9 replies to this topic

[Thinker]

If we are talking with someone that indicates an interest in receiving Jesus, as his or her Savior, we must not settle for a simple formula that fails to acquaint the seeker with what it means to come to Christ. For example: it is commonly told an enquirer that one has to admit that he or she has sinned and is a sinner. That's true, as far as it goes. We must go further and find out if they realize the seriousness of their sin(s). Are they willing to turn from their sin? Do they truly want to be holy? The next thing seekers are asked is if they realize that Jesus died for them to provide salvation. Do they have any understanding of what our sin(s) cost Him? Is salvation explained? Have we explained how one man could atone for the entire sin debt of the whole world for all of time? The seeker is then asked this: is he or she willing to trust Him for salvation? Trust Him for salvation (deliverance) from what? Hell? Sin? Both? Some just want to escape Hell. While we may not be able to cover all the bases in what may be a brief encounter, we can at least make sure that these basics are understood. We have offended a Holy God. We receive Him as our Savior and Lord. We are yielding our lives to Him to direct. Sin is really bad. He died to save us from (not in) our sins. Prayer, the study of the Word, sharing our faith and involvement in a local Bible believing church must become part of our daily lives. Yes, God does give us time to grow but from the time we're saved, these things are now a part of our new direction. Ron Pinkham

[Travis Richey]

Ron,
If I may, I'd like to ask this question: Was all of this fully explained to you before you accepted Christ as your Savior? The reason I ask this is because it has been my experience, and the experience of many that I have talked with, that a full explanation of all you mention is not necessary to come to salvation. It is the power of the Word as it comes to life in the hands of the new believer that fills them with the knowledge of all God is, and all that He can and will do in our lives. It is my personal belief that not a single one of us can lead anyone to Jesus, nor can we put forth enough words of explanation in our own power for that to happen. It requires first, the drawing of God in that persons life, and then it requires the power of the Holy Spirit who can take that sinners prayer of repentance and carry it to the Throne of Grace. Jesus did not put forth a full explanation of all that you mention to the thief on the cross beside Him, but He did take that thief's short prayer of repentance, and accepted it, and promised him an eternity in His Presence. It is God who works in us to will and to act according to His purpose....before, during, and after we come to know Him.
In Christ,
Travis

[elizabethcog]

I am saved by God's mercy i know,officially I guess that would be March 2010,but it was God's Holy Spirit in me already that caused me to "announce "with my mouth that I believed.See i tried many times in my life to go to church I wanted to be called out and saved but I never really felt that even though my mouth said it.......Then God called me out and I felt Him in me before I said it.It makes no sense but it is the truth and I am forever His cause of Him not me=)

[Charles Miles]

I certainly am in no position to understand God's complete plan and the new covenant given to us by Christ by His sacrificial death, burial, and resurection. He did tell the deciples that the wine in the cup represented the New Covenant and they were to drink ALL of it. At the time of my salvation experience, I did not know what ALL meant......and I'm pretty sure that I still don't know what ALL of it is yet. I know I am saved, I am a child of the living God, and His Holy spirit works in me daily to help me learn what the ALL really is. To attempt to explain to a seeker what all is to be written on his/her heart when our own heart writing is not yet finished seems to indicate that we already know all the answers about God's plan for our own lives. God's ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts, but we can and should attempt to learn more about His plan for us daily, through prayer and study of the word. I attempt to grow every day and become more Christlike, but as I work at it I find I have a long way to go. The way of salvation is simple, please let's not make it more complicated for those seeking the Holy.

[elizabethcog]

For me I just heard His calling and HAD to respond,I never paused to consideranything except God compelled me to turn around and acknowledge Him.It seems like I was watching myself in some way,I was so moved literally and heartily.It was His doing not mine and now I am drawing close to him through His word and prayers and waiting and other believers in church and life.Praise God man He is soo Good and Merciful.

[David Carter]

Maybe it isn't either/or, but both/and. I agree that we need to be clear that those who enter into salvation through Jesus Christ are surrendering their lives to Him as their Lord. We want to avoid fostering easy believism and a mere formulaic view of salvation (i.e. I said the prayer, got the T-shirt, good to go). We want them to know that they are making a commitment follow Jesus with all their heart. But few, if any, will understand all that surrendering to Christ as Lord will affect right up front, even if they are watching persecuted Christians around them. Few if any of us understand at the outset just how messed up we are by and with sin. A total theological understanding of the transaction is not necessary to salvation, because salvation is by grace through faith, but a heart broken under the conviction of the Spirit and contrite in repentance from sin is necessary in the one who turns in faith to the Savior. And don't forget, it is really the Holy Spirit that does the explaining in this process. We share the Word, He gives the understanding. And in His light, even the blind see.

[Living water]

I would agree with the thought that full disclosure is our responsibility. We should be making disciples and if part of that is a "disclosure" agreement then so be it. Our current context of disciple-making is different than the first century, however. I would like to introduce another concept here...

