrageous "experiences". the experiences are taking the place of Jesus.

My original question where does the CMA stand on these outrageous experiences.

Thanks again to everyone but I guess I opened a can of worms nobody wants anything to do with. I understand we should always walk in love toward others. But compromising, I just can't go there.

#7 Joan Phillips

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

@ iaveteran, I also work in Communications at the C&MA National Office. We have created valuable resources that are perfect for Sunday school classes and small group Bible studies. We call it C&MA DNA, which consists of two Bible studies: one is a 5-week study on the deeper life, knowing Jesus as Savior, Sanctifier, Healer, and Coming King. The second is an 8-week study called Alliance Core Values. Both really are meant for everyone, not just Alliance.

Perhaps you could start a study using these materials, inviting those who are "ready to dig deeper in the the Christ life." You can find these resources on the C&MA Web site but clicking on the Resources link. Maybe God is calling you to lead the way to the Deeper Life. :-) Just a thought.
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#8 Julie Daube

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

iaveteran, I totally understand your concerns and am glad you asked where the C&MA stands on these experiences. Just so you know, I am in the process of finding someone here at the National Office who can give you a direct answer to your specific question and who can articulate the C&MA's official position on the subject (this is a very busy time for a lot of us right now, so it may take a little while). Please keep checking back in this forum for a response.

I didn't respond to your "gold dust" comment because I didn't quite understand what you meant. Could you please explain this more? Thanks!

#9 iaveteran

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

Thanks for the responses. I really do appreciate all of your comments and helpful suggestions. The Gold Dust comments pertains to a young lady from our church youth group who went to a church in Ankeny that is associated with IHOP(international House of Prayer) . A quote unquote word of knowledge was given. "A 23 year old young woman God is calling you up for prayer about depression" Well our 16 year old after a few minutes started to think it was her, because her birthday was on the 23rd. She went up and everyone said yes it was her. They prayed and land hands and then took her to another woman and had this 16 year old pray for her. They had her hug this lady while she prayed. When she was finished and took her hands away they all started to shout and say look at the gold hand prints you left on the lady's shoulders and now your hands are covered. well all the youth know about and think it was God.



This is the type of "outrageous" stuff that I fought against for 15 years.

God (Holy Spirit) doesn't wok in generalities with prophecies/words of knowledge. This young ladies mom is in our cell group and came all excited about the "Gold Dust". This lady loves the Lord. I believe in answered prayers, words of knowledge and encouragements, I just don't think or believe vague broad words. The fact they led her to this woman sends my red flags flying. I had a close friend who went to a local church but kept going to this Ankeny church and IHOP in KC seeking the next big thrill. He was my Timothy (young man whom I had a weekly one on one in scriptures with.) I pleaded with him about seeking a new experience. 6 months after my year was up the thrills stop. He went in depression and hanged himself. Maybe now you know why I'm just a little suspicious this type of stuff.

Anyway that's the short version.

Thanks Joan I will check it out.




#10 Jay Turner

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 09:47 PM

iaveteran,

When I asked, "What positive things can we learn from the Seeker-Sensitive church?", it wasn't an attempt to push that model of doing church. Personally, I see good and bad with both the Seeker-Sensitive and the Bible-Believing church models. The thing is, there is no rule stating that you have to pick one model and stick with it. Why not take the good from both and create something new. As Jack Carter, the sheriff on Eureka once said, "Sometimes the best way to win a battle is not to fight at all."
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#11 iaveteran

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:02 AM

Thank you Jay for your input. I have appreciated all comments from everyone.

#12 Julie Daube

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:29 AM

Great comment, Jay! I loved Eureka and wish it hadn't ended so soon.
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#13 Julie Daube

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:23 PM

Thanks for explaining about the gold dust, iaveteran. That would send red flags up for me as well. And I am so sorry about what happened to your friend.

I am also sorry that I haven't been able to get you an answer as to the official C&MA stand on such manifestations. While I may not be in a position to speak for the C&MA in this matter, I am confident that the leadership here would encourage believers to "Test everything. Hold on to the good" (1 Thes. 5:21).

