7 replies to this topic

[Charles Miles]

Some dear friends of mine recently became fascinated with Jewish tradition, feasts, and all things related to Hebrew life before the birth of Jesus.  They are both Christians and have been regular church goers for many years. 

 Now it seems they have taken all this so seriously that they say they are going to "live by the Law of Moses" and use this for salvation. Well, we all know the Law is good and is indeed God`s Law as presented to the Hebrew people, but this Law has never "saved" anyone and is really meant to show us where we fail and that we need a mediator, a savior, for justification that enables us to have any relationship with God, the Father. All this being said, can we have a choice?  Not that one should, but CAN a Christian make that choice?  Attempting to follow God`s Law, and use it as a benchmark, is a route we should all strive to do, but we all know that the perfect Law is spiritual and we are all flesh and imperfect from the git-go.

  I have not offered my two-cents on this event yet, but I am concerned very much.  Can it be that 2 Christians, churched all their life, Sundayschool teachers for years, and leaders in the church....not understand what Jesus did?  Not understand that what He did was the only way we can have justification and salvation? Only one man ever kept the Law perfectly and He offers His righteousness to us because we CAN`T keep the Law. I guess I`m sort of stunned by these events and wonder if I should say anything at all in this matter. When someone you have known for years now says.."I`m keeping the Law now, just like God said we should from the very start, and that is the only way we can please God." I am too stunned to say anything at this point, but there seems to be sooooooo much that needs to be said. 

  Just a situation.  Advice?

 

Your brother who knows he must have Jesus,

 

Charlie

[Big John]

Charlie, sorry that this is so upsetting.  I get it.  I went thru a similar phase when I was like 17-18 years old.  It dawned on me as a great idea!  I discussed it with my mom at the time and she told me stuff that you could expect.  Kind of like the stuff you expressed.  I was saved and I would suspect that your friends are as well.  But salvation doesn't mean you KNOW God.  When I went away to college at 19, I was, as I see now in a very good place.  I was really seeking to know what christianity was about.  I had read "be holy"..."be perfect" and I was seeking a way to BE that.  I understand your friends plight!  But, as you know, we are flesh and flesh is inherently imperfect and corrupt.  We cannot please God!!  Wow!  That really sucks to say that.  So, I was 19 and in college and God lead me to a local church.  (I am a terrible storyteller.  Need to tell all details.  Will refrain)  Thru this church and, specifically, the pastor, I met God.  I am forever changed.  The ideas of following the old law and rituals as a means of following God are complete folly to me now.  Though I have become a student of the Tabernacle of Moses because it is a treasure trove of spiritual insights.  Anyway.  Your friends desires are not bad but are not founded on truth.  You can say what you want but the choice is theirs.  We are at our base a free will creature.  In a case like this, if they seek to debate, I would freely debate.  But if they do not seek your insight then I would let it be.  If they are truly seeking God, they will find Him.  I will leave with this story.

 

This was like 1976 or 1977.  A friend of mine at our church, Jerome, brought a heathen, Rene, to church one sunday.  This was one bad dude but they were on the college football team together.  Short version, Rene got totally saved that morning. It was crazy awesome.  Anyway, a couple weeks later, Jerome came to the Pastor and said "Rene is still going out to the bars but he tells everybody how he got saved and stuff."  The Pastor said, " Don't you worry, Jerome. if something really happened, it will show."  Rene became a totally committed and vibrant christian and part of the church.  And thats what I believe.  God has little to do with what we say and so much more with what we do.  

 

Charlie, I say, do what you want and pray for your friends.  Its up to God.

 

And He's cool with that.

 

Big John

[Charles Miles]

John, I too enjoy the study of the Law, Moses, and how those images fortell our Savior`s arrival many years later.  The sacrifices, feasts, and rituals are all pictures of what is to come, and all this sends chills up and down my spine.  As I listen to my friends talk about all the rituals they are celebrating, I get excited with them, but in a slightly different way.  I asked yesterday.."When are the two of you going to Jerusalem"?  They replied that they really don`t plan to go there.  Maybe, just maybe there is a small light starting to shine on the situation.  I think the Lord wants me to remain excited with them and for them, just as John said.  But then maybe I am to ask questions every so often.

  Their excitement is really visible.  I wish many Christians in our churches would get this excited about all that we have been offered by the Lord.  Just reading and studying Old Testament history so I can keep up with their new-found zeal has been fun and very educational.  I have known all the stories for many years, but not the minute details of Hebrew life at the time the stories happened, and how that relates to what was going on.  I contacted a Messianic Rabbi in Arizona and he gave me some good information and better insight into the situation.  If you EVER get the opportunity to sit down with a Messianic Rabbi, do not miss it!  The blending of Jewish history, Biblical history(almost the same thing), and what goes through the mind and heart of a converted Rabbi, is astounding!

