9 replies to this topic

[Candice]

Some of you have read Watchman Nee's writings. I'm currently listening to an audio book, "Release of the Spirit". Watchman Nee states that there are two gospels. Yes, he states this in chapter two, explaining it as the Gospel of Christ (grace) and the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Here's the quote with a little extra before and after the sentence for context...

"....Once people are saved, God does not want them to wait before dealing with sins, to wait more years before consecration, and to wait still longer before answering the call to really follow the Lord. As soon as people believe, they should immediately turn from their sins, wholly consecrate themselves to the Lord, and break the
power of mammon. Their story should be like those recorded in the Gospels and in the Acts. To restore the gospel to its glory, the Lord must have a way in the lives of the messengers of the gospel.
In these years we have been *wholly convinced the Lord is working toward recovery. The "gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom" must be joined together. In the Gospels, these two are never separated. Only in later years does it seem that those who have heard the "gospel of grace know little or nothing of the gospel of the kingdom". Thus the two have been separated. But the time is ripe for them to be united, so that people are thoroughly saved, forsaking everything and wholly consecrating themselves to the Lord.

Let us bow our heads before the Lord and acknowledge that the gospel and the messengers of the gospel must be recovered. For the gospel to enter into men we must allow God to be manifested through us. As the effective preaching of the gospel requires more power, so the messengers of the gospel must pay a higher price. We must put everything on the altar. Let us pray thus: "Lord, I put my all on the altar. Find a way through me that the Church may also find in me a way. I would not be one who blocks Thee and blocks the Church......"

Does anyone understand this concept? It is new to me. Nee's brief explanation isn't clear to me anyways.

Candice

[reader]

In A. B. Simpson Devotional (http://www.cmallianc...votions/simpson) for today is found an explanation or at least a part.  

 

Simpson says: Thursday, October 23, 2014

It is strange that people will not get over the idea that a consecrated life is a difficult one. A simple illustration will answer this foolish impression. Suppose a streetcar operator were to say, "It is much easier to run with one wheel on the track and the other off." His line would soon be dropped by the public, who would prefer to walk. Of course, it is ever so much easier to run with both wheels on the track-and always on the track-and it is much easier to follow Christ fully than to follow Him with a half heart and halting step. Elijah was right in his pungent question, How long halt ye between two opinions? The undecided man is a halting man. The halting man is a lame man and a miserable man, but the out-and-out Christian is the admiration of men and angels and a continual joy to himself.

Say, is it all for Jesus,

As you so often sing?

Is He your Royal Master,

Is He your heart's true King?

Scripture

How long halt ye between two opinions?—1 Kings 18:21

 

[Charles Miles]

As a child and young man, I was a Southern Baptist by denomination and knew that I was saved by God`s grace. No problems about worry for my salvation or ending up in hell. All this was comforting and held me in good staid for years. Then came a severe crisis that shook me to my very soul and I realized that I had no way to deal with it. That is the point that I realized that there was more to the cross than just salvation. No one ever taught me anything about the kingdom of God, what it was, who can use it, what living in it can do for you, or really anything about this "kindom" of which Jesus spoke many, many times. What happened on the cross is important, vital, needed, and should be understood fully....but much was done there that just simply is not talked about. Many of us arrive at the cross with humble gratitude, astounded at what was done, how God`s Son was a scrifice for us,and certainly this is all very, very true....BUT....the cross is not a place to sit down and wait or a place to sit down and do nothing until Christ returns. The cross is a door. A door into the kingdom of God that contains so many ggod things for us all that we cannot possibly comprehend all that is there. A careful read will show that Christ gave us the "keys OF the kingdom" not the key TO the kingdom. The key to the kingdom is the sacrifice done at the cross, defeat of satan, and resurection. These other keys OF the kingdom are keys to unlock the treasures that await the children of God who venture through this door that is the cross, and unlock all the good things found on the other side of that door. Oh it is an important dor and must be used by all who enter, but it is a door nonetheless.

What if a new shoe store opened in your town and the ad in the newspaper only talked about how beautiful their new door was, as seen from the street? "Come see our fantastic door, one of a kind, the most expensive door anywhere, once you see our door you will know we are open and serious about business! Crowds arrived in the street and stood on the sidewalk, sat on the steps beneath that door, but no one opened the door, walked through it into the store to look and buy shoes? It wouldn`t take long for this store to start having problems.

