11 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

Preaching is an evangelistic opportunity. However, it is much more. Listeners should certainly understand their need of salvation. They should also understand what it means to receive salvation. Salvation is not simply a rescue from Hell! It is a whole new relationship and life. Communicating what that implies should be be one of the priorities of preaching. If our preaching focus is only on helping people escape judgment, that may account for much "easy believism." Go through the "formula" and "presto," you are guaranteed Heaven. In fact, the more expository preaching there is that covers the many facets of becoming a genuine Christian, the easier it is for the personal worker to explain to a potential convert what it means for them to come to Jesus. God, in His great mercy, seems to have worked around the too limited input of things like "The A. B. C's. of Salvation" or "The Romans Road." I suggest that that doesn't excuse our lack of "fleshing out," in our preaching and teaching, what those kinds of outlines lack. The early converts, especially Jewish ones, knew the likely cost of coming to Him. Family relationships lost, financial loss, rejection persecution, danger and death were apt to be the cost of receiving Him. It is comparatively easy for many (particularly in the Western world) today to walk an aisle or make a decision. Hence, there is a greater need to have salvation adequately explained in our day. Could it be that a lack of Spirituality in many churches today can be traced to an emotional only conversion and not to a Spiritual one? Selah! What if we taught someone that they can have assurance of their salvation, when they just agreed with some facts but didn't truly experience a Spiritual conversion? Ron Pinkham

[StevePage]

Good post. These are issues I've been struggling with for a couple of years now.

Something seems to be missing from the normal revival type evangelism I've seen. At the end of the emotional serman the preacher says something like; "bow your head, repaet this prayer, boom you're saved." Well as I read what Jesus said about enduring to the end and walking the narrow road I see that salvation does not come in a moment (except in some rare occasions on a death bed or something) it comes through a life of faithfulness. I think a better picture is Abraham who left his family and home to follow God. He stumbled, he erred and he sinned, but in the end he kept his face toward God, he grew stronger in his commitment, he was shown grace when he needed grace and over time he became faithful to his agreement with God.

[Charles Miles]

I see where you gentlemen are going with this "teaching and fleshing out" of the theological concepts of salvation and understanding of the Christian faith walk, but maybe there is some confusion in what is being said or maybe the confusion lies in my meager understanding of intricate theology. Yes, one should study, pray, seek God`s will, tithe, etc, etc, etc. BUT I humbly submit that salvation does not come through a life of service, faithfulness, Old Testiment study, or anything we do. Christ died once for ALL and this is all that is needed for my salvation should I choose to accept the death of God`s Lamb as a substitutionary sacrifice for my sin. "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son". You see God loved me when I was very unlovely, He knew my name from before time began, the God of the Universe cares about and loves me!! Not for what I study, not because of what I do, not because I tithe, not because I am always faithful to my commitment, not because I understand how serious the early church was about converts, or anything I could ever do for Him. Once one realizes that Christ was sacrificed fo my sin, I thank Him for it, I know that I know that it was the real deal, then my salvation is a done deal at that instant. A greatful heart at that point desires to know more about God and His Kingdom, Christ and His earthly walk, as well as the Holy Spirit and how He is with us every instant of every day. There is nothing I can say, do, give, read, work on, or anything that merits what has been done for me. I try to live as my King would have me live, but I often fail at that. Renewal of the mind and thought life is not instantaneous like salvation and this is the part that takes study, understanding, and spiritual growth with leadership from the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a GIFT from God the Father to His children and there is nothing we do to merit such Grace and Mercy. Salvation is a gift to ALL....they just have to accept that the sacrifice was done for them. Come on now guys, don`t try to make new Christians understand all the theology to show they are saved.....that can come later. Just let them know that God loved them so much that He came to earth and was sacrificed for their sin. The plan of salvation is so simple, so complete, so beautiful, and so perfect........please, let`s not muddy the water here to the point people think it is too complicated to even understand. "Unless you be like one of these children, you cannot inherit the Kingdom of God". Please, please let`s keep it simple, so simple a child can "openmindedly" understand.

[StevePage]

"Christ died once for ALL and this is all that is needed for my salvation should I choose to accept the death of God`s Lamb as a substitutionary sacrifice for my sin" I understand this is what many churches teach and that it's sound Reformation theology, but it is not the reality of what I can see in scripture. Of course I might wrong.

