8 replies to this topic

[elizabethcog]

It has really been on my heart for some time now if I am where God would have me to be,I have been inHis word and prayer and sought help from others that I know love Jesus too. I'll back up a bit....my life has been a very broken(admittedly self chosen at times) road but God never stopped calling my name and He opened my heart and ears that I might hear in the spring of 2010. My husband and I joyfully were baptised together right away and became members at a church where God's word was and is spoken,and these people LOVE Jesus and know God's word,they have i think much more knowledge of the head than I do. I have some short term memory problems but I read my Bible every morning and pray throughout the day and always seek God's will for my life along with my loving husband of course. God has protected me and spoke to me and even I believe gave me a healing and comforting dream about my mom and i am so in love with Jesus for what He did and does for me and all who love him and believe.There are some things that I pray for God to help me with so I can stay at the church we are at.......things like closed communion,women not praying aloud in church,the pastor not marrying a man and woman that live together(how are they supposed to do right by God if they are convicted by God of their living in sin and want to marry)??? All are welcome to come they say but if 2 admitted homosexuals come and want to become members they are given a certain amount of time to repent and stop their sin befor being allowed membership????Are we not all guilty of sin?Does God not know those who are his anymore? When did we start protecting God???I know we should want to turn from our sin and beg forgiveness but then are we not told that God's mercy is a gift only he can offer?If I can't give as much money to the church building I am a member of one week because it was put before me and God laid it on my heart to give a chunk of money so this family could buy groceries this week am I out of God's will or maybe it is I am out of man's will.If I am the church do I really want to pass by a hungry hurting lonely soul on my way to a building so I can deposit my check in a plate for someone else to decide what to do with it?????Sometimes I No most of the time I just don't fit in with the organized religious activities today......Prayers appreciated for me and all of us....the church wherever we are...

[Charles Miles]

Elizabeth, My heart goes out to you and the situation in which you find yourself at this time. We, the believers, are the Church and not some organization fashioned by man. Religion is man`s attempt to reach God, and it has never worked. Man has a history of taking worship and inserting legalistic rules and barriers that hinder the very worship they are attempting to carry out. Jesus was actually the most non-religious man who ever walked this earth and he opposed much of the organised religion of the time. In our walk we should seek a relationship with the Father, not adhere to a set of man`s ideas of what our relationship should look like to other men. Through a prophet, God once said that the sacrifices of misdirected men were a stench to His nostrils and He wanted no more of it. He wanted them to obey what He said. Later that was condensed into.."Love one another even as I have loved you". Staggering statement...we are to love one another the way Christ loved us? He was a conformist, but only a conformist to the will of the Father, not of men. Building funds are nice, activity centers are good, but giving to the widows, orphans, and the needy should be first on our list if we are about advancing the Kingdom. You are so right to stay in the word and listen for God`s wishes rather than man`s ideas about where your time and money should be offered. I see that you attend a Baptist church. The priesthood of the believer is a cornerstone of their doctrine, so simply explain that the Lord has lead you to do a few things differently with your gifting. Should be no problem with that.
May God bless you and keep you as you continue your journey.

Charlie

[Julie Daube]

Elizabeth, thank you for sharing the struggles that you and your husband are wrestling with about what the Body of Christ ought to be. I am convinced that many churches today put the same heavy burdens on believers that the Pharisees did during Jesus' time. Just a few days ago, I read something that was tremendously liberating to me, and I think it is relevant to some of the issues you raised about mercy, forgiveness, etc. It was written by Gary Wilkerson, son of the late David Wilkerson, and is entitled "Jesus: Greater than the Works of the Law." I would love to see this message read from every pulpit in America:
http://www.worldchal....org/node/19594

[elizabethcog]

I just knew that there would be some help from you all.I have over and over thanked God for you all here that reach out in love to help me and others and share in our earthly journey and struggles.From the bottom of my heart I thank you and praise and glory to Jesus for his love and demonstration of this love we aspire to have for each other, I can never remember everyones names but my prayers always ask for God to look after my tozer and Christ family including the ones i have never had the pleasure of meeting in this body,but I look forward to meeting each one of you my family in Christ in God's time.

[Candice]

I can certainly relate to not fitting into a church body and feel some of the burdens you describe. If you are a relatively new believer, there are many words of wisdom that individuals here can provide you. Addressing each of your detailed challenges is tough. I start with a quote from Aiden Tozer: “What I believe about God is the most important thing about me.”

First, if quoting Scripture here, I advise reading the entire chapter before applying so everything is contextual. When we believe and receive His Holy Spirit, we can move from simple faith to an awesome fear (respect) over time. If we could even for a split second understand the holiness of God, we would shutter. James 2:19 quotes "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." So, even demons believe in God, Jesus, and know His Holy Spirit. They were created beings and know and believe full well in God's awesome power. But, do we. We do learn and know Him more when we trust scripture and His Spirit speaking through Scripture. He is both Savior and LORD. But, we are saved by faith alone.

The idea of official church membership is not biblical. I won't go to a church that enforces it strictly. I've know "Christians" who are members, but live like the devil and go to their membershipped church twice a year at the usual Christmas Eve and Easter sightings! Pray that the LORD will guide you on that. It isn't right or wrong, just an extra-biblical concept.

The "church activities/religious activities" can be difficult to relate to and I can relate. The thing is: we must be in fellowship and not forsake it. Also, we must avoid and deal with "OFFENSE". So, guard your heart and mind. "The Bait of Satan" by John Bevere is a good Word on offense in the church and dealing with our hearts so we are not lead astray or snared by Satan. He wants nothing more than for you to become offended and leave. Maybe, that will be the best option ultimately. But, I recommend not leaving during an offense. I have had two situations where I left a church offended (three years ago) and have not fully recovered from bitterness. Bitterness is a poisonous root that is difficult (in the flesh) to get rid of.