The cross should be preached and the need for it cannot be over emphisized, but for some reason, very few sermons get preached about what it means to us in our daily walk. It is a means to get back to a relationship with God and to be able to live in His kingdom as His child, one of His family, more that just a mere citizen of God`s kindom.....a family member of the King and a joint heir with the Son of the King. Please tell me something more wonderful than that? Why don`t we hear more about it? Jesus thought is was important enough to start many parables and stories with "The kingom of God is like....". The sermon on the Mount was a desciption of life in this new kingdom.

We cannot have all the benifits of this kingdom now, here on earth, but we can have some of it, so I want all of it I can have right now. How much can we have? I don`t know, but how much do we ask to have right now? You want peace? It is there. You want understanding? It is there.You want God to live in your heart? He will. You want to get worry, anxiety, hate, and fear out of your life? The releif from all this is right there.

I love what little part of this kingdom I see right now, but I want more! Jesus said we could have it and that we would see it, and I believe Him. I feel that as our walk with the Lord gets more and more close, the more of this kindom will become available for us. He gave us the keys to everything in this kingdom, now we just need to know how to use them to the glory of God.

Sorry for the long post, but I am simply so excited about kingdom living I just study and pray about it daily.

Praise our Father God and His Kingdom Rule,

Charlie

[Julie Daube]

Awesome post, Charlie! Really profound stuff. Just recently, I've been reading about the word "salvation" as used in the Bible and what it actually means. If you look at that word in the original language, it encompasses not just deliverance from the penalty of sin but also carries the idea of victory, health, preservation and well-being. Beyond salvation from sin and death, Christ purchased so many other benefits for us at the cross; yet many (if not most) of His people are still standing at the door and have no idea what wonderful things are waiting inside. Like you, I also want more. I want to truly live as a joint heir with Christ, seated with Him in heavenly places. . . to experience the following promise in all of its fullness: "As Jesus Christ is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17)

[Ginger]

I've been thinking about how Jesus paid for all sins and gives all grace and also how the thief on the cross asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus told him this day you will be with me in paradise. 
 
Somehow it seems to me that Jesus is always the Way, the Truth, and the Life for any situation I ever face.  Perhaps I can only come to Jesus and ask Him to give me whatever will make me understand or whatever I need to confess or bring to the cross asking for a true knowledge of whatever I need to repent of, and to receive His grace and His righteousness afresh. ... just  to know He began a good work in me and He will bring it to completion, this sort of symbolizes how grace works to bring me into kingdom living by faith and sometimes have a glimmer of being seated with Christ in heavenly places. 
 
Even though I sin and fail I'm still a citizen of His kingdom by His grace and His righteousness. To believe and know I'm not of this world but am in it and sometimes just think of each person that is born again is a living stone that Christ is building His church with and somehow each of us is a rare and precious treasure to Him and by the grace of God we are so blessed to have Him living in us in spite of what the world, the flesh, or the devil may do .... well, the kingdom of God is in us  and one glorious day we will see Him and be changed in the twinkling of an eye and truly see grace, victory, the kingdom of God and most of all we will see our King of kings and Lord of lords.  Thinking on heavenly things can be thinking on to see Jesus on that day.  This surely fosters hope, stirs faith and fans love.... and helps to keep on keeping on this day.
 
...grace to us and glory to Him.... well, I don't know much but to look to Jesus and be in a sense of awe marveling about Jesus being in me and in each person who has been born anew from above ... may I see Jesus in brothers and sisters in Christ by His grace while walking in some measure of resurrection life because He raised me and graced me to be filled with His Spirit (not totally full but to the level He knows that I need to do what He purposes) ... do I look like I have God's Spirit?  Does my environment look like it?  Nope, not by my human sight.  Maybe I don't have much fruit and leave that to God's tender mercies and grace.... God KNOWS and all I can do is to share however feebly and give thanks for the Salvation we have been given and each morning grace is new.... can't help but wonder what new growth and ongoing sanctification God will grace us with ... so just ask Him whatever you want Dear Lord may your will be done.... please and thank you, amen.
 
