24 replies to this topic

[Candice]

I wonder, after hearing a very "On-fire for Christ" missionary from India speak at our church a week ago....
He presented many facets of evidence of true salvation - bearing good fruit, if you will:
1) what our LORD has done for us; what a price He paid;
2) Jesus talked about the "bad news of hell" more than the Good News;
3) do we lay our lives down for Him? Are we really slaves to the LORD?
4) Christ is Savior, but is He LORD? If He's not your LORD, he's not your savior and you're not born-again.
5) Obedience v. relationship - does the Bible really say anything, really, about a relationship with Christ over obedience?
6) Are you sharing the Gospel regularly with everybody? They're going to hell and their blood will be on your hands.

No fruit or bad fruit=not saved. Don't believe what people confess with their mouths. They should be practicing what they preach.

I'm asking these questions because, after hearing this sermon, I became convicted...am I really saved? If I look at this, I may not be saved.
Reference: Chapter 52 of Isaiah

[Charles Miles]

I read what you said and my sould crys....again. We are continually trying to make the gospel much more complex than it is. !. Repent. 2. "Believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is Lord, and confess it with your mouth". Satan is a very sharp individual and is able to confuse with complicated ideas about just who we are and what God has done for us. Anytime someone starts to present a laundry list of things we must do to prove we are children of the living God, I am utterly astounded. I`m sure the missionary you heard was attempting to show what fruit would look like when it is produced, but we do not live under the law and do not have the same burden the Jews had/have with the law. These fruits will come with renewing of the mind and day by day realization of what God has already done for us. If we believed that all these things must be manifest before we are saved, and then continue to be manifest day after day after day to insure our salvation....we have fallen back into the legalistic entrapment of the law.
Candice, I don`t know you but I do read what you write on this board. Let me ask you this...Do you have a personal relationship with the Father? Do you believe that Christ died for your sins and on the third day rose? Do you believe that He is sitting at the right hand of the Father as our intercessor? If the answer is yes, and you have confessed and repented of your sin....YES, you are saved!!! All the rest that the missionary spoke of will come and we all work on those things every day. Some days we get them right and some days we don`t...but you are saved and a child of the living God.
Paul said..."I come to preach Christ and Him crucified". To be "on fire for Christ" is a good thing and we should all work at getting closer to that, but to sow confusion and doubt among the bretheren is NOT what we are here to do. Candice, you don`t have to show any man anything to prove you are saved, only you and the Father know. I assume you do have a relationship with Him, so go to Him and discuss this with Him. A good read before the discussion would be Romans 8.
God bless you Candice...and I think, make that I know, He already has.

[Charles Miles]

Sorry about the typos.. I read what you wrote and my soul cries...again.

[Travis Richey]

Candice,

Read what Charles has said, and then reread it, and reread it yet again. Do it every day if you have to. But more importantly than that, go to the Word and follow what the Lord tells you...not what some well meaning person is telling you, even if they might be a missionary to somewhere. Legalism is legalism is legalism, and it only varies in degrees of how severed/strict it is. As Charles points out, if you see a check-list to follow, that is a very clear warning flag to be on the lookout for legalism...for rule-following...for Law. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law, which He has done. He came to be our righteousness because we have none of our own. Yes, we are called to bear fruit, and yes, we are called to be a slave to God and have Him be Lord of our life....BUT, it is God that works in us to will and to act according to His good purpose...and God acts by His power, in His time and not according to our check-list. God works "in us", we don't work in God...we surrender ourself to Him, allowing Him to crucify our sinful, selfish nature on the Cross of Christ. Without the Power of God by His Holy Spirit in us, we can do nothing...with Him in us and by His power, we can do all things.