Blessings to you,
Julie
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#14 iaveteran

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:58 PM

Thank you Julie, I know this is a touchy subject that no one wants to "touch". Again I appreciate all of the feed back from everyone.
Bob Colby

#15 Chet

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

Iaveteran
In reference to your "Gold Dust" question, I have been around for a while and have been rather non commital on any theological camp. Having been saved in a conservative non-denominational church, spent 2 years in a Baptist affilliated college and three at an Alliance affilliated college I received exposure to what I call the breadth of our faith. I questioned the issue of tongues until I attended a Sunday service at a Full Gospel church in Michigan where it seemed apparent to me that God immediately answered my silent prayer, before I was even finished praying, in a way that resolved my dilemma about tongues in the modern church. I was involved in the Vineyard Church and witnessed and experienced things that were definitely out of my comfort zone and current way of thinking. Some were very good and the fruit that resulted was very good. Some I could see no fruit or the fruit that I saw only served to diminish God's blessing.
The Gold Dust, I was at a Vineyard conference where gold dust was reported to be over a group of people. I did not see it but that does not mean that it wasn't there. I also recall reports of this happening at the Assemblies Brownsville Revival. This is not to say that their are not churches where the Spirit of God is still in charge and that there are physical manifestation, but as history proves with most movements that God allows great blessing upon, after a while some of the leadership begin to think that it is their Ministry and they now know how to order it. They slip into mechanical acts of "worship" and proclaim blessing and presence that is not there, and like the emperors new clothes, the people are too embarrassed to say differently. From what you describe it sounds like this person has gold dust on her shoulders and back and and that there is contact transfer that leaves golden hand prints on the woman and gold dust on the young ladies hands.
All that happens in the Spirit is to draw one closer to God and to bring glory and honor to Him, not just the excitement of the experience. If there is the fruit of a closer walk and a freedom or deliverance from a bondage then the event may have been real; if not then it was probably the workings of people trying to manufacture or maintain what has been lost. God will not be put in a box by anyone and He is free to move in whatever way He sees fit to increase faith, trust and worship in His children. It is not the manifestation but the result of the manifestation and the testing of the spirits to see if they are of God(1 Jn 4:1). We must be careful not to call what is of the Holy Spirit of the devil(Matt 12:22-32) For Paul told the Thessalonians "for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.(1 Thes 1:5) and the writer of Hebrews said, "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will. (Heb 2:4). So then we must discern what is of God and what is not with great care.
The "Post Modern" church seems to have the belief that they must embrace the sensiblities of post modern thinking rather than present the full counsel of God to the people and trust and believe that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin and instructs the believer in the Word. John 8:31, 32 tells us that if we continue/abide/dwell in His word then we are truly his disciples and that we will know the truth and the truth will set us free. There are no other practices nor teachings of man that can bring us to this place. Sola Scriptura, Scripture Alone, was the belief and practice of Martin Luther and if we hold to the same and trust our Gods promise that as we pray and ask God to open our eyes to behold wonderful things from your law (Ps. 119:18) that the Holy Spirit, as you read through the word again and again, will bring all that He says to your remembrance(Jn 14:26) and that the annointing of the Father shall teach you(1 Jn 2:27).
Finding a church that you can grow in and contrbute the gifts that God has given you to share with his church is not an easy task in these last days, but do not give up. It is only as a complete body that we can thrive and survive(1 Pet 5:8).
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#16 iaveteran

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

thank you chet for your input.

#17 Julie Daube

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:37 AM

You're welcome, Bob. It is a touchy subject, but I don't think that's the reason your question hasn't gotten a response from leadership here as of yet; I think that is due more to extremely busy schedules (including travel schedules) and the fact that some do not have the margins to read these forums regularly and therefore may not have seen the question. But even without knowing the "official" C&MA position on the subject, I feel confident enough to say that our leadership would encourage testing the spirits (including any manifestations) to see if they are of God.

On that note, I really liked Chet's response and was glad he mentioned that verse from 1 John. There is indeed a delicate balance between testing the spirits and calling what is of the Holy Spirit of the devil. May God give us wisdom and discernment in these matters.

#18 Mark Wood

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:19 PM

When you went to the Pastor and Elders and discussed the situation with them, what was their response?
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#19 iaveteran

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

I talked to Associate Pastor because Senior Pastor was gone. We spent over an hour on the subject. He agreed with me but said during the discipleship phase when the YWAM team left we could disciple them in our doctrine. I disagreed and said that it may take awhile but seeds will already be planted in our youth.


I think this is it. The other 2 pages i just type up in Word probably needs to be left unsaid. Again thanks for everyone responses.

#20 dominicjustice

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Posted 09 February 2013 - 07:04 AM

Am also a refuge from the Word of Faith movement and the IHOP community. Would agree with the basic gist of what everyone's saying and find this thread echoing much of what resonates within. It's good to see, hear and feel others put it down on ink and paper-- well, bytes and bytes... ;)