24 replies to this topic

[Charles Miles]

Maybe the problem some of us encounter with this sermon is simply the limitation of the language that we all must use to discuss spiritual concepts using a physical medium(language). I do want to ask a question here, and again it just may be semantics, but are we to consider ourselves "slaves" of God or are we "children" of God? I do understand that we are to do the Father`s will and that may mean following certain "rules" if you will, as a young child must follow the specific instructions of parents. But as we reach a more mature state, as a child reaches the age of accountability, are not we then considered "family members" and "joint heirs with Christ"? This would seem to be a totally different condition than "slave", although the differentiation may be a fine line. Slaves in a household are not equal to children of the Master, even though some of the tasks may appear to be similar. Just a thought and a question.

[Travis Richey]

Candice,
I've listened to this message, and I hear a preacher tackling a very difficult subject. I have heard at least three times where he specifically says that salvation is not by works, but by grace, and one of those times, near the end, he talks about bearing fruit being seperate and apart from salvation...about it having to do with rewards, and not being saved. I do hear him speaking about some who profess to be saved, but really aren't...and he backs those statements up with Scriputure, as he does all his statements. If I claim to be a Christian, and I am not changed in the least little bit in my actions, attitudes, thoughts or words...then I believe I do have to question if my salvation is real or not. The Bible is clear that having the Holy Spirit in us begins the process of the fruits of that Spirit being made minifest within us. There has to be change...however small or gradual it may be, but I should be able to look back 6 months, 2 years...or however long...and see that God has brought me from there to where He has me now, and I should be able to see that I am more loving, more joyful, more self-controlled...and less angry, envious, jealous, lustful, or whatever my weaknesses are. That is what bearing fruit means...it means that the fruits of the Holy Spirit are beginning to grow within us, and that the fruits of the sinful nature are diminishing. Jesus is becoming Lord and Master of our lives, instead of me keeping myself on that throne of my heart. I would ask that you and your husband become as did the Bereans when they heard Paul speak....and examine the Scriptures that this speaker uses, and ask the Holy Spirit to bring you discernment as to their meaning for you.

Charles,
I hear your words, and I agree with you wholeheartedly...our language is totally inadequate to explain the things of God. But when it comes to the use of the word "slave", I don't believe our English translations of the Bible use it nearly as often as it should be used. But even at that, it is difficult to read the Letter to the Romans without seeing this concept of being a slave to God and to Righteousness as anything but what it says it is. I believe we have the story of Israel's deliverance from Egypt and journey to Canaan as an example to us of the life we each one have in Christ. We are delivered from bondage to sin, and begin the journey to the Promised Land. The Israelites had to rely totally on God for food, for water, to know when to go and when to stay...they were completely under God's care, relying on Him for their very lives...and yes, they still had hard, rebellious, complaining hearts...but they were still slaves to God during this journey. Shouldn't we make our journey from our own "Egypt" of sin and on to heaven with the same reliance upon our God Who delivered us and promises to continue to deliver us? I think that as we mature and realize our own inadequacies, we become more of a slave to God. As I discover that giving up everything and giving in to God to supply my needs is really to become totally free...I gladly submit myself to Him, knowing that He will never leave me, nor forsake me.

May we all come to understand the prayers that have been prayed on our behalf;
^{Ephesians 1:17} I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. ¹⁸ I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, ¹⁹ and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

^{Ephesians 3:14} For this reason I kneel before the Father, ¹⁵ from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. ¹⁶ I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, ¹⁷ so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, ¹⁸ may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, ¹⁹ and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.²⁰ Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, ²¹ to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen."

[Charles Miles]

I see your reasoning and scriptural affirmation. I do think (and know) that as christians, we are to do the will of God and it is our responsibility to seek it with all our heart. Once we accept Jesus as Lord and saviour, we are re-born as a new creature that is adopted into the family of God. My question is this...Do we know who we are? Do we act like we know who we are? Let me see if I can illustrate my question a bit better. I was raised on a farm, my father`s farm, and there was a bunch of work that needed doing daily. We had hired hands(not slaves by any stretch of the word) and their father did not own the farm. All of us did the same work, got up and on the job at the same time, were held accountable for the jobs we did, and really, I think I was held more accountable and looked at more closely than any of the hired help. My father was careful not to show me ANY favoratism in job assignments and pobably expected me to do my job better than the others. The difference here was, I was the son of the owner, I knew it, the help knew it, and certainly my father knew it. They all knew that one day I would inherit the whole farm and my job was really to start at the bottom and learn the whole operation from the ground up so as to understand the operations for the day I would be the heir. Is that not a bit like where we as christians are in this kingdom of God? We do the same work as those who may not be heirs and (in my case back then) we not only have to do our work, but be an example to others about how it should be done. Back in those farm days, I didn`t get as much pay as the hired help, but it didn`t matter to me because I knew who I was(a son of the owner), and what was in my future(to inherit the whole thing). Well to be honest, it did matter somewhat because I thought I WAS a slave at times due to the pay, but dad would often remind me who I was and what he expected of me. You see, I was not a slave at all, not even hired help.......I was a child of the owner and on many occasions I needed to be reminded of that fact.