In Christ,
Travis

[elizabethcog]

My heart cries too, thank you Charlie and Travis as you have both aided me in so many ways......Candice it really is as simple as Jesus says it is that is why we know our being saved is of and from Him NOT ANYTHING we can do or have done or will do on our own,man and religious people while with good intentions perhaps have added and ruled up the gospel so much that we must speak truth so others will hear God calling them.If i may take the liberty of kinda comparing .....A chef is in a kitchen he is creating something only he knows what it is and at times others think it looks like a sloppy mess but he knows just what he is doing what to use and add,in what order when to freeze,thaw heat,boiletc.....just how it is all going to come together and a masterpiece will be the result.We must let God be God and trust him and step out in faith even if we dont have all the answers,we should be sorry for our sins and beg for forgiveness and turn away from our harmful choices,read the Bible see for yourself what God has to say to you hon,He loves you,He is calling you,seek him.Don't let anyone no matter how well intended they seem to tell you different.Jesus Saves,in Christ,Elizabeth

[Julie Daube]

Excellent response, Charles! Amen! And Travis, I totally agree that a checklist to follow is a huge red flag that smacks of legalism. The Bible clearly teaches that we are not saved by anything we do but are saved by what Christ did for us on the cross. Period.

Candice, Elizabeth is right - it is really as simple as Jesus says. If you are struggling with the feeling that you have to somehow measure up to God's standard, you will never stop feeling that way because we simply cannot meet God's standard. That's why Jesus met it for us. Obedience and producing fruit for the Kingdom are good things, but they will flow out of our relationship with Jesus and are a result of our salvation, not a requirement of it.

Much of this is discussed in depth in an excellent article by Gary Wilkerson (son the late David Wilkerson) entitled "Jesus: Greater than the Works of the Law." I encourage you to read it and am sure you will be blessed by it:

http://www.worldchal...orks-of-the-law

[Candice]

Julie,
I cannot believe what you attached as a link...a lady at church brought this (in printed form)...the exact same thing from Gary Wilkerson to me on Sunday since she knew my response to the missionary's sermon and thought it would be good to read. It is the EXACT same thing! Is that God's WORD??? I had read this from Gary and believe it, but then again, I read what the LORD himself says about fruit and the branches that are bad being tossed into the fire. UGH. I believe I am just plain depressed. Need prayers.

Travis, Miles and Elizabeth: thank you for your words; I will read them daily several times as Travis suggests. This is important and I can't go on anymore in "the Chrisian life" apparently uncertain of my eternal life.

[Julie Daube]

Wow, Candice, that is amazing! I think that is the Holy Spirit's confirmation of what God is trying to tell you.

I think if we look carefully at the passage about the fruit and the branches, we see that producing fruit is a consequence of abiding and remaining in Jesus, not a requirement for salvation. Note that verses five and six of that chapter state, "If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are ... thrown into the fire and burned." What I believe this passage says is that if we belong to Jesus (i.,e., if we are saved), we will naturally produce fruit; on the other hand, if we do not remain in Jesus/are not saved, we will not be able to produce any fruit ("apart from me you can nothing"). If we are not disciples of Jesus, then of course we will produce no fruit because He is not living within us to empower us to produce fruit. The fruit is an outgrowth of being saved, not a requirement to be saved. Understanding the passage this way is consistent with everything else the Bible says about salvation; that we are saved not by works but through faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross. It really is that simple.

I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you absolute assurance that you have eternal life through your faith in Jesus. See 1 John 5:13: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Note that it says nothing about works or any requirement to produce fruit in otder to have eternal life.

Grace and peace to you!

[Charles Miles]

Candice, I see that you live in Wyoming, such a beautiful state with sky that goes on forever. Tonight, if you have time, go outside and lie down on your back in an area where you can see the heavens with all the stars that go on for distances so great we cannot comprehend. Just look and admire God`s work and His creation that is so magnificent that the human mind is staggered. How beautiful are the heavens. That sight gives me pause to reflect upon a verse..."who is man that you are mindful of him?" As I read Genesis, I am amazed that all that is said about the creation of all those stars is..."and He made the stars also". Kinda an afterthought just for man`s enjoyment. God, in all His creating, made us(man) as His companion and He LOVES US!!! Can you believe that a God who fashioned a star 150 billion light years away knows your name....Candice? He wants you to love Him and wants you to choose to live with Him forever. He will not make this a difficult thing for you to do. The simple faith of a little child will do all that is necessary for you to have eternal life, and God gave to each of us a measure of faith. I define faith as ...expecting the supernatural to have an effect in my life.
You have been given some good advice from Elizabeth, Travis, and Julie, but I urge you to read John, Romans 8, and Hebrews 10. They are correct with their advice, but you need to know it for yourself and know where to find what you need when you need it. I make no judgements about any person, but I am convinced that confusion such as you have run into does not come from God. We know who the fathet of confusion is and what he does. The Holy Spirit is our teacher, comforter, and councilor......He does not foster confusion. Know who you are...a child of the living God, a member of His family, an heir to the salvation and riches offered by Jesus. May Abba Father give you a clear mind and Holy Spirit comfort you as you sort this out.