Jesus did not put forth a full explanation of all that you mention to the thief on the cross beside Him, but He did take that thief's short prayer of repentance, and accepted it, and promised him an eternity in His Presence.
Travis

Maybe it isn't either/or, but both/and. I agree that we need to be clear that those who enter into salvation through Jesus Christ are surrendering their lives to Him as their Lord. We want to avoid fostering easy believism and a mere formulaic view of salvation (i.e. I said the prayer, got the T-shirt, good to go).

I agree with all three of these posts. I believe I am just like the thief on the cross, who knew that Jesus was his last and only chance. The only difference is that I haven't been executed yet. In the meantime, I need discipleship and support, I have to learn to stand on the word. In the beginning of Jesus' ministry he told his followers they were blessed in persecution and to turn the other cheek. By the upper room he went as far as sharing the fact that they would be killed for the faith. Notice how he built them up through His minstry this is what we should do. Some preachers go out to set records on how many people 'they can save'. Jesus put His trust in a few loyal followers and took time to concrete their conviction. Peter was not a stone when he met Jesus but he became one, through many tests and trials. Let us be like Jesus and not concentrate on numbers, but instead concentrate building solid faithful followers. Consider this, with the Holy Spirit, 13 Apostles spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. More saved than burgers served at mcds!

[StevePage]

I would agree with the thought that full disclosure is our responsibility. We should be making disciples and if part of that is a "disclosure" agreement then so be it. Our current context of disciple-making is different than the first century, however. I would like to introduce another concept here...

I can't help but think that the early followers of Jesus were forced to think deeply before they followed this new faith. The culture dictated that to follow Him meant identification with Him. A baptism into Him was a very different thing at that time. When someone came to faith during the time of the early church, it was more than conversion (a few words spoken in front of a gathering)...it was identifying yourself completely with a strange "sect" bringing with that identification an immediate persecution.

People that were drawn by the Holy Spirit saw with their own eyes the cost demanded in the lives of those first disciples. They would need to seriously consider that cost. It's not like someone would need to explain the ramifications of following Jesus...they were front row spectators to it!

In many cases this scenario is mirrored for modern-day believers in countries where the predominant religion is not Christian. To identify with Jesus means immediate persecution...and yet there are still those that do it. It seems they are drawn by the Holy Spirit to sacrifice all because there is a clarity given by the sheer Love of God himself to their souls.

All that said, I guess the answer in my opinion is geographical in many ways...if you see the cost being paid by a believer then the actual discussion/disclosure of discipleship is moot.

In Him and for Him

That's good stuff Mr. Marvin.

We often overlook the culture that Jesus taught in and the Apostle taught in. We also overlook that we are reading a "reader's digest" version of the events. Those Jews that they were teaching already had the background lessons about commitment and faithfulness to a covenant with God.

They learned frome birth about those things. Modern teachers teach on New Testament concepts, but they often teach wrongly because they overlook the Old Testsment foundation.

Jesus did not put forth a full explanation of all that you mention to the thief on the cross beside Him, but He did take that thief's short prayer of repentance, and accepted it, and promised him an eternity in His Presence.

I often wonder if to much emphasis is placed on this event when we form our beliefs and doctrines.

I think it's a wonderful picture of God's grace and we are able to teach and learn many great things about grace, trust and forgivness from it. But, we must also teach that this occured under very specific circumstances that most people will never encounter. Most people will not encounter Jesus as they are dying, most people are saved and then must live lives with trust in God and faithfully to God. For most the walk with Jesus is a path that takes years, not hours, to complete. The thief on the cross had to keep the faith for hours, others must keep it for years.

So if we use the story of the thief on the cross we must fully disclose all the details.

[StevePage]

from the Tozer devotional.

Costly Discipleship


In our eagerness to make converts I am afraid we have lately been guilty of using the technique of modern salesmanship, which is of course to present only the desirable qualities in a product and ignore the rest. We go to men and offer them a cozy home on the sunny side of the brae. If they will but accept Christ He will give them peace of mind, solve their problems, prosper their business, protect their families and keep them happy all day long. They believe us and come, and the first cold wind sends them shivering to some counselor to find out what has gone wrong; and that is the last we hear of many of them. The teachings of Christ reveal Him to be a realist in the finest meaning of that word. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find anything visionary or overoptimistic. He told His hearers the whole truth and let them make up their minds. He might grieve over the retreating form of an inquirer who could not face up to the truth, but He never ran after him to try to win him with rosy promises. He would have men follow Him, knowing the cost, or He would let them go their ways. All this is but to say that Christ is honest. We can trust Him. He knows that He will never be popular among the sons of Adam and He knows that His followers need not expect to be. The wind that blows in His face will be felt by all who travel with Him, and we are not intellectually honest when we try to hide that fact from them.