[Travis Richey]

Charles,

I appreciate your wonderful reply and the personal example. I've been dwelling on this for a few days, and as happens when we are seeking, I have found this same discussion taking place among others. So, I think it very important that we do come to realize Who and What God is, and as you say, we also need to discover who and what we are as well. Both are very important because God desires a relationship with us, and we should desire the same with Him, and in any relationship, it is imperative that both know the other to the best of their ability...it leads to a deeper and more honest relationship if we do.

Having said that, I have been struck with all the different pictures we are given of God and of Jesus, and of ourselves. God and Jesus are both described as shepherds, and us the sheep. Jesus is the water, the bread, the gate, the way, the truth and the life. Jesus and God are LORD and Master, we are servants and slaves. We are both described as friend of the other. Jesus is the vine, God the vine-dresser, and us the branch. God is our Father, Jesus our Brother, and we are children of God.

So why are we given so many pictures of God and of ourselves, and of this relationship? Is one more correct than the other? Can we embrace just one or two and toss the others aside? I believe that we require them all. As you said earlier, our language and our mental capacities cannot describe nor fully understand God, and I am coming to believe we don't fully know ourselves. That is why we are given so much information in so many different ways. God is all these things, and more. We are all these things we see ourselves described as also. Our relationship with God and our needs of Him and His of us changes as we mature, as circumstances and events around us change and unfold. There are times we are a sheep in need of a Shepherd, and there are times we are a child in need of a Loving Father, and there are times we are called to slavery for our Master, and times come when our task is to bear the fruit of the Vine.

Just as Scripture tells us that God's Word is alive and active, we have to remember that He also is Alive and Active and working in us to accomplish His purposes, that we will act according to His plans for us.

I must cut this short, but hope to return to it later on.

In Christ,
Travis

[Lori Smith]

Candice,

There are so many wonderful responses to your question; however, I wanted to add an Old Testament perspective, for it reveals how God was always more interested in a relationship than obedience (Not that obedience wasn’t required!). Indeed, God’s chief complaint has been that hearts are far from Him. King David is a good example. He stole a man’s wife and then murdered her husband. Still God called him a man after His own heart. Why? He was a man after God’s own heart because David loved God. God can thus sanctify a heart that is His (It is God working in us-that’s how it works).

The book of Hosea provides, I think, the strongest case for this. Indeed, Abraham Joshua Heschel (a Jewish scholar) writes (see Hosea 6:6 for reference), “Hosea’s central complaint against the people is that they do not know God. He employs the verb to know with striking frequency, and coins the expression daath elohim, usually rendered knowledge of God. The verb yada does not always mean simply to know, to be acquainted with. In most Semitic languages it signifies sexual union as well as mental and spiritual activity. In Hebrew yada means more than the possession of abstract concepts. Knowledge compasses inner appropriation, feeling, a reception into the soul.”[1]

What this reveals is how passionate God is about us. This passion is reflected in God’s willingness to sacrifice Jesus upon the cross. Thus, replacing love for God with obedience is simply repeating what God complained about in the Old Testament and what Jesus complained about in the New Testament. Certainly God requires obedience, but He is motivated by love. Thus, He requires our love; in turn, He gives us new hearts that are able to obey. This is God working through us. Indeed it is God who works in us and through us to enable us to live holy lives.

Consider again, God speaking to Israel through Hosea the Prophet:

I Found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the first fruits on the fig tree in its first season” (Hosea 9:10). God is telling Israel that He pictures them as mouth watering fruit in the midst of a desert. He sees you and I the same way. However, Israel went after other gods, and this pierced God’s heart and made Him jealous. Indeed, God states, “But they went to Baal Peor and separated themselves to that shame; they became an abomination like the thing they loved” (9: 10). God was intensely angry for His love for them was great. However, even in His sorrow, God vowed to one day write His law upon their hearts that they might KNOW Him (see Jeremiah 31:31-34). God has fulfilled that promise with the New Covenant which makes men new creations. Then we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and we have the status of being seated in heaven (See Ephesians 1:13-2:10). The apostle Paul also adds what his prayer is for all of the saints: That we “may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height—to KNOW the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God” (Ephesians 3:18-19). Jesus said the same thing in John 17:3, “and this is eternal life that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
What you can take away from all of this is the knowledge of God’s intense love for you. That is what motivates Him. Therefore if you are willing to give Him your heart, and if you are willing to yield yourself to the intensity of His love, He will sanctify you throughout your lifetime. Indeed, He loves you so much that He sent Jesus to die for every one of your sins. Thus when you receive Jesus, you are forgiven and joined to God forever. This PLEASES God. Just let Him love you and God will be most happy with you!!!

That means that legalists misunderstand the gospel; indeed, they(like your zealous missionary) are not preaching the Good News at all. Instead they insult Jesus by substituting their own righteousness for the finished work of Christ. They make themselves good and ignore God’s goodness. Thus they steal God’s glory. But God is glorified when we showcase His kindness!! He is good, and you can rest in that.

Blessings!
Lori



1. Abraham Joshua Heschel, The Prophets (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 2009), 57.