Then, with respect to the couple living together. Pastors want to make sure they protect their flocks, but can get heavy handed in their human nature/flesh when it comes to this. Some people have the gift of mercy, some don't. Understanding the scripture on this (but not this scripture alone) may help. Ask the Pastor to support his decision with scripture. Don't get him on the defense, but ask if you really want to know or look up scripture on this. Soimetimes we might believe that the couple should be able to live apart without sexual relations to be sure they do not marry for the wrong reasons and end up divorcing later. Although, if they really want to marry and are not being "guilted" then there are pastors who will marry them. Again, pray for God's Holy Spirit to keep you from offense whenever this topic comes up.

With respect to the admittedly gay couple wanting to become members of the church. You'd need to share more. Again, read the entire chapter (at least) containing this verse (and many others): 1 Cor. 6:9-11. This addresses homosexuality (in that context) and then those who have repented (once were). Again, what we believe about God defines the Christian. Many sins that we all struggle with take years to recover from. However, homosexuality (just like my "straight" sex outside of marriage prior to becoming a believer) is sin. The Scripture is clear on this. However, there may be tendencies that are not acted on which mean repentence is active. Again, He is both Savior and LORD so obedience becomes a point of following Him and fellowship. He forgives and we obey and He forgives when we screw up. I would, again, speak with the Pastor, who should be able to pray with you, explain by way of scripture, and then you give time to the matter. Again, please don't take up an offense for others....this is a trap.

Every minute of the day, I stand to offend a Holy God who is Perfect. Even His very Name is Holy. So, what we believe about Who He is is everything. But, religious activities, memberships, etc. are all man-made and will exist in most churches to a greater or lesser degree. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing, by the Word of God. So, enjoy His Word which is life to us.

I pray you find peace and comfort in this response.

[Charles Miles]

After reading your post again(for the 3rd or 4th time) and then reading the responses by Julie and Candice, I think you have some good advice on which to meditate. The one other thing that I am led to say is this....The problem with some churches today is that they have lost the knowledge of the overwhelming emensity and understanding of just who God is and what He desires of us. It is my belief that God loves us all and desires His children to reach out to unsaved peoples wherever and whomever they are. He cannot abide sin, but does still love the sinner....as we are supposed to do. As contriversial as this may sound, the Lord is not the friend of sinners, but He does love them and expects us to do so also. We are certainly unable to comprehend the wholeness of God, but we can know more about Him than many of us do at present, and it sounds as though some of the people you discussed might do well to seek the Lord and study a while on His attributes. Possibly the Tozer book on "Knowledge of the Holy" could be suggested. I know the book has done much for me, so I read it again and again over the years. Some of our churches operate on a rigid schedule for service and substitute the order of service for a presence of the Holy Spirit, and that is really, really wrong! I`m convinced that the Holy Spirit could leave some churches and they wouldn`t know it for years, if at all. Really a sad state of affairs.
I pray for an awakening and the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit to present Himself in ALL our churches, not just yours. We all need this despirately if our Church is to operate fully on this earth. Paul said that he spoke the gospel not just in words, but showed it in power. We need the power of the Holy Spirit today..Now!

[Candice]

Charles gives wonderful advice on reading Tozier's books on the attributes of God and His Holy Spirit. Amen to Charles's words on this.

[Travis Richey]

I've always found it interesting that all the Scriptures concerning tithing...giving 10% to the church....are Old Testament Scriptures. Nowhere in the New Testament are we told to give a set amount to the church. We are told to be generous with all we have...not just our money, but our time and talents and blessings. We are shown generosity, and called to generosity, through all the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles. Paul in speaking of the offering he was collecting for the Jerusalem church, asked everyone to give according to their ability to give, and according to how they were led to give. I often hear that offerings are above and beyond our tithe...but I don't find it supported by Scripture. Yes, we need to support our churches, and their ministries...but ultimately, we are called to be generous as we are led by the Holy Spirit to be generous...and if that means paying someone's rent or buying them groceries instead of putting a hundred dollar bill in the collection plate at church, then so be it, we are doing the work of the Lord. One thing I would do, especially in a church that has a focus on money coming in, is to ask the Pastor or a Board Member for a copy of the church's financial statement(s) and look for yourself where and how the monies being taken in are being used/distributed. Many times, that can give you an indication of whether or not you're in the right place, and are how your offerings are used. If that church won't open their books to you...well, that opens up a whole new can of worms. The way people, and churches, handle or mishandle money can be symptomatic of much deeper spiritual problems. Remember, money is not the root of all evil...but the love of money certainly is.

[Lori Smith]

Wow Elizabeth, you are very patient with your pastor. That shows me that you have a beautiful heart. What I would say then about your church is that churches are meant to be gatherings where believers edify one another (see Eph 4:11), and where we are equipped to serve. That means we hope to grow in spiritual maturity that we might become more like Jesus.

Well, then we must ask, how would Jesus act if a sinner approached Him? We see the answer in Luke 7:36-50. Indeed, a very sinful woman approached Jesus and washed His feet with her tears; however, the pharisee who was watching looked down on her. Jesus then used the woman to teach Simon, the Pharisee a lesson. The final verdict was then given by Jesus as He stated: "Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little" (Luke 7:47).

My own feeling then, is that the church you are in has been very helpful to you. Indeed, they have helped you learn God's Word. However, there is obviously a lack of spiritual maturity because there is little love for the lost. Therefore it may be a good place for you now, but if you want to grow, at some point you might want to find believers who are more gracious and aware of God's love for the world.

That's just my humble opinion!
Lori