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#1 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 12:16 PM

How does your interpretation of Matthew 6:5-6 guide your reactions to the external expectations that you should pray out loud in front of others?

#2 JimmyS

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 01:09 PM

How does your interpretation of Matthew 6:5-6 guide your reactions to the external expectations that you should pray out loud in front of others?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think that the expectation is all too often that we should pray out loud all the time with each other and try to say as many things as we can, while in this passage, Jesus talks about not babbling like the pagans who think they will be heard because of their many words. So I think it is possible to pray with each other corporately, but it takes great submission and humility towards each other. Otherwise I have seen people try to impress people with their prayers, or teach someone, or even teach the Lord.LOL!

#3 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:51 AM

Yeah, I know what you mean. I think that the expectation is all too often that we should pray out loud all the time with each other and try to say as many things as we can, while in this passage, Jesus talks about not babbling like the pagans who think they will be heard because of their many words. So I think it is possible to pray with each other corporately, but it takes great submission and humility towards each other. Otherwise I have seen people try to impress people with their prayers, or teach someone, or even teach the Lord.LOL!


This is a topic that I've never heard anyone dare to bring up before, not even in (bible) college where such things would have been explored. Had I dared, I would have faced the disapproval of most professors, staff, and even students who already had a vested interest in continuing this tradition. Indeed, every gathering involved public prayer. It always seemed to me that the prayers were directed at the group, and that God was a 'bystander' who would merely 'overhear' these prayers. Thanks for responding as you did; I'm not alone after all! B)

#4 Joel Stoddert

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:17 PM

This is a topic that I've never heard anyone dare to bring up before, not even in (bible) college where such things would have been explored. Had I dared, I would have faced the disapproval of most professors, staff, and even students who already had a vested interest in continuing this tradition. Indeed, every gathering involved public prayer. It always seemed to me that the prayers were directed at the group, and that God was a 'bystander' who would merely 'overhear' these prayers. Thanks for responding as you did; I'm not alone after all! B)


You're definitely not alone, Richard! I too have wrestled with this issue. I see praying together publicly as scriptural, but Jesus tells us not to pray "like the pagans", who don't understand what true prayer is, or to pray like the Pharisees who opposed Him, who were just showing off how pious they were. Both types of "prayer" are alive and well today. But praying together in a way that brings glory to Christ & is truly a time of speaking to the Lord and listening, is a different story.

#5 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 12:50 PM

Praying out loud in the presence of others creates a real conundrum, because those around you are going to notice whether you are (1) saying things appropriate to the occasion, (2) taking too much time (or too little), (3) pausing long enough to collect your thoughts (thereby making them momentarily uncomfortable), ... ad infinitum. In prayer meetings where there are few enough people that everyone can take a turn, they will notice (1) who fails to take his/her turn, (2) who is repeating what others have already mentioned, (3) whose prayers sound the 'best' and whose don't, ... etc.

Furthermore, if you desire to confess your sins to God (as if He didn't already know), how will those around you handle this otherwise private information? Ideally, of course, 'true' Christians will be understanding and humble, remembering they have their own sins to confess. But this is the real world. Just sayin'.

#6 JimmyS

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:16 PM

Praying out loud in the presence of others creates a real conundrum, because those around you are going to notice whether you are (1) saying things appropriate to the occasion, (2) taking too much time (or too little), (3) pausing long enough to collect your thoughts (thereby making them momentarily uncomfortable), ... ad infinitum. In prayer meetings where there are few enough people that everyone can take a turn, they will notice (1) who fails to take his/her turn, (2) who is repeating what others have already mentioned, (3) whose prayers sound the 'best' and whose don't, ... etc.

Furthermore, if you desire to confess your sins to God (as if He didn't already know), how will those around you handle this otherwise private information? Ideally, of course, 'true' Christians will be understanding and humble, remembering they have their own sins to confess. But this is the real world. Just sayin'.

