Doctrinal Belief
#1
Posted 08 September 2010 - 07:32 PM
Or, do you believe in free will when it comes to salvation?
~ Pastor Tex
#2
Posted 09 September 2010 - 07:02 AM
- StevePage likes this
#3
Posted 10 September 2010 - 10:13 AM
Do you believe in election? Also known as predestination?
Or, do you believe in free will when it comes to salvation?
~ Pastor Tex
This is a difficult question.
Paul talks about the elect. There is much in the scriptures that seems to say the elect are predestined to salvation.
On the other hand Jesus tells us to believe, to abide, that our faith should be big!
From reading the Bible through about 3 times, I get the sense that we have decisions in our spiritual destiny. But the verses that argue this idea are there too.
This would be an interesting discussion for me.
I want to live my life so that every morning
when I wake up Satan says, "Oh, no! She's awake!
#4
Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:35 AM
#5
Posted 15 September 2010 - 09:02 AM
In Christ,
Dave
#6
Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:01 PM
We see the river of time from the perspective of a leaf caught in the current. God sees the river of time as if viewing it from Space. What we see as past, present and future (where we have been, where we are, and where we are going), God sees as all at once. Gods present tense includes the past, present and future simultaneously. Simply put, God is not bound in time as we are. He was quite serious when he described himself as the "I AM" (present tense).
My take is that if we look at the predestination issue from GODs perspective, we could argue that we are both elected AND have free will.... The conundrum doesn't exist.
#7
Posted 19 September 2010 - 05:07 AM
#8
Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:50 AM
I cannot remember when I did not believe. But I do remember when I was 7 and debating whether or not to commit myself to Jesus at junior church. That was when I did decide and I went forward and sealed it with Him.Take a few minutes and think back to the day in which you actually "believed" in Christ. Was there something that you did to cause you to "believe" in Christ? Was it within your power to make yourself "believe" in Christ? If you are honest with yourself you will have to answer, "I don't know what caused me to actually "believe" in Christ, one day I just "believed". The answer to this question lies in John 6:29, Jesus answered and said unto them, "This the work of God, that you "believe" on him whom He hath sent." The word "work" in the Greek means,"to toil as an effort or occupation, an act, a labor, a work". If this is in fact true(you can look it up in Strong's concordance to verify) Jesus said, "This is the occupation of God, this is the labor of God, this is an act of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." Jesus said in John 7:16,"My doctrine(teaching)is not mine, but His that sent me." In John 8:28, Jesus said,"When you have lifted up the son of man, then shall you know that I am, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things." He also said in John 12:49-50,"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak(teach).And I know that His commandment is eternal life: whatsoever I speak therfore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak". Now read Acts 13. Pay close attention to vs.48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained(to arrange in an orderly manner)to eternal life "believed". Therefore, who are the "Believers"? But those who have been ordained to eternal life. God speaking to David in 1 Chronicles 28:6, And He said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build My house and My courts: for I have chosen him to be My son and I will be his Father. Who therefore does the choosing of His sons, causing them to believe on Him ? Not at all hard to understand. I posted this in Deeper Life and in the Theological Roundtable. The scriptures are self explanatory about this subject, and God Himself proves it. Go to the One whos job it is to lead us and guide us to the Truth, The Holy Spirit. There are a tremendous amount scriptures that back this up, all we have to do is ask.
I want to live my life so that every morning
when I wake up Satan says, "Oh, no! She's awake!
#9
Posted 19 September 2010 - 09:00 AM
Seems to me the predestination/election conundrum is created by our attempts to impose our (artificial) notion of time on the discussion.
We see the river of time from the perspective of a leaf caught in the current. God sees the river of time as if viewing it from Space. What we see as past, present and future (where we have been, where we are, and where we are going), God sees as all at once. Gods present tense includes the past, present and future simultaneously. Simply put, God is not bound in time as we are. He was quite serious when he described himself as the "I AM" (present tense).
My take is that if we look at the predestination issue from GODs perspective, we could argue that we are both elected AND have free will.... The conundrum doesn't exist.
These kinds of questions about doctrine are interesting. But I put them in perspective. They are not issues that make me accept of reject (or anyone else, I think) the Savior.
But I like understanding what scripture tells me. This one, I have prayed for wisdom about and it's still foggy. But don't we all like to think we can fully understand God and his abilities and His nature? Can we? I don't think we can fully grasp him. And this, I think, is a man made conundrum.
I think this answer from you best explains how I see it. Thanks, Dan.
There is a verse that I thought said this too.
Let me see if I can find it.
Rom. 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
I think this fits with your post, Dan.
Of course I could be very wrong. But that's where I stand now.
I want to live my life so that every morning
when I wake up Satan says, "Oh, no! She's awake!
#10
Posted 22 September 2010 - 02:27 PM
#11
Posted 23 September 2010 - 01:28 AM
#12 Guest_Marvin Harrell_*
Posted 24 September 2010 - 07:00 AM
Armenian or Calvinistic theology? How about Calvi-menian?