Charlie

[CnJ4Jesus]

Candice,

Do not let anyone put you under a yoke of bondage. You are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. You don't have to earn it or prove it. This life is not about what we do for Him. It's not about us at all. It's about what He did for us.

Eph 2:4-9 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Heb 4:9-10 "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, (10) for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."

I have struggled with some of the same issues you have - and some of the same issues that missionary is struggling with (yes, he is struggling with a misunderstanding of grace). Guilt and fear are not proper motivators for obedience to God. They may modify our behavior, but for selfish reasons. Here are a couple of posts that I wrote to put into words the freedom I have found as I have rediscovered God's Amazing Grace.

http://impactedbygra...ood-to-be-true/

http://impactedbygra...grab-the-glory/

http://impactedbygra...d-consequences/

http://impactedbygra...ace-under-fire/

I pray that these meditations and sermons will allow you to see the beauty of what God has done for you, and allow you to rest and enjoy it.

Grace and Peace,
Charlie Marquez
Pastor, http://www.refugelongbeach.com/

[Candice]

http://ccsheridan.or...c=1348015029553

This is the link to the website that contains the sermon "CB's Challenge" 9/9/12. It is not my expectation that anyone is obligated in anyway to listen. However, my husband, who is very gracious and merciful (gifts I'm sure) thinks I was not hearing the message as he heard it and didn't think it was "works" oriented.
If anyone does want to listen and discern for me, feel free to let me know if I am completely off. I heard enough in the first 20 minutes to get the tone, albeit subtle in my mind (and heart - mostly), but maybe I'm overly sensitive or God is convicting me of something or I'm in complete error and he's said nothing of the kind. I listened intentionally again as I didn't want to build a case against this man in my heart, as I hurt deeply that I'm so deficient. I need to know if I misunderstood or misheard what he said. For sure, he is sold out. I guess my life just isn't spent in terrorist territory

Bearing fruit: to me this the fruit of the Spirit...love, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control??? Or is fruit works for Him? Or both?

Thank you all for your generous responses and encouragement. I appreciate your time which is precious to us.

[Candice]

PS Charlie: I know what you mean about the Wyoming sky...we have a very clear and awesome view of all the stars that we can no way count and sometimes lay on the trampoline at night to view them all. God is awesome beyond belief. Also, have watched some great videos online (youtube) with unbelievable "celestial bodies" for a lack of a better word:



Thank you.

[Candice]

Louis Giglio on Youtube has great presentations on creation and astronomy - just unbelievable!!

[Candice]

"We must also be careful to preach that our best most pious good works are imperfect and corrupted by pride and mixed motives, but they are acceptable to a Holy perfect God not for righteousness, but from the righteousness that has been freely given to us in Christ. Good works offered as payment to ward off punishment or to purchase blessings, are worthless. They have no value in the kingdom. But when they are offered as an act of worship – they become valuable, like wildflowers picked on the side of the road for the one we love. They have no value in themselves, but it is the motive of the heart that makes them valuable. If that good news doesn’t motivate worshipful obedience, then the hearer doesn’t understand what they have in Christ or they have yet to taste His glorious grace and are still lost in sin. Free, glorious, and amazing grace motivates Christian hearts to live for the pleasure and the glory of the One “who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, …(and) graciously give(s) us all things” (Rom 8:32)."

I believe this is BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN. This is from Pastor Charlie Marquez

[ADVRider]

Candice,

It sounds like you felt more guilty than convicted. I cannot add much more to what has been said, but not every Christian has a good understanding of grace. I know I certainly did not up until a few years ago and grasping the dimensions of the love of God is ongoing. But perfect love casts out all fear. Without this perspective, it's way too easy to beat yourself up along the way. The apostle Paul says to stop that. Read the book of Galatians a couple of times. When you begin to get a small grasp of grace, the various legalisms start to appear for what they are. But it is a process, because the legalism is in all of our hearts through Adam. So while it can come across as quite spiritual, legalism is destructive of true faith and the gospel. That is what Paul said in Galatians basically. He was only zealous for one thing; the purity of the gospel because of all people, he well knew the difference.