Yeah I know what you mean. The bible says in James "Confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed," but again this would take a deep humility to recognize our own sin, and not just look at the other guy like "Wow he's bad." WE have this sense about ourselves too often that we have attained more than the other guy spiritually. There is a "humility that comes from wisdom." This is not to say that we don't share how someone might overcome what we have overcome, or learned about prayer. It does mean that we recognize the work of God in the hearts of others, and not just our own spin on every subject.

The reason I think that people would have looked down on you if you brought these topics up in Bible college is that there is this sense of a "don't rock the boat mentality." I am ashamed to say it, but this loyalty to a system of doing things is taking precedence over loyalty to Jesus Christ. WE feel safe in our own little worlds. It might sound harsh, but we have built a system of Christianity (bible colleges, seminary etc) that has taken the focus off our Lord and placed it on knowledge about HIM. We know it all, but still feel empty why? This system has become much like the religious system of the pharisees. We have a bunch of Dos and Don't s and training for everything. DO we forget the first disciples were fishermen and tax collectors. These fishermen also add Paul in there who gave up pharisee-ism were accused of turning the world upside down. We need real prayer, the love of God,obedience, and humility. Anyway this is a great topic thanks for sharing. We may have a revival right here on this forum.

#7 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:33 PM

Yeah I know what you mean. The bible says in James "Confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed," but again this would take a deep humility to recognize our own sin, and not just look at the other guy like "Wow he's bad." WE have this sense about ourselves too often that we have attained more than the other guy spiritually. There is a "humility that comes from wisdom." This is not to say that we don't share how someone might overcome what we have overcome, or learned about prayer. It does mean that we recognize the work of God in the hearts of others, and not just our own spin on every subject.

The reason I think that people would have looked down on you if you brought these topics up in Bible college is that there is this sense of a "don't rock the boat mentality." I am ashamed to say it, but this loyalty to a system of doing things is taking precedence over loyalty to Jesus Christ. WE feel safe in our own little worlds. It might sound harsh, but we have built a system of Christianity (bible colleges, seminary etc) that has taken the focus off our Lord and placed it on knowledge about HIM. We know it all, but still feel empty why? This system has become much like the religious system of the pharisees. We have a bunch of Dos and Don't s and training for everything. DO we forget the first disciples were fishermen and tax collectors. These fishermen also add Paul in there who gave up pharisee-ism were accused of turning the world upside down. We need real prayer, the love of God,obedience, and humility. Anyway this is a great topic thanks for sharing. We may have a revival right here on this forum.



#8 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:08 PM

Sorry for the delay in responding, JimmyS. I'm glad you like this topic. I'm still pondering the best response to "We may have a revival right here on this forum." For starters, I'd have to say, "Define revival." Usually, a revival conjures up images of an evangelistic tent meeting with scores of people "coming forward"--a measure of success, if I recall correctly. Of course, such a meeting will have involved much public (out-loud) praying. All this is possibly not what you meant. I must admit, though, that a wildfire-like spreading of adherence to Matthew 6:5-6 would be a HUGE change...a newsworthy one at that. Just imagine what a church service would be like!

In a similar vein, what would a service be like if people only sang hymns and other Christian songs when they (somehow) collectively felt inspired to do so because it was appropriate in a given context, rather than obediently standing up/sitting down and turning to the page instructed by the pastor or music minister because that was already printed in the program? And what if no preference were given to the person or persons who had the most talented voices, so nobody would be showing off? Wouldn't that turn a church service upside down!
__

I've been anticipating one possible reaction that readers of this post might have about my comments on public prayer; namely, that the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray, and he gave them "The Lord's Prayer." Nowhere does it mention, however, that this prayer should be spoken out loud and/or collectively. That practice, I'm fairly certain, developed much later. Just sayin', folks.

#9 Mark Wood

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:29 PM

Do you guys see this verse as going against public spoken prayer? I'm a bit confused in what I am reading here.

