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Do blessings immediately follow obedience?


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#1 Julie Daube

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 02:23 PM

Several years ago, a fellow church member asked my husband and me how he could pray for us. We told him that my husband was unemployed, so we’d appreciate prayer for our finances.

A couple of weeks later, our friend offered to lend us a book that he thought would encourage us. We agreed to read it. I don’t remember the title or the author, but I do remember the premise: blessings always immediately follow obedience.

The book contained testimonies of believers who were struggling financially or had some fiscal need. In each instance, the person heard a sermon about giving and decided to give sacrificially to the offering—sometimes giving the last few dollars he had left.

Soon (usually within a week or even that night), these donors were tangibly rewarded for their obedience. Some came into inheritances, others landed lucrative jobs, and many received large sums of money or other material rewards.

The message was clear: If you obey God by giving sacrificially, you will receive an immediate, monetary benefit. And if you’re struggling financially, all your problems will magically disappear if you simply put more money in the offering plate.

There was another implication: believers who suffer lack are probably being less than generous with their finances. I wondered if our friend thought that about my husband and me.

We returned the book and thanked him for lending it to us. We decided not to tell him it didn’t have the impact he hoped it would.

Several months later, our pastor preached a sermon entitled, “Blessings Do Not Always Immediately Follow Obedience.” His text was based in part on the life of Joseph, who suffered greatly for resisting the advances of Potiphar’s wife. The pastor referred to other biblical personages, including Job, who endured terrible hardship even though they were obedient.

The preacher concluded his sermon with a call for compassion: When you see a fellow believer going through hard times, don’t assume they are being disciplined or suffering the consequences of disobedience. Sometimes, he said, we will suffer precisely because of our obedience.

This is seen vividly in countries where Christians are persecuted for following Jesus. It was evident in the life of the apostle Paul, who endured beatings, shipwrecks, hunger, cold, nakedness, imprisonment, slander and more. He ultimately lost his life because of his obedience to the gospel.

This is not to say there are no rewards for obeying God's call on our lives. Galatians 6:9 says, "And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up" (Galatians 6:9). But I think it's important to remember that the blessing we receive may not always be tangible—and we may not be rewarded for much of the good we do until we get to heaven.
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#2 Big John

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:48 PM

Julie, you are so right!  

 

This type of thinking is a trap but is commonly preached by many.  God does not use formulas.  I recall the words of an old chorus that said "obedience brings heaven down".  You can interpret that as you wish but I believe that the true blessing that results from obedience is more of His presence in our lives.  And it COULD mean something more tangible as well.  But the greatest blessing we can receive is more of Jesus.    

 

I have 2 great heroes of the faith in my life that personally touched and influenced me.  My grandmother and my long time senior pastor.  The only commonality that I am aware of between the 2 was that they were both powerful in prayer.  I learned some of what I know about prayer from both but I had to find my own place before Him on my own.  

 

His presence is the reward of obedience.

 

Big John


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#3 Julie Daube

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:16 AM

I love this, Big John: "But the greatest blessing we can receive is more of Jesus."

So true!

#4 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:42 AM

Jesus was sitting at the place in the temple with several of his disciples. They were watching the people give their "offerings" and along came this very poor little lady and gave a couple of mites.  "Then a destitute widow came and dropped in two small copper coins, worth about a cent. He called his disciples and told them, "I tell all of you with certainty, this destitute widow has dropped in more than everyone who is contributing to the offering box, because all of them contributed out of their surplus, but out of her poverty she has given everything she had to live on."

    Jesus had a really good chance right there to teach about sacrificial giving and how the giver can benefit from this. HE didn't.  His point was:  The widow gave ALL she had to live on. The rich folks, who put in much more, didn't even come close to the sacrifice that she made. Now........to connect this with another teaching of Jesus:

 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with ya treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

     "Finally, my last example of what I think is God's message concerning this:

But God told him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded back from you. Now who will get the things you've accumulated?' But God told him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded back from you. Now who will get the things you've accumulated?'"