Some people don't know how to explain much but we can say, "Jesus", and just want Him to be Lord of all... well maybe all that I know is that God KNOWS.
 
Thank each of you for sharing your posts.  Somehow it's like seeing or imagining Jesus building His church and the gates of hell will not prevail against His church and won't prevail against one stone that He molds and shapes and puts in just the right place.  What a glorious place to belong....
 
O praise you God for being God and so kind to us.  Thank you for letting us see you and your grace at work by faith and sometimes we can marvel over results that You through your grace and mercy reveal, Thank you God for all that you are and for all that you do.
 
Abba Father, my Lord Jesus, Blessed Holy Spirit.... You are more than any amount of thinking can begin to imagine to comprehend.
 
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
 
Kept by God's grace and tender mercies,

Ginger

PS: I am sorry for post being so long...
please forgive me....

found the book
Books by Watchman Nee # 62.
Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 54: How to Study the Bible & The Breaking of the Outer Man and the Release of the Spirit
http://www.ministryb...n-nee-books.cfm

[seeker]

Hi Candice,

I've been on your journey as well. I have found the answer to our difficulty in the church today. There is little mention of the crucified life found in Romans 6:6 anymore. If you haven't already, I would suggest reading Watchman Nees book, The Messenger of the cross. It speaks to much of what you wrote.

[Charles Miles]

As I read and study about what is happening in our churches today, I can`t help but realize that the average church member in the US is about 60y/o.  Most of these who are active, are the faithful who come every Sunday, tithe, and are active in church affairs.  Let me start off by saying that church membership in no way identifies who actually has a relationship with the Lord, or even those who are saved, but it does point out a glaring fact.....we are losing the young people.

 

I think one reason we don`t do such a great job in keeping young people in our churches is that we often give them the wrong teaching about what it means to be a Christian, a follower of the Way, and how kingdom life is supposed to effect our lives.  We tell the young people.."become a Christian, believe what Christ did on the cross for you, work hard to be a good person, tithe, get involved in your church, and you won`t have any trouble in life". Well, once these youngsters leave home for school or for a job in the world, they learn very quickly that what they were told was wrong! It is a blow to learn that all the things learned in the Sunday School class, Summer youth programs, and most sermons all was wrong......or at least very incomplete.  It seems to me that the lessons to be taught should have to do with having a personal relationship with the Lord, learning to trust Him no matter what happens out there in the world, and that ....."the righteous shall live by faith".  All through life, stuff happens, and all of it does not seem to be to our benefit, in fact, a lot of it hurts, stresses, and seems to be a bunch of stuff that God just could not allow to happen to someone who has done all the things they were taught to do while growing up in a church.

 

Many young people have these things happen and then simply mark off all they were told by good Christian teachers as just a pile of rubbish......then they go their own way with no faith in what God promises.  Tragic!  Some finally do come back but most do not. 

 

Now I am not attempting to find fault with the Church, but I do think there are problems within churches today, and that seems to be a big one.  It seems easy to fix, doesn`t it?  Well, it isn`t all that easy at all.  Many of our youth leaders today were brought up in churches teaching just what I described and they themselves have not been out in the world long enough to run into that "brick wall" we call satan.  I see more and more youth leaders walking away from their posts after being confronted by tragic, confusing situations.  Many Bible Colleges and seminaries teach a lot about youth programs and how to organize youth rallies and activities, but never get into the need for a personal, trusting, deep, relationship with the Lord.

 

As you can guess, we have been dealing with these problems in our church over the past year or so.   It does seem to be resolving a bit, but not after many, many hours of prayer and closed door discussions with teachers.

 

May God pour out His blessings upon all those who earnestly seek Him and seek to do His will,

 

Charlie

[Kevin Blankenship]

Candace, I cannot explain it.  But it is certainly food for thought!!!  Therefore, I cannot add anything to all of the great replies that came afterward. 

[CamFultz]

Some of you have read Watchman Nee's writings. I'm currently listening to an audio book, "Release of the Spirit". Watchman Nee states that there are two gospels. Yes, he states this in chapter two, explaining it as the Gospel of Christ (grace) and the Gospel of the Kingdom.
Here's the quote with a little extra before and after the sentence for context...