#10 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

I thought this passage is rather straightforward. What's your take on it?

#11 Mark Wood

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 07:23 PM

Simply to contrast the praying of the hypocrites- that we are not to pray in that way, drawing attention to ourselves in prayer. The indication is not to prohibit public prayer. There is nothing that would go against the public recitation of the Lord's prayer, in fact if it was not publicly recited it probably would not have been written here. Jesus recites the Lord's prayer, out loud, to his disciples.
It is difficult to judge the heart in prayer, we can only see our own. While I have seen the abuses you speak of I have also seen the commitment of men to engage in public pastoral prayer on behalf of their congregation. Charles Spurgeon was one of these. No matter who spoke that Sunday it was Spurgeon who prayed out loud interceding on behalf of his congregation as he did in private as well. There is something to be said to articulating the needs of the corporate group before the holy living God.
I would disagree with your last comment that there is nothing that it should be spoken out loud or collectively. Jesus is speaking against the intent and heart of the hypocrite, not the practice of public prayer.

#12 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 12:39 AM

Simply to contrast the praying of the hypocrites- that we are not to pray in that way, drawing attention to ourselves in prayer. The indication is not to prohibit public prayer. There is nothing that would go against the public recitation of the Lord's prayer, in fact if it was not publicly recited it probably would not have been written here. Jesus recites the Lord's prayer, out loud, to his disciples.
It is difficult to judge the heart in prayer, we can only see our own. While I have seen the abuses you speak of I have also seen the commitment of men to engage in public pastoral prayer on behalf of their congregation. Charles Spurgeon was one of these. No matter who spoke that Sunday it was Spurgeon who prayed out loud interceding on behalf of his congregation as he did in private as well. There is something to be said to articulating the needs of the corporate group before the holy living God.
I would disagree with your last comment that there is nothing that it should be spoken out loud or collectively. Jesus is speaking against the intent and heart of the hypocrite, not the practice of public prayer.



#13 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 01:35 AM

I feel the the need to reply to your response by inserting my comments [in brackets] within your paragraphs to be most effective:

"Simply [Not simply, as there are already other points made in previous posts.] to contrast the praying of the hypocrites- that we are not to pray in that way, drawing attention to ourselves in prayer. The indication is not to prohibit public prayer. [Then what is the meaning of verse 6, if not to offer the alternative to public prayer?... 'But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.'] There is nothing that would go against the public recitation of the Lord's prayer, [...other than verse 6, cited above. Beyond that, proving a negative is usually worth ignoring. Sorry.] in fact if it was not publicly recited it probably would not have been written here. [Are you just speculating, or are you inferring that God did not guide the hands of the Bible's authors, just in case they forgot something?] Jesus recites the Lord's prayer, out loud, to his disciples. [That's simply because they asked him to teach them to pray; there would have been no mind-meld here.]
It is difficult to judge the heart in [public?] prayer, we can only see our own. While I have seen the abuses you speak of I have also seen the commitment of men to engage in public pastoral prayer on behalf of their congregation. [This proves that...what, the children of God need important religious figures to intercede on their behalf? I'm fairly certain the C&MA's theology does not resemble the Roman Catholic church's on that matter.] Charles Spurgeon was one of these. No matter who spoke that Sunday it was Spurgeon who prayed out loud interceding on behalf of his congregation as he did in private as well. There is something to be said to articulating the needs of the corporate group before the holy living God. [There might be, but I haven't read it yet, here.]
I would disagree with your last comment that there is nothing that it should be spoken out loud or collectively. Jesus is speaking against the intent and heart of the hypocrite, not the practice of public prayer. [Why have you persisted in ignoring verse 6?]