I have a friend who is currently serving as a missionary and as of late, it seems out of some new sense of zeal he has delved deeper into the pool of legalism. It's sad to see because Jesus paid the price so that we may be free and respond in love. I always wonder what kind of "fruit" those who are legalistic are going to produce in their "disciples." I can tell you, it won't be true freedom. Think about how that one message made you feel; probably how bad you are doing and how terrible of a witness you have been, or something like that. That is not the Lord. And remember who it is who wants you to feel bound, unworthy and condemned.

[Sarah Baker]

Candice,

I also struggle with this at times. I know what's in my heart, the secret things that others may not see, and I know that it doesn't always align with a Christ-like character. It's so easy to fall into legalism to try and make myself be better, and then doubt my salvation when I don't feel good enough. One thing that's helped me when these doubts come is to remember some advice that my mother has given me at many times throughout my life: Feelings are not always based on facts. Feelings can be deceptive. Don't hasten to base what you believe to be true on how you feel at the moment - base what you believe on facts.

So what are the facts? How do I know if I'm saved? Romans 10: 9-11 says, "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, 'Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.'"

Have I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord? Yes, I have. Do I believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead? Absolutely. Then, according to Scripture, I am justified and have been saved. I may not always feel saved, especially when I fall into the habits of my old nature, but the fact is that I am. Then I can trust God to continue to grow his fruit in my life and continue to refine me.

Blessings, sister!

[Charles Miles]

Candice, I read all the posts written in this thread and I am so encouraged, joyful, and amazed at the wonderful family of God who will spend time to encourage and support. Jesus himself had words for anyone who would cause one of these little ones to stumble. And by "little ones" I am referring to many, many of us who are earnestly seeking the kingdom of God. The words used for the very pillars of the Jewish system He called vipers and serpents(not my words, but the words of our Lord). Why would He do this? He chastised them for making the way of eternal life to be confusing and difficult so the people had no understanding of the truth, the way, and the life. He then said..."I am the truth, the Way, and the Life". I JUDGE no one, but I do rebuke the spirit of confusion and the placement of a "stumbling block" in the way of seekers of the Truth. I won`t bother you any more with all this that has been brought home to me in the past year or so, but I leave you with this thought that all of us know but sometimes forget..."For God so loved the world(Candice) He gave His only begotten Son so that any who believe in Him will have everlasting life". No laundry list, no works, no things left to be done. All God has EVER asked us to do is believe what He says. "seek ye the kingdom of God and all these(other things) will be added to you".
May God bless you and send His spirit to comfort you,

Charlie

[Candice]

Thank you ALL for your encouragement. Each and every word and bit of counsel is taken to the LORD and I've begun reading all Scriptures that you all have recommended. Thankfully, the LORD supplies a remnant in the churches and our lives in general, although not in the same church or even the same state for that matter, when we're in the "midst" of struggles, doubts and battles with the enemy of God. I see glimpses of hope and can clearly see that the only Hope is Christ.
Thank you all for your counsel, words, Scripture and being disciples of His on this forum!
Love, Candice

[Travis Richey]

Candice,

I began listening to this sermon and got about halfway through it when I had to reboot my computer, and now I can't find a way to jump forward without having to listen to the first half again. So, my comments here are based solely on the first 40 minutes or so of the sermon. Based on what I heard, I will have to agree with your husband. I don't hear a "salvation by works" message. I do hear a message of absolute surrender to Jesus as both Savior and Lord (Master), and of our now being slaves to God instead of slaves to sin, and I find these as scriptural truths...though difficult for us as western Christians to understand and come to terms with. As he begins to include the words of James concerning faith and works, I do hear the difficulty we all have in discussing works prompted by faith without heading down a path to legalism. I know that for me, I tend to bristle very quickly at anything that even hints of legalism, because I have been there and have gotten caught in that snare of self-righteous, holier than thou, works as a means to self-gratification instead of glorifying God type of church. And because of that, I did find myself having to listen very carefully to some of his comments, as they could sound legalistic, especially were they taken out of the context of the rest of what he is saying. But almost all of us fall into that as we write and speak and discuss the Word...human language fails us in so many ways, and in attempting to describe something, we use language that could lead us onto straying paths. That is where prayer is required in study, and in reading and hearing...we require the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth...which is the exact purpose that Jesus states in John as he promises to send the Spirit to us.