[Julie Daube]

Charlie, thank you for sharing your concerns. I think the bottom line, as both you and Big John point out, is that there is absolutely nothing we can do in our own efforts to please God. The only thing that pleases Him is when we accept His free gift of eternal life, when we freely receive all that Jesus' sacrificed for us when He shed His blood for our sins.

I too would be very concerned for these dear friends of yours. First and foremost, I would pray for them (as you are already). I would ask the Holy Spirit to open their eyes to the truth, and I would pray for opportunities to dialogue with them about this.

As you pray, ask God to give you Scriptures to share with them, perhaps even from the Old Testament. Psalm 14:2-3 comes to mind: "The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

I pray that God will restore your friends to the truth.

[radar]

Hi Charlie!

 

I feel your pain! I have actually went through this myself. Since this is a salvation issue from what you have revealed, I percieve the Holy Ghost is conviciting you to to ask as Paul did in Galatians 3:1, just who bewitched them from the simplicty of the Gospel of Christ. If it were me, I would gently show my concern and ask for clarification, are they living by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who came to fulfil the law because we couldn't, or faith in themselves to live by the law of Moses for salvation. Either way, they should recognize that faith is the central issue, faith in their own works, or faith in Jesus's FINISHED work. Since they want to please God, they should know that without correct faith, it is impossible to please God.

 

Since they want to approach this from a Hebrew perspective, here is a link from a Hebrew Christian mindset that helped me to deal with this issue;  http://www.hebrew4ch...edux/redux.html

 

Also, since you put me onto this wonderful site, gotquestions.org, here is another link that may help; http://www.gotquesti...w-vs-grace.html

 

Praying that the Holy Spirit gives you courage, wisdom, and opportunity to gently correct them from this misplaced faith, and that the Lord rebuke Satan,who has blinded them from the Truth.

 

Your friend and brother in the Lord.

radar

[Kevin Blankenship]

Wow, Charlie,.......that IS a delicate situation. But there is hope for those two: "All things work together for good to all of those who love Jesus".

   And what about this:  When they realize that they cannot keep the Law.........and if they are human......they won't be able to......perhaps it will make them see a genuine need for a Saviour.  Meanwhile......I'll try to remember to pray for them.  This is very interesting.  I would love to know how it turns out for them. And I hope that it turns out that they see their need for Jesus.

[William Kay]

Charles, here's a possibility.  2 Co. 3:2 et al:

2Co 3:2  Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9  For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11  For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)

 

The ASV may give them better insights.

 

Pay particular attention to v's 11 - 14.  perhaps highlight them.

 

Perhaps making a copy and leaving it in their seat or classroom may give them better insights to what Christ was/is all about to this very day.

 

Lastly, were it me, I would not try to communicate the error, other than with the written word.

 

Hopefully, all turns out for the best.

 

[Charles Miles]

As I read all the excellent comments and suggestions posted, a situation is getting clearer and clearer.  I would not have thought it was true, but it actually does seem to be.  Many, many professing Christians do not know what the gospel actually is.  The message has been complicated by errors in theology, false teaching, and just a plain failure to read the Word and take in what it says. Salvation, to many, seems to simply be a checkbox that is to be checked(well, now I have that one done) and we move on with our lives in ignorance of what had to happen for that to be available at all.

 

Want to be shocked?  Ask a few people why there had to be an incarnation.  Ask a few people if Jesus really had to die a bloody death on the cross for our salvation(surely there could have been a simpler, less violent way).  Ask what Jesus` death on the cross gave us as Christians.  Ask if it makes a difference whether we are saved by works or faith.  Here`s a good one...ask if the muslim god is the same as Almighty God, the God of David, the God of Abraham, and if not, what differences exist between them.

 

Eye opening is not an adequate phrase for what happens when some professed Christians answer.  This is certainly not done to point fingers, or embarrass anyone, but simply one indication of why people "drift away" from Christianity and are "suckers" for other religions and false teachings.  Many of us tend to simply listen to teachers and take whatever they say as fact, and that can be dangerous....eternally dangerous.  We have the Word of God, given to us so we can know that we know, but so often neglected because we take another person`s word for what is in the Bible and what it means.

 

As I watch my friends wander, I want so much to grab them and hold on so they at least pause and think. I dare not.  I do think they have been convinced to read Gal, and Romans during the next month.  I don`t want to be another person trying to tell them what the Bible says.....that`s how they got where they are now.  God`s grace is adequate as is His Word.