#14 Joel Stoddert

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:10 PM

I feel the the need to reply to your response by inserting my comments [in brackets] within your paragraphs to be most effective:

"Simply [Not simply, as there are already other points made in previous posts.] to contrast the praying of the hypocrites- that we are not to pray in that way, drawing attention to ourselves in prayer. The indication is not to prohibit public prayer. [Then what is the meaning of verse 6, if not to offer the alternative to public prayer?... 'But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.'] There is nothing that would go against the public recitation of the Lord's prayer, [...other than verse 6, cited above. Beyond that, proving a negative is usually worth ignoring. Sorry.] in fact if it was not publicly recited it probably would not have been written here. [Are you just speculating, or are you inferring that God did not guide the hands of the Bible's authors, just in case they forgot something?] Jesus recites the Lord's prayer, out loud, to his disciples. [That's simply because they asked him to teach them to pray; there would have been no mind-meld here.]
It is difficult to judge the heart in [public?] prayer, we can only see our own. While I have seen the abuses you speak of I have also seen the commitment of men to engage in public pastoral prayer on behalf of their congregation. [This proves that...what, the children of God need important religious figures to intercede on their behalf? I'm fairly certain the C&MA's theology does not resemble the Roman Catholic church's on that matter.] Charles Spurgeon was one of these. No matter who spoke that Sunday it was Spurgeon who prayed out loud interceding on behalf of his congregation as he did in private as well. There is something to be said to articulating the needs of the corporate group before the holy living God. [There might be, but I haven't read it yet, here.]
I would disagree with your last comment that there is nothing that it should be spoken out loud or collectively. Jesus is speaking against the intent and heart of the hypocrite, not the practice of public prayer. [Why have you persisted in ignoring verse 6?]


Richard, this has been an interesting discussion, but humility is called for here. Yes, we're dealing with God's Word, which says what it says and means what it means--but although the Bible is infallible, we're far from it. You have been fixating on verse 6, & seem to be taking references to other parts of the passage/other passages of Scripture, as "ignoring verse 6". Context is important, even for "obvious" verses. A much-used example of what I mean is the fact that the Bible says, "Judas went out and hanged himself." It also says "Go and do likewise." The Bible does indeed say these things, & both verses mean what they say--but the Bible isn't commanding us to commit suicide! They're taken from different passages with different contexts, so have nothing to do with each other. The same is sometimes done to single passages, such as the one being discussed. Since other passages speak of believers engaging in spoken prayer together, that's your context for verse 6. If v. 6 meant we can't ever pray out loud in a public setting, it would contradict other passages of Scripture(such as the entire Book of Psalms--sung prayers used in Temple worship for centuries, and in the worship of the church), and the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

#15 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:24 PM

Richard, this has been an interesting discussion, but humility is called for here. Yes, we're dealing with God's Word, which says what it says and means what it means--but although the Bible is infallible, we're far from it. You have been fixating on verse 6, & seem to be taking references to other parts of the passage/other passages of Scripture, as "ignoring verse 6". Context is important, even for "obvious" verses. A much-used example of what I mean is the fact that the Bible says, "Judas went out and hanged himself." It also says "Go and do likewise." The Bible does indeed say these things, & both verses mean what they say--but the Bible isn't commanding us to commit suicide! They're taken from different passages with different contexts, so have nothing to do with each other. The same is sometimes done to single passages, such as the one being discussed. Since other passages speak of believers engaging in spoken prayer together, that's your context for verse 6. If v. 6 meant we can't ever pray out loud in a public setting, it would contradict other passages of Scripture(such as the entire Book of Psalms--sung prayers used in Temple worship for centuries, and in the worship of the church), and the Bible doesn't contradict itself.



#16 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:50 PM

Joel, my previous response (to Mark Wood) really was centered around Matthew 6: 5-6, and Mark made no reference to 'other passages of Scripture' so as to be "ignoring verse 6." I chose this pair of verses because they are quotes of Jesus himself, and not of others. I could also have noted then--as I will here--that his words were also exemplified by his actions; i.e., in the way that he 'set himself apart,' 'went away,' or 'went up a mountain' to pray. Even Peter went onto his rooftop to pray. So it seems that prayer was meant to be a private communication between the individual and God. (What the Israelites' custom was in the Old Testament is, I believe, superseded by the words of Jesus. Additionally, it's a mystery to me why even members of very early Christian churches engaged in public prayer, since that is not what Jesus' words and example seem to be prescribing.)