I did find encouragement from this speaker as he discusses surrender, and the Lordship of Christ...these are important subjects that need to be spoken often in our churches. We have been purchased, and our buyer should get what He paid for...which is all of us. We don't just give Jesus our Sundays and then maybe our Wednesday evening...no, we give Him everything, 24 hours a day, every day. And we give Him all of ourselves...not holding anything back. We can't just give Him our sin and our fear...and then keep our doubts to ourselves. We can't just turn over to Him our musical abilities and teaching skills, and then keep our construction talents for our own personal gain. God gets it all, because He paid for it all with His own Son. That's a difficult concept for us, but as I come to terms with it, and God makes that truth more truthful to me, then I begin to realize the full impact of it...and that is what I hear in this sermon...becoming totally devoted to God, absolutely and completely surrendered to Him, to the point that all that we think, do or say is His Will. Then, and only then, are we totally free from the world and from sin. And then, and only then, do our "works" not become work, but they become like everything else we do...simply the Will of God for our life. For it is God who works in us, in order that we will and act according to His Good Purpose.

I struggle with this daily, and God is working on me to understand it and grasp it for myself. I'm reading, and rereading and studying a little book called Absolute Surrender, by Andrew Murray. In it, he reminds us that nothing we do is by our own power or will. As we begin this journey to surrender, to Christian maturity or completeness, to sanctification...our first prayer should be, "Lord, I am willing that you will make me willing." Our faith comes from God, our ability to understand His Word comes from Him, and as Jesus tells us in John 15, apart from Him we can do NOTHING.

John 15 is where I'll wrap this up. We are given this beautiful word picture of being a Christian. We are the branch, and we can only live as we draw nourishment from the vine. Jesus is the vine. We are grafted into this Vine, into Christ, at the moment of salvation...not because we have produced the right fruit to be in the Vine...for it is impossible for a branch apart from the Vine to produce anything resembling fruit...but we are grafted in because of God's Grace, and His Love for us. Then, as we begin to receive Christ in us, we draw from Him the nourishment we require, then God can prune us, and cut away the old sinful growth, and then and only then can the fruit of the Vine be produced in us. The branch cannot cause itself to bear fruit, nor can it choose which fruit it wants to bear, or decide when to bear fruit...all of that is determined by the Vine and the Vine Dresser, and everything required to bear that fruit comes to us through the Vine. If I'm a branch attached to the Vine, and I'm not totally surrendered to the Vine, then I'll not agree with or accept everything the Vine is sending into me, nor will I like what the Vine Dresser is doing to me to produce fruit in me. But when I finally come to accept the full and complete work of both the Father and the Son in my life, and surrender myself to being the branch attached to the Vine, then God and Christ can produce fruit on this branch...as undeserving as I am of being here.

Galatians 5 describes for us, first our natural sinful self, and then shows us the fruits that can be produced in us by the Holy Spirit. Notice that these fruits by themselves are not "works" as such, they are character traits. However, those character traits of love, kindness, patience, self-control...they are not static. If this is our character...becomes our character...then we will "do things" that are the result of those characteristics. In other words, the fruit of the Spirit is not to become a missionary to India, or a preacher in Idaho, or a teacher in Texas, or a whatever you might be. But the fruits produced in us can and might lead us into those places and callings. It is not our job to produce the fruit, but to bear the fruit being produced in us, for the purpose which it is produced, and by the power of the One Who produces it in us.

I pray that we will all become the branches of the Vine that God wants us all to be.

In Christ,
Travis

[Candice]

Travis,
I listened to this again. My husband has a problem with it, but was trying to avoid conflict. We both re-listened. I think if you go to the audio again, put your pointer at the bottom of the audio screen and forward on the bar to 1:10:00 and then on or so, you'll start hearing him more clearly. Why do my husband and I hear condemnation to everyone he's talking to? My husband thinks he's offensive. I am trying to get over it all and the "it's a law" stuff is too much for me. I think I'm not mature enough to handle this.

Candice