    The gospel of "give so that you can get" was never preached in the old classics or by any of Tozer's old sermons.  The message that I get is just to:  Be obedient.....and in that.....be content.


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#5 Guest_Marvin Harrell_*

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:01 AM

This has really blessed me, y'all. Great reminders of no matter our circumstances, God is not moved in his posture of love for his little ones…

 

I get so tired of the lie that "money follows (fill in the blank)" and "if you (fill in the blank) you will unlock the treasures of heaven." Well congratulations…you've just relegated Jesus' blood and sacrifice to the level of a genie in a bottle or some sort of incantation. Just makes me sick. Jesus did not die to line my pockets…he loves me too much for that. He did much more than that, he secured my eternity…greater wealth than the entire planet can offer.

 

Thank you for allowing me to rant a little bit. Julie, I admire your gracious spirit. Big John and Kevin, I admire your support of the topic. Great conversation everyone!



#6 CHRISTOPHER310

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

We have already been blessed way before we gave our obedience to God. God gave up his one and only son, Jesus, for us, our salvation way before we ever obeyed God. To treat our obedience to God as a give and take or a reward system only shows the greediness of man, even as a follower and believer. We should not be concern what God gives us back in return for our obedience, but more concern to if we are being truly obedient to God. Let’s not be greedy and ask for more than what God as already given us, but instead, be thankful as we give back to him as he directs us to.

That book you read seems to be of a worldly view hidden under false faith in God. Many books are written that way sad to say. Saying something, thinking it is of a positive use or glory to God or believers when it really comes out to be nothing more than another useless book of worldly reading and opinions. If you want to know the truth, do not seek books written by man or the worldly view, but seek it in reading the Bible. The Bible is the book that holds all the answers and truths God wants us to know at this time. We need not to seek further in reading than the Bible.


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#7 Julie Daube

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:33 PM

"We have already been blessed way before we gave our obedience to God. God gave up his one and only son, Jesus, for us, our salvation way before we ever obeyed God." Well said, Christopher!

As believers, we are not blessed because of our obedience - we are blessed because of our position in Christ and what He did for us. It's not about what we do but about what He already did. Thanks for pointing that out!

#8 Julie Daube

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:39 PM

Kevin, I love your description of the gospel of "give so that you can get." Sadly, my husband and I have heard this false gospel in several churches we attended. At one church, a guest preacher invited people to come forward to receive prayer on the condition that they give to his ministry. It was like he was charging a fee to pray for people! Very sad to see this in the Body of Christ.

#9 chipped china

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:02 PM

I have a little saying I tell myself when my attitude about giving isn't perfect. It's not giving if it doesn't hurt a little. And the negative emotion is saying I don't trust God to provide in the future. My provision has already been lovingly provided.

 

May we all find His deep peace daily as we look to Him. This was a wonderful discussion, thanks everyone. Bets



#10 CHRISTOPHER310

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 04:30 AM

Why are we so concern over our blessings, especially based on our obedience? Is it worldly greed we are expressing under the cloak of proclaiming our faith?

We have the ultimate blessing. Someone suffered way more than we ever have and than voluntarily allowed themselves to die a horrible, painful death to save us. All out of love. Something not one of us can say with any form of truth we would really do for another. We already have been blessed to such a high level.

Why are we seeking more blessings and why over our obedience? Is this not worldly greed being expressed? We have been given the chance for salvation in the blessing already given in a way no one else would ever give us. Any additional blessings should not come as a condition or thought of return for our obedience.



#11 ADVRider

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Posted 26 July 2014 - 09:21 AM

This has been a great thread, but the main thrust has been on the idea taught in some circles, that you receive material blessings for giving finances, i.e., obedience. I think Julie and others have clearly shown the error of that. In the circles that promote this idea, it's actually quite a problem. In some places, it is their core message.