I had a guy ask for a buck so he could buy a burger. I gave him a buck. He said "you a Christian?" I said, "Well I do love Jesus." I think I fall to the point of both have scripture to back it up, and neither conflict with the other. So I love Jesus because he chose me, and I love him because I choose to, and there are days I struggle with loving him with my actions to his other kids, and those that don't know him yet.
#13
Posted 25 September 2010 - 11:10 AM
#14
Posted 09 October 2010 - 07:05 AM
The best book I've read on the question is Roger Olson's "Arminian Theology", published by InterVarsity Press. Obviously, he argues the Arminian side of the debate, but the book is helpful to both sides, if for no other reason than that he frames the questions involved very clearly.
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#15 Guest_Marvin Harrell_*
Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:29 PM
Cal-minianism isn't really a workable position, because the central question of the debate is, "do people have any sort of say in whether or not they are saved?" Calvinism says no, Arminianism says yes. Neither one believes that the "say" that people have is determinative in salvation - both believe that salvation is by God's grace first and last, and that no one simply by choosing can be saved. But there's really no middle ground here between no and yes. Either people have some choice in the matter, or they don't. It's possible that neither one is correct, because they are both asking the wrong question. But they can't both be correct.
The best book I've read on the question is Roger Olson's "Arminian Theology", published by InterVarsity Press. Obviously, he argues the Arminian side of the debate, but the book is helpful to both sides, if for no other reason than that he frames the questions involved very clearly.
Hi Denes! Glad to see you back! Love the graphics for the the alife article by the way--oh to have your mad skeels! I think they are looking to include it in the online version, though I do recall seeing that one of the articles can't be posted due to the subject matter. Anyhow...
I appreciate the recommendation of that book for sure. I'll need to check it out. I've not been one to intentionally and deliberately study the differences in the Calvinistic or Armenian positions--just lived in both worlds. I like your thought regarding both asking the wrong question, and have not considered that point that they can't both be correct until just this moment. Either one is right, the other is wrong, or both are wrong. But both can't be right. Really great way to communicate that. Guess that is why I love these forums. Do you or anyone else have additional books to consider regarding this often challenging issue?
#16
Posted 10 October 2010 - 04:18 AM
- elizabethcog likes this
#17
Posted 10 October 2010 - 06:01 AM
Hi Denes! Glad to see you back! Love the graphics for the the alife article by the way--oh to have your mad skeels! I think they are looking to include it in the online version, though I do recall seeing that one of the articles can't be posted due to the subject matter. Anyhow...
I appreciate the recommendation of that book for sure. I'll need to check it out. I've not been one to intentionally and deliberately study the differences in the Calvinistic or Armenian positions--just lived in both worlds. I like your thought regarding both asking the wrong question, and have not considered that point that they can't both be correct until just this moment. Either one is right, the other is wrong, or both are wrong. But both can't be right. Really great way to communicate that. Guess that is why I love these forums. Do you or anyone else have additional books to consider regarding this often challenging issue?
Thanks, Marvin! I have pneumonia, so I am on doctor-ordered bed rest, giving me time to get back in to the forum. I'm glad to be back. And I'm glad you like the story in aLife! My first graphic story cannot be posted on the web, but I am pretty sure the one in this issue will be. They were fun to do, and it's wonderful to actually use my drawing skills toward a productive end.
I personally *don't* think they are asking the wrong question, but I do have to hold it as a possibility. I'll try to think of some other books on the topic, but Olson's is the best I've seen.
Why do the world's so called best "theologians" and "relgious" people have to put you into one of two categories, Calvanism or Armenianism? Why can you just not be someone's Son or Daughter??? Should we not believe what Christ taught? Matthew 13:36-43. Plain and simple...
Thanks for the reply, jcnow. I don't think that people have to be put into one of those two categories. I think people can live their lives as faithful Christians and not ever dig deeply into the theological debate on this issue. That said, the reason this debate endures is not because people just like to argue or categorize others. It's in part because we *do* want to believe what Christ taught (both in His words on this earth and in the rest of the Scriptures that His Spirit inspired) and in some places, it's *not* plain and simple. Or, perhaps a better way to put it is that there are two broad streams of interpretation, both seeking to be true to the Scriptures and to our Lord Jesus Christ, both seeking to glorify Him and proclaim the Good News, but on reading the Bible coming to two very different conclusions. They can't both be right, but both "sides" seem to have a significant portion of the Scriptures supporting their interpretation. Both sincerely see their interpretation as correct, and while they recognize that those in the other camp are brothers and sisters, they can't agree on this point while staying true to what they see the Bible saying.
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#18
Posted 10 October 2010 - 01:11 PM
- elizabethcog and Charles Miles like this
#19
Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:11 AM
Tina
#20
Posted 11 October 2010 - 09:24 AM
Now, that's fine with me! And I'm glad it's fine with you, too.
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