5 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

One of the dangers of too much dependence on systematic theology is that we try to make the Bible fit into our system. We take a Bible portion and check it against our system. If some things don't quite fit, we try to eliminate the edges that don't, just as the cookie cutter does to the cookie. A system can be helpful as an organized pursuit of Truth but God's Word must never be at the mercy of the system. When the Word cuts right across our system, it is time to re-examine the system. Arminianism and Calvinism have wonderful truths and they have errors. I recall J. Edwin Orr saying, that after many years of studying the Bible, he was convinced that it is a Calvinistic Arminian Book. His point: God's Truth is found in both and exposes any errors in either one. Check everything carefully against the Scriptures. We won't resolve all theological differences this side of Heaven but we can greatly reduce the consequences of man made systems of thought that distort the balanced view of Holy Writ. That is as it should be. God's teachings don't bump into each other, they are complementary to each other. Views that are not validated by careful study of the Bible hinder Spiritual growth and often give excuses to some people to turn away from considering the gospel. "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (I Thessalonians 5:21). Ron Pinkham

[StevePage]

I think you are absolutely correct. Christianity started with Adam and Eve not Luther and Calvin. The development of authentic Christian doctrine happened during the time from the creation to the death of John the Apostle, yet here we are today discussing Arminianism and Calvinism.
I really think those guys are a distraction from something that is far greater and far more relevant. 

We need to remember that the reformers were far removed from the New Testament church and they were trying to make sense of scripture through a lens of a corrupt and godless church (Luther) or a lens that was tainted by that same corrupt church, Augustine, Gnosticism and the Greek philosophers (Calvin). We think in terms of doctrine being either Arminianism or Calvinism and in facts it’s neither.
Almost none of the reformers turned to the Old Testament to interpret the New, or so it seems. Instead it appears they came up with their own ideas based on their own experiences and sources outside of scripture. In fact I wonder if they ever read the Gospels or did they just read Paul?

Try looking at scripture only through the Old Testament lens. By that I mean when you read the NT, think of both faith and faithfulness whenever you read the word faith. (That is how the reader in the first century would have understood that word, since the word for faith in both Greek and Hebrew mean both faith and faithfulness.)
Also, try to read the New Testament as it being a covenant. We are in a covenant with the Lord. We enter the covenant through faith and remain in it through faithfulness. Helping new converts to understand that they are entering into an agreement with the God of the universe is missing from the church. 

Jesus spoke to an audience who knew that when He said, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God", He was actually saying "once you enter this covenant don't look back...."


In college a professor noted that Habakkuk 2:4 "the righteous shall live by his faith” could have possibly been more accurately translated "the righteous shall live by his faithfulness." HMMM. That set my mind reeling, because I immediately thought of the times that verse is used in the New Testament. Think of how Christianity would change if that were taught rather than 
”saved by faith alone.”
It’s a huge challenge to stop looking at scripture through the eyes of the reformers and starting looking at it through the eyes of Abraham or Isaiah, but it is rewarding.

As I was researching this line of thought I ran across a great book to read. It’s a free download and a good read. Saved by Faithfulness, by Rev. Mark Skillin.

God Bless

[Jay Turner]

The thing that we always need to keep in mind when reading scripture is that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Given this, if we want to understand what God has to say to us through the scriptures, we need to let the Holy Spirit be the one to bring us that understanding. God's word is a living word. It has flesh and spirit. If we try to take the flesh without the Spirit, then the words that we read are but dead flesh. On the other hand, the wisdom that the Spirit reveals is applicable to the circumstances and situations that we are facing and the calling that God has placed on us as individuals. When you think about it, God will reveal aspects of Himself to us as individuals as He needs us to understand. Because His calling on my life differs from his calling on your life, our basic understandings of scripture and who He is may differ. We may not understand how our understandings of Him can reconcile with each other, because we cannot see the bigger picture of who He is. The main thing is that we be true to where God is leading us as individuals while trusting that He is working out a much greater plan that may be beyond our field of sight.

[Julie Daube]

Very well stated, Thinker! I am thoroughly enjoying your posts!

[Charles Miles]

I think we are all pretty close together on many, many things that have been discussed in these recent threads. Many of the "reformers" were given truths revealed to them by the Holy Spirit, but none of them had the whole picture on the canvas(the Kingdom of God). These men such as Luther, Calvin, Wesley, and others, were given understanding and insight into a portion and then later another would be given another revelation of God`s majesty. All of the newer revelations presented to them, in my opinion, were revealed by the Holy Spirit just as Christ said He was to do as comforter, teacher, and revealer of the Word. How could anyone read the Old Testiment and not see Christ presented many times an in many different ways. The Bible is a book, the inspired Word of God, and a wonderful story that shows God`s love for His man creation. Both Old and New Testiments tell a wonderful story that explains God`s dealings with man to corect a fatal error of sin, and that sin(treason against God) had to be delt with. The New Testiment is concealed within the Old Testiment and the Old Testiment is revealed i the New Testiment.....there simply are no contradictions when read as a whole. Do we understand all the dealings God had and is having with man? No. No matter how much we study God`s Word, there is still a mystery and I shudder when anyone even suggests that seekers and new Christians must understand all these truths before they can be saved. Who would presume to "set the bar" about how much someone had to understand before they were allowed to know they were "saved"? Certainly anyone living today would not want that job, would they? Certainly not me! I enjoy reading God`s Word daily and always ask the Holy Spirit to sit with me and help my understanding and He has never failed to show me something I had not seen before. BUT, I know that I know that my name is in the Lamb`s Book of Life becuse "the Bible tells me so". It tells me that I am the "very righteousness of God" and being that....I am saved and seated with Christ in glory even as I type this note. Do I love God? Very, very much. How much do I love God? That is irrelivant...the important thing is that God loves ME! He loves me so much that He actually completed a plan by which my sin is gone! Washed away! He actually said that He would remember my sin "no more", and since God is not a lier, I just accept this as true. I am so grateful for this Love of God and all that He has done for me......I try every day to live the way He would have me live. I certainly don`t get it right all the time, but I try every time. God is faithful to forgive me when I fail and I continually ask for this forgiveness and He says He gies it freely. Do I repent? Yes, daily. Do I scew up again, yes....but I keep trying. How do I know all this is true? Because I am a born again child of the living God and I have a relationship with Him that I nuture on a daily basis. There is nothing I can do, no matter how "nice or good" to deserve this kind of love, but I know I have it. I praise God for His mercy and grace and marvel in the fact that God loves me. True peace is found in this love and knowledge of it.
Peace be with all of you and May the Holy Spirit be your constant companion. I will back away from these discussions for a time.

Charlie