34 replies to this topic

[Lori Smith]

ladyharley,

I really appreciate your comments regarding the need for Christians to walk rightly according to mandates given to us by Scripture. However, I disagree with the premise that we have to be "in church" to show our obedience. Early Christians were encouraged by Paul to assemble together despite threats of persecution that they might encourage and edify one another in the faith.

However, when the Romans under Constantine combined church and state, they changed things. Indeed, they claimed to have chief authority in matters pertaining to salvation. What they in fact did, was replace God's authority with their own. This was the whole fight that took place during the Reformation. Luther claimed that Scripture was man's chief authority, while the church claimed they had chief authority since they had decided what would be placed in the canon (Scriptures). Luther countered that Jesus gave Scripture its authority.

The Reformers argued this point well, and the Protestant churches we see in America were birthed through the Reformers. They never did take the church all the way back to its roots however. Indeed, the early church was rooted in Judaism, and realized that Jesus was the fulfillment of it. What developed later was quite different.

I say all of this because there are many who are not satisfied with what Luther birthed ... they are looking to take it a bit further. They desire the intimacy of God and the intimacy of their brethren. Certainly there is nothing wrong with leaving the institutional types of settings that are really only one step removed from Catholicism. That doesn't mean that sin is condoned. That is a separate issue entirely.

I think we are in a time of transition. Christians are seeking their roots. Some will err, and others will find refreshing communities of believers. When the latter happens, it's a good thing. Thus, as long as a Christian is submitted fully to God and His Word, I think we should be given the freedom to congregate as we choose.

Blessings,
Lori

[Kevin Blankenship]

I must say that I agree with Lori's assessment. How many times have I been beat over the head with the scripture in Hebrews: Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as is the manner of some.
Many use this scripture today to force feed institutionalized Christianity down our throats and this not not wholly unlike the Jewish believers trying to force the gentile believers to be circumcised.

[Brian Elmer]

The gospel is the good news of the kingdom of heaven and our heavenly Father who desires to have relationship with us. He dwelt with us in the garden, we then said "we want to be in control". Then the Bible moves to showing the effects of man 'at the wheel'. Hasn't been too good, has it? The New Testament brings Jesus on the scene - God's provision for the reconciliation of mankind. Amazing Love, how can it be? To us who have received, it has become the power of God unto salvation! We simply surrender control and trust Him (salvation). In the close of the scriptures, we find the last 2 chapters showing man finally dwelling with God again - as He always intended. Amazing grace!

My struggle with the 'seeker sensitive' church is the watering down or removing valuable pieces of the Christian faith so that folks will 'like Jesus'. It would appear as though this is not the message of reconciliation and sanctification (transformation) but simply drawing a crowd and filling seats. When we fail to preach the gospel, I am not sure ministry is really life-changing. We simply end up trying to keep 'the customer' happy. We lose our focus. Hence, what becomes the focus of the church? The glory of God or keeping the customer? If the focus becomes 'the seeker', then God is not glorified. God is the focus. The mission is then our response to our encounter with God - to make disciples - to be ministers of reconciliation... on God's terms, not our own.

More than anything, I believe it's the transformed life of a person who's had an encounter with God and the love of the body of believers that are the best testimony to the gospel. Not the methods of man's design, but the working of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man. In our church, we have seen God by His Holy Spirit begin to transform the lives of people. Not with a special 'program(s)' or modern method(s), but as we allow the Holy Spirit to transform us (surrender control)... the effects impact those around us and we have seen growth. Folks will see the grace of God in us as we not only walk in His grace, but reflect it to those who desperately need it around us. When the body of Christ lives out life in God's grace, it will make a HUGE impact on others.

I do believe that it is not just the 'seeker' movements that can get off focus, but the other 'sides' of the church as well - legalism & liberalism. Both lose focus on the the grace of God and the ministry of reconciliation. Churches who focus on legalism think that control of people and their behavior is the key to Christianity. The problem? We are left trying to 'fix' ourselves with our own efforts. Liberalism, on the other hand, has stopped preaching the theology of Christianity (the gospel) and focused on good works and not the power of transformation. Both are as bad as some 'seeker sensitive' settings. I would challenge folks to get back to the teachings of Christ and the early church. We are so far removed from that, that no wonder the message of the Church is not transforming lives.