I think the simple message in the N.T. is that God says He will take care of our needs. This is quite different than what is taught at some churches where a "godliness is gain" message appeals to our fleshly appetites. Not only do these types of blessings not come immediately, they don't come at all, because it is a form of manipulation that is being taught as gospel. God is never obliged to erroneus ideas, even those that can be held by His children.

I would like to say here in this thread that while we are debunking a false use of the concept of obedience, I think it is important to stress that obedience to God, properly understood and framed, is very important. What do we mean when we discuss obedience, and that like another thread, obedience brings blessings? Does it? Or does it not? Are we speaking of a God who is so patient or ambivalent, He really does not care how we respond? Let me also say in framing the question and in order to clarify, I am not referring in any way to legalism, works salvation, human attempts at sanctification, finances, following man or his teachings, or confusing the word obedience with what I would call general faithfulness to God and His word. Julie is quite right; a person can be faithful (obedient if you will) and long periods can pass where nothing happens or changes. We are called to that. It is also called faith (faithfulness), and Hebrews 11 is a good place to read about that, as well as the examples Julie cited. But there is another scriptural use of the the word obedience, where God speaks something specific to a person that they must do, in order for God to do something. To be clear again, I am not speaking of something a man tells us or a mis-application of the Bible we may have come to learn. I am talking about the voice of God or the leading of the Spirit in a specific way to an individual. We cannot lose sight of this; it is scriptural and not in conflict with grace and the sovereignty of God. There are situations and times when "obedience brings blessing" (or results) is absolutely true. Said another way, when the believer chooses his or her own way, what God wanted to do does not happen. Let me add, this is not a point of guilt; God is patient and He is not looking for perfection in the flesh. I am not referring to these ideas that our minds quickly go to. I am referring to, "yes, Lord, I will do that for you." "Yes, Lord, I heard what you told me and even though it's hard, I will do that." Or even, "yes Lord, I don't know what you are asking me, but I will trust you. Can you help me believe"? It is in this sense, that obedience is actually necessary. I once knew a believer who totally rejected this because he thought I was saying his salvation rested on what he did. He thought this idea of obeying God as necessary was against the concept of grace. Grace is actually needed to obey God, not the other way around. A good biblical picture of this kind of obedience is when the prophet told Naaman he must dip in the Jordan seven times. If you read the passage, Naaman was furious and insulted. But, he wasn't going to be cleansed unless he did it. Abram was told to go to a land God would show him. If he hadn't of done it, guess what? He would not have received the blessing.

Just wanted to highlight (clumsily I might add) that there is a scriptural concept of obedience that is very important. It is not centered around the idea of us living up to God's word (although that is a form of obedience too) or someone's interpretation of it. That is what we mostly think of when we hear the word obedience, and in truth, we cannot live up to God's word on our own. But let's not confuse that idea of obedience (faithfulness) with the idea of simply doing something God specifcally tells us to do personally. This obedience, based in faith and trust in a Person, is critical to growth, blessing, maturity and even destiny. And be quick to obey if God gets on your case about not doing something or not going down a certain path. I said it before in another thread; we serve a living God who speaks today. He will on occasion, be specific about your life at times, if you are listening. When He speaks, it is for a reason. Do what He says, and if you cannot at the moment, tell Him you need His help to obey. Grace will come, because you have humbled yourself.

There are some things God will say, and He expects a response. There are those times I must do what He is asking or saying, for Him to do what needs to be done in me, through me, for me, or whatever. Obedience in this sense, simply echoes the command to follow Jesus, found throughout the N.T. And the O.T. for that matter. There is no negative or guilt connotation to this concept of obedience, because we are only talking about God asking us to do something we can do, not something we cannot. We are not speaking of striving in the flesh on our own or following our concept (presumption) of what God wants. It's specific obedience to something God has specifically required of us, at a point in time. But finally, to Julie's question: does the blessing come immediately even for this specific obedience? Sometimes. Sometimes not. But when obedience is given, I believe someting is set in motion spiritually. The result may be a process, but something inside has begun, be it growth, maturity, release of calling, etc. Not to sound weird, but obedience of this kind is a