We must believe the right things and we must do the right things. I may choose to believe the right things but choose to not do the right things. Can I be saved if I live a life of disobedience or if I refuse to repent of a sin? I don't believe scripture says so.

We cannot earn our salvation, but neither can we just believe and be saved. We must both trust Jesus and be faithful to His commands. Obedience, faithfulness and correct belief are all equal parts of the gospel and the message is incomplete without any one of them. Even a child understands they must obey their father and mother, and even a child knows if they have been cheated or if daddy is being unfaithful to mommy. So faithfulness and obedience are concepts any person can grasp.

Look at it this way, we cannot be forgiven unless we forgive no matter what we believe. God will not love us unless we obey His Son, no matter what we believe. Without holiness we will not see God, no matter what we believe. The verses that say these things must be in our theology just as the verses that say "believe" must be.

Jesus said that only those who endure to the end will be saved (Paul did too) which makes it clear we are not saved in an instant. Jesus' comparing the Christian walk to a narrow road also makes it clear that entering the Kingdom is a lifetime walk of faithfulness. As I have come to understand it we may enter into the new covenant in an instant through faith, but only those who keep faith and remain faithful are promised anything.

Now I understand you can throw out a lot of quotes and verses, but what I'm suggesting is that we view scripture as a whole and see the principles that are established from Genesis to Revelation. Forget what the reformers and all those who follow them teach for a moment. Just think of the covenants He made with Israel and the promises that God to Israel if they were faithful to Him and the covenant. The writers of the New Testament drew all their examples and lessons from those covenants and promises.

From the first Adam to the second God based His relationships with man on covenants. All those covenants had many things in common. Do this and I will keep this promise is a common thing. God said to Abraham if you do this I promise land, a child etc.. The same with Noah, build the ark you will be saved. The New Covenant is no different. If we look at the New Testament (Covenant) as a whole we see Jesus promises salvation IF we believe, repent, get baptized, love others and God, etc. Salvation is not without conditions.

“Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him” (Jn. 14:21)

It is my humble opinion that the reason the church is faltering and setting such a poor example is that we try to hard to make to easy to be a Christian. Nothing in the Bible ver says the walk with Christ will be easy. We are promised persecution and we are promised that we'll be divided from friends and family if we follow Jesus. We are told to put our hand to the plow and not to look back.

From what I see in scripture there will be grace and the Holy Spirit to help us as we walk the narrow road. However, we must walk the road, return to it if we stray and remain on it till the end.

Two last words, "Pilgrim's Progress."

[Charles Miles]

Yes, there are many, many scriptures that can be called to mind that will speak to both the pro and con of this discussion, but I will agree that they should be taken as a whole. I think we get too enraptured with works in many churches and forget the important spiritual truths. But If I "Confess wih my mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead, I will be saved", "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"? Yes, once we are in God`s Family, we should not look back, we should bear fruit, we should live as close to the way Jesus lived as possible....but as I read and study the book of James, I am eminded that all these works are products of a changed life, and in no way do any of the works produce salvation. They just show evidence of a relationship with the Father. Salvation is NOT earned, not worked for, not given for anything we can do for the Father. Salvation is a GIFT, pure and simple...I`m not saying that once saved, one`s life shouldn`t show changes, but these changes are BECAUSE we believe and already have the salvation. I am the very righteousness of God through fath in Christ and what he did for me and I can walk boldly into the Throneroom of God, no because I somehow "earned" the right to do so, but because I accepted the fact that Christ died for me and His blood is my way in. Nothing I do in the way of works will hav any effect on my legal right to be there, I will still be a sinner, I will not be perfect, but the Father will see me as He would see Jesus because of the blood shed for me. BTW, it was shed for you too. Already done, finished, nothing more can be done to improve the situation of salvation....if anything could, it would lessen the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Yes, God made a covenant with Israel through Abraham and God swore the covanent by Himself while the man was asleep. It remains in force today, thank God. If you have any idea that Israel kept her part of the covenant and was thus justified to God because of it, I may suggest reading some of the prophets..starting with Moses, Jeremiah,Lamintations, Ezekiel, and others..but then come back to Hosea, Joel, and Amos. Israel was a stffnecked, arogant, idol worshiping, rebellious people who brought down the wrath of God on themselves, but they are still the "chosen" people and God calls them "His people".