Examine 2 Corinthians 5 on reconciliation and our response to it. Powerful stuff.

[Lori Smith]

Brian,

That's spot on! Awesome words, and a hearty amen to everything you wrote.

[landonmark]

Hi Brian,

It has been a while since we communicated last- I pray that you are well and blessed as you pursue the things of Christ.

I just wanted to commend you for your comments with regard to the "seeker sensitive" issue. As Lori said, I think they are spot on.

Blessings!
Mark Landon

[Brian Elmer]

Mark... continuing on the journey... trying to gain insight on what Jesus taught and how he taught it. I think many times the 'western believer' has missed the message of the gospel and in turn made the faith more driven by methods and behavior modification. In turn our churches are filled with people who don't have victory in Jesus and are still depending too much on their own efforts. I have been reading writings of Dallas Willard, who I had seen quoted by many contemporary writers. His insights have caused me to dig deeper than just what I had 'always been taught'. It wasn't all wrong, but just not enough.... he discusses 'the more'.

Blessings,
Brian

[Candice]

I am so relieved that others are like-minded on this topic. My husband and I went for a hike today and talked about our church "dilemna" - meaning we are at a point of just not going any longer. I don't know if we'd be forsaking the gathering (of believers) if we aren't walking together in the SPIRIT OF GOD.

[Candice]

Oh, and also, as I look at websites of local churches, one common feature is "worship style" as a heading or our "values". "What is most important to us? People".
Ugh! Wrong!

[Brian Elmer]

Candice... I am sorry for your discontentment in the church. If you do leave the church, please try to find a place where the body functions in the Spirit. Where the Bible isn't just taught and preached but where the body (horizontal) exhibits and administers grace. We need the body of Christ. We play a role in God's intention for healing and His work in the lives of others. The body is to function as a reflection of Him and His Word. The reason many never are whole is because the body doesn't exhibit the truth of the Word. I know in our church I just started exhibiting grace and avoiding condemnation of people. Interesting passage John 3:16, 17... Jesus did not come to condemn but to save. Funny thing, western Christians too often judge others by their sin. Kind of like 'the woman caught in adultery" (John 8). Notice Jesus did not identify her by her sin - the teachers of the law and Pharisees did. Did he approve of her sin? No. He said 'go and sin no more'. The gospel is 'good news' of redemption for man. Also notice the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7). Did he condemn the people? No... He taught them about life in the Kingdom of Heaven - a different economy than the Kingdom of Man. Funny how we condemn folks, try to get them cleaned up, and practice 'right behavior' without allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work. Condemnation is the 'plank in our eye'. We are to tell the good news... God has provided a way for the redemption of man by offering reconciliation to Himself! We then become ministers, ambassadors, of reconciliation... good news!

[Candice]

Brian,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate being able to chat with a pastor about it because you come from a specific perspective.

We've asked if we can serve in our current church. I felt led to start a "Griefshare" group, but was told "no" you can't serve in this church if you're not a member. They go through a specific membership where you're literally voted in to the church. We just are not led to follow that legalism. We go to church, and we've introduced ourselves to others for three years over and over again. People go in, sit and listen and leave as fast as they can. It is dead. We attend Sunday school hoping to get more intimate fellowship....same thing. We're not judging or condemning; I think it's the other way around. If you're not from this town, you're a foreigner no matter what church you go to. Except one tiny Calvary Chapel of 12 people, 8 of which are over 65 years. This just doesn't work for our family. The focus is on world events, preparing shelters, etc. This is such a rural area without choices that we just believe it's ok to stay home at this point.

We don't just want to go and get fed, but to exercise, but this seems to be the pattern here .... completely seeker sensitive or just dead.
Becoming without hope of anything happening here.
Pray

[Brian Elmer]

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate hearing your heart. My son and his wife are in Cheyenne and have said things are quite different in the west. Good churches are far and few between. Of course, the mountain west is less densely populated as well. Perhaps you should directly pray for another couple who shares the same desire. Who knows --- it may not even be in the church you attend. I am not saying that our church is 'all there', but there is evidence of the church changing/transforming in many cases. I cultivate it in the ministry settings I am in. In time it seems it's also a deep longing of others to be waking in a growing, joyful relationship with Christ.