#17 Mark Wood

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:20 PM

I like short posts, but as Mark Twain once said I don’t have time to write you a short letter so I wrote you a long one. I would like to ask some questions about the text and then answer them. There are other issues to address such as pastoral theology and the formation of the New Testament and oral tradition but unfortunately my time does not permit further discussion.
-What is the context of the passage
-What is the meaning of Matthew 6:5, does it or does it not prohibit public prayer for a follower of Jesus Christ
-How does the rest of Scripture inform us of what this passage is saying
First it is important for us to establish the context. What is going on in and around the verses of Matthew 6. Verse one introduces the main idea of what is to follow in verses 1-18. "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 6:1 ESV)” This verse sets the context for the rest of the passage. Jesus then explores three examples regarding this verse, the giving of alms, prayer (our focus), and fasting.
It is important to note that in each of these examples Jesus does not abolish the institution but instead addresses the heart issue- to practice the discipline in such a way that it is for the Father in Heaven, not to impress others around you.
So what is the meaning of Matthew 6:5? Does it forbid public prayer? Jesus is specifically targeting prayer that, again as verse 1 says, “practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them.” What exactly is Jesus contrasting? In Luke 18:9-14 Jesus shares the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee. The two are being contrasted in their attitude of prayer. However Jesus in this passage does not forbid public prayer but instead says, “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luk 18:14 ESV)” This fits very well with the context and example of Matthew 6.
Jesus is not forbidding public prayer but his addressing the motive, attitude and expectation with which people pray to practice their righteousness before others. Jesus is cutting out the cancer that has grown in the muscle of prayer, he is cutting out this bad part, not public prayer in its entirety.
So what does 6:5 mean? Do not pray in such a way to draw attention to your righteousness but to practice prayer in humility in private, specifically in contrast to the Pharisees. Does this mean that followers of Jesus should not pray publicly? No- why not? First verse one is about addressing the attitude, the heart. Let me give two examples and then let us look at how the rest of scripture informs us of this passage.
Imagine a student at a local community college or high school wants to let everyone know what a solid Christian he is. So every morning he plops the BOB (Big ol’ Bible) down in the cafeteria so everyone can see him. What is the motive? To share Christ or perhaps to let other’s know what kind of Christian he is? It is better done in private. Another example is “Tebowism.” I’ve only caught portions of it but I wonder- what are we to make of the displays of Piety in connection with scoring six points? Does it glorify God or does draw attention to something else? When will John 3:16 realize that his lights are on in the parking lot and as soon as he turns them off they guy will take down the sign behind home base?
How does the rest of scripture help inform us about this passage? If Jesus is directing His followers to not pray in public we will certainly see this pattern through out the rest of scripture.
The Old Testament gives many examples. In fact it could be argued that the majority of prayer in scripture is often corporate, public prayer. North American Christianity has put a serious individualistic flair on most aspects of following Christ. II Chronicles 6:12-42, Solomon’s dedication of the temple; Nehemiah 9:1-38. Is Jesus declaring that these prayers were not the model to follow?
The Lord’s prayer of of Matthew 6: 9-15. Jesus uses corporate language in orally communicating a public spoken prayer, why? So that this is just an example of private prayer? No so it may also be an example a model of public or private prayer that focuses on exalting the righteousness of Christ and His Glory, not our own. Why does Jesus say “Our” and not “My?”
Other New Testament examples abound. Here are some instances
All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers (Act 1:14 ESV)
And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, (Act 4:24 ESV)
And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Act 7:59 ESV)- Was Stephen wrong to have called out in public?
So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church. (Act 12:5 ESV)
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:8-10 ESV) Note the corporate must public prayer.