[Charles Miles]

One more slight thing here. The New covenant is NOT the new Testiment. The New Covenant is FOUND in the New Testiment in several places. I like the New Covenant as stated in Heb. 8:10-12. It is repeated in Heb 10:12-18. The new covenant is even found in the Old Testiment, and though I haven`t looked at it there in a while, you may find it in Ezekiel 37:26-28. The New Covenant is very specific and easy to understand. If one ascribes the whole New Testiment as the New Covenant, it all become too general and cumbersome.

[Travis Richey]

Charles,

I've been reading this thread, and others, and have hesitated to weigh in with my own thoughts. Now I know why I hesitated...so that you could write down my own thoughts so much better than I could have done. So, I shall add my Amen to all that you have said on this subject.

I was raised going to church, a Nazarene church which is Arminian and Holiness in theology. I then ventured far and deep into the world, and away from the church. God's Grace and His Holy Spirit drew me back. I turned my back yet again to His Grace, but instead of leaving church again...I embraced a very strong form of legalistic thought, action and judgementalism. I turned into an even uglier person than I had been when I was so far away from God....for I was going against Him while professing Him. Talk about grieving the Holy Spirit.

But thanks be to God, and He is long-suffering with us, and that I can never be seperated from His Love, His Grace, or His Mercy. God is so very patient with us all. I don't understand election, or predestination, or how works works or doesn't work...but I do know that my Redeemer lives, and that because He lives, I also live. God will indeed finish the work He has begun, because He has promised that He will. It is God Who works in me to will and to act according to His good purpose, and Paul stated so well this idea that all the "works" that he accomplished were not of his own effort, but were the Power of God working in him, and they all took place after that little encounter he had on the Damascus road.

May we all celebrate in the Lord, and Praise Him for His Grace and Mercy.

In Christ,
Travis

[StevePage]

One more slight thing here. The New covenant is NOT the new Testiment. The New Covenant is FOUND in the New Testiment in several places. I like the New Covenant as stated in Heb. 8:10-12. It is repeated in Heb 10:12-18. The new covenant is even found in the Old Testiment, and though I haven`t looked at it there in a while, you may find it in Ezekiel 37:26-28. The New Covenant is very specific and easy to understand. If one ascribes the whole New Testiment as the New Covenant, it all become too general and cumbersome.

Good thoughts. I would only say one other thing, New Testament and New Covenant are the same. They have the same meaning and the two terms are interchangable. I understand what you are saying though (it all become too general and cumbersome) and I think we just need to understand the covenant is easy. We enter into it by faith we stay in it by faithfulness. All the words the apostles wrote just fill in the blanks for those that need them filled in.

[Charles Miles]

Sorry Steve, but I can`t agree with you here. The Old Testiment was written ABOUT the Old Covenant just as the New Testiment was written ABOUT the New Covenant. How could anyone explain their christian belief to a seeker or new convert if we had to quote the whole New Testiment to them? I had to learn this one day when asked to tell someone what I thought God had promised me....and all of a sudden, the whole new testiment seemed like a vast ocean of God`s work in the earth. All of it is true, but way too much for my mind to sort out in one answer to a question that astounded me and sent me seeking this "new contract" God has made with me. The old testiment shows us the problem and the path God was taking to resolve it. The new testiment shows us how the problem of sin was solved. I needed to find where God actually said....."Here is a covenant that I will make with my people(me). I will write on their(my) heart....." I will be Charlie`s God and Charlie will be my child, and I will remember his sin no more! So specific, so clear, so simple, and so magnificent as to clear all the fog from the mind. When you read or quote Heb 8:10-12 and Heb 10: 12-18 to someone seeking the righteouness of God, the next statement usually that you will hear is..."God promised He would do THAT?" Any serious seeker will want to know more and usually by that time Holy Spirit is right in the middle of the conversation.

[StevePage]

I actually agreed with you Charles I only made the point that that the words testament and covenant mean the same thing. I enjoy your posts and your enthusiasim for God.

[Charles Miles]

Thanks Steve, I enjoy our discussions here. They tend to clarify our reasons that we have a relationship with the Father. It does seem to always help our faith when we speak about what we believe and are able to explain our faith. Most all(if not all) of here believe about the same, so our discussions simply add to our knowledge base. I hope others see our discussions as two believers simply identifying what we believe and how we try to walk it out in this life.
May God bless you and yours,

Charlie