Our church is 125 years old. One of the oldest CMA churches in the country. 3+ years ago our church burned to the ground. To be honest, a 'make or break' scenario. The morning after the fire, one 89 year old member said it well - "I wonder what God is doing now?" A clear perspective that needed to be voiced. After all the 'things of the past' (possessions and settings) were gone, there were 2 choices: Ask what the 89 year old asked or live in the past - mind and soul. Praise God, in time, He has 'began a good work in us'. What I found is sometimes it takes one person who God is transforming, to be used of Him. Not taking all the credit myself, but I am humbled to see how God used the work He was doing in me to stir something in the heart of others. Slowly but surely, as I yielded to Him, I lived out more clearly the grace received from Him. Has it been easy? No. Did I have a master plan devised to attempt this? No. I have just walked in a way to reflect the savior... as He leads.

Without going into the whole story, our church was in serious decline - divided in personal preferences, etc. Legalism was a part of the scene for years. We had a great missions heart and God used us, but 'old age' and inward turmoil was taking it's toll. Now a few years later, God has begun a new work! The heart of the church is changing! God is drawing people to Himself and we are increasing - the first time in years! We have no '2-5-10 master plan', as the "church growth gurus" have encouraged. We have just decided we are to make disciples and many of us are just personally allowing transformation to occur in our lives. God is doing a work!

Blessings... pray for how God wants to use you to be apart of the beginnings of something new!

[Charles Miles]

Brian, Our little church in West Point, MS is certainly not immune from the lack of growth problem, and we invited some "experts" to look at the situation with us. Well, as expected, we certainly got suggestions. We are now having meetings to decide how th work through the problem. As an elder, I am involved in all this, and quickly learned that applying worldly solutions to a spiritual problem just simply won`t solve it. It may LOOK like it is being solved, but it isn`t. The message of the gospel is not the problem...it is the solution! Maybe we christians need to vary slightly in the way we present the gospel, but never change the message in an attempt to stimulate growth of the church membership numbers.
As one of our older saints put it early this morning..."When we stop talking and teaching Jesus, we just start wasting our time". I wanted to stand up and cheer! Mabe we can talk about HOW we talk about Jesus and HOW we show the love of God through Jesus, but we should never stop doing that every day.
In Christ`s love,

Charlie

[rosesinthedesert]

My husband and I have recently left an Alliance Church. I am not sure it could be labeled seeker sensitive, however it could be labeled as part of the emergent church movement. The pastor and his wife were I believe committed to serving the Lord. However, he is young, recently received a graduate degree, and then things began to change. His sermons changed, his dress, his spoken beliefs and his ideologies, or so I perceived. I often used to pose questions to him, not to stump him or put him on the spot, but I wanted to find out why he believed the way he did. I never could though since I could never get an answer. This was extremely frustrating to me. Having a pastor with a pastor's heart is a blessing. However, this man clearly portrayed and spoke to such that he did not believe in the traditional duties of a pastor. This was very evident. I became more and more disengaged from the church and found myself even hating to go. I was also a children's church teacher. At this point, I can truly believe that the Holy Spirit spoke to both my husband and myself and had us leave the church. We could no longer justify tithing to the CMA since the mission view became very distorted also, as evidenced by some of the young missionaries that came through. I am at such peace since leaving. I believe that we are rapidly approaching the end times and the gospel is being replaced by a distorted gospel that is "not offensive" to others. We are to be true to what Paul said "I preach Christ and Him cruicified". It is the power of the gospel and the leading of the Holy Spirit that draws and changes lives. We do not, we are just agents and servants of Christ. The church should not be run by modern day business models. I should be led by the leading of the Holy Spirit and by corporate prayer so that the church can know the heart of Christ.

[Kenny]

My husband and I have recently left an Alliance Church.

So where did you end up?

[rosesinthedesert]

Kenny - we do not go to any church at the moment. This is a very small town without many choices. We rely on our own personal studies and listening to the teachings of Ravi Zacharias.