I believe that Jesus according the the context, both of the passage and the Bible as a whole is not decrying public prayer in Matthew 6:5 but is denouncing prayer in public which draws attention to the person’s personal righteousness and away from the Righteousness of Christ. It is not different from establishing a golden calf that draws worship away from the Holy Sovereign God. The gospel tells us that each of us in our own way is guilty of it. I know that I have prayed in such a way to draw attention to my own righteousness and not the one who has redeemed me and in who I am accepted.
I am grateful for the opportunities we have to sharpen one another.

#18 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:33 PM

Mark, I really appreciate your thoughtful response, and I think you have made several valid points. If I were in charge of a discussion group at a church, I would be grateful to have you as a participant. (I guess this forum is as close as I'll get to that scenario. :) ) I think "Tebowism" is as succinct a term as any for describing the problem I've tried to address through this forum. As a son of missionary parents, my daily life was permeated with public prayers--especially at the Alliance school in Quito, Ecuador. All the adults were gifted with the ability to express themselves in ways that left nothing unsaid. As a child, I marveled at their eloquence, and felt inadequate to the task of praying out loud during the 7 p.m. devotion period. To make matters worse, there was an unspoken pressure for every child to take his or her turn. Clearly, for us kids this was largely about how we would sound in front of everyone else in the group. "Train up a child...."

The question I posed at the start of this online discussion was intended to shine a light on an apparent 'disconnect' between this rather straight-forward passage (which is repeated in the other Gospels) and not only other passages in the Bible but especially common practice in our churches. Was Jesus--through both these words and his own practice--trying to bring about a replacement to the long-held custom of public prayer? If not, what does this passage tell us about the degree of difficulty there is in engaging in public prayer without falling into the trap of forming our words for the benefit of those around us instead of truly addressing God alone?

#19 Mark Wood

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:37 PM

Richard, I thank you for your candor. Some of the sweetest prayers I have heard have been those who have recently come to Christ and take prayer as simply talking to God.

I think Jesus was trying to redeem a practice that had forgotten what it was truly about- communing and communicating with God. His purpose in cleansing the temple was to restore the court of the Gentiles to a place of prayer for all nations instead of a place to be seen and change money. Every person who stand before others has a temptation to make it about themselves instead of others. I think Phil. 2:1-11 is on of the most important passages in framing what we do- taking on the attitude of Christ, humility. As I remind myself of the Gospel I stand before others not as higher then them in any way- it seems like my sins are amplified in those settings, but simply as one who is dependent upon God's grace. How can I draw more attention to me than the one who has redeemed me; however the temptation is always there.

#20 Richard Lofsted

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 11:00 AM

Richard, I thank you for your candor. Some of the sweetest prayers I have heard have been those who have recently come to Christ and take prayer as simply talking to God.

I think Jesus was trying to redeem a practice that had forgotten what it was truly about- communing and communicating with God. His purpose in cleansing the temple was to restore the court of the Gentiles to a place of prayer for all nations instead of a place to be seen and change money. Every person who stand before others has a temptation to make it about themselves instead of others. I think Phil. 2:1-11 is on of the most important passages in framing what we do- taking on the attitude of Christ, humility. As I remind myself of the Gospel I stand before others not as higher then them in any way- it seems like my sins are amplified in those settings, but simply as one who is dependent upon God's grace. How can I draw more attention to me than the one who has redeemed me; however the temptation is always there.


Mark, I think we are closing in on the nut of this issue. When praying privately, we are not tempted to form our words in a way that impresses others and inflates our spiritual status. Period. If praying before others, that temptation increases (perhaps unconsciously) with the amount of experience we have with such exposure. (Maybe public prayer should be used rarely, or should always include confessing our sins before others. :unsure:) If I'm right, the question becomes, Is it possible to counter the well-established (Pharisaic) custom across our churches? Is it desirable?