"....Once people are saved, God does not want them to wait before dealing with sins, to wait more years before consecration, and to wait still longer before answering the call to really follow the Lord. As soon as people believe, they should immediately turn from their sins, wholly consecrate themselves to the Lord, and break the
power of mammon"

Does anyone understand this concept? It is new to me. Nee's brief explanation isn't clear to me anyways.

Candice

Hi Candice,

I think these “two Gospels” spoken of are two halves of the same Gospel, but for whatever reason, our modern American brand of evangelicalism emphasizes the first half and then just plugs new believers into ministry and let them fend for themselves – work hard for God, follow as best you can, study your Bible…

 

I think Nee’s point is very similar to how Major Ian Thomas would have approached it by quoting Romans 5:10.

 

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Romans 5:10 ESV

 

The second half of the Gospel is the “much more”.  We are so good at leading people to Christ and begin the new birth relationship and realization that Jesus died for me.  It’s wonderful – all true. And yet there is a “much more” than just reconciliation.  The “much more” is the present saving by and through Jesus’ life in operation in the believer. I refer to this as the John 14:20 dynamic.

 

In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. John 14:20 ESV

 

This is what Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 3:17 when he prays that Christ would dwell richly in our hearts and in Ephesians 3:16 of being “strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being”.  All these are the relationship of life where Jesus's actual nature and character conforms and transforms us through His “saving life” dwelling richly in the inner person.

Now if we taught this part of the Gospel more clearly, then people might stop asking about why they are here on earth or falsely make statement like, “oh we will all someday understand when we get to heaven.” Those phrases are deceptions from the enemy that he uses to make Christians miss the treasure in the jar of clay (2 Corinthians 4:6-7). Paul was very concerned about this in his day and age:

 

But I fear, perhaps as the serpent cheated Eve in his cleverness, so should your thoughts be corrupted from the simplicity, of the one in the Christ.  2 Corinthians 11:3 ABP

 

The Gospel of the “much more” is very simple and the enemy has been trying to steer the church away from the simplicity of the John 14:20 dynamo.  It can also be said as John the Baptist said in John 3:30, “I must decrease and He must increase”.  His increase in me is the “much more” saving life.

 

The beginning and continual lifestyle of a disciple is Galatians 2:20. All attempts at following Christ without Galatians 2:20 realized in the most intimate way is futility.

 

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 ESV

 

He gave Himself…that is the saving life. Paul isn’t talking about the past giving on the cross. No, there is life now and that life is Christ doing the living. It is not abstract or a commodity, but Himself in reality and right now. This is what makes us “not of this world”.

 

Paul’s prayer for the churches should always be our prayer for our church.

 

…in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, Ephesians 1:16-18 ESV

 

It is God who needs to give us a revelation in the full knowledge of Jesus that actually can cause our hearts to see Him in nature and character. This is what Jesus goes on to say in John 14:21-23 about manifesting Himself in us. That word means to manifest the true nature and character of a thing that was previously hidden. The same Greek word is used in Colossians 3:3-4 for “appear”.

 

For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then…

 

Christ as the daily saving Life of the believer present through the Holy Spirit it what I think Nee is referring to.

[Candice]

Hi Cameron,

Welcome to this forum! I'm glad you're here.

You quote:
...."The beginning and continual lifestyle of a disciple is Galatians 2:20. All attempts at following Christ without Galatians 2:20 realized in the most intimate way is futility."

This really sums it all up doesn't it. Thank you for your reply.

You drive home the point that I believe needs to be made. I think the importance and centrality of Ga. 2:20 and other similar verses you quote here just are not taught any longer. At least not in the sense of  Christ being the life. That's why I seek those writers who expound this. I think many Calvary Chapel Churches drive this home or at least they used to.

I too discovered Major Ian Thomas a few years ago. "If I Perish, I Perish" is also a great book that he wrote. You ought to read it some time.  My friend who now lives in Colorado spent time with Mr. Thomas just before his death a few years ago.  She said all he talked about was the Lord and it was very humbling and special to spend time with him.

I will order your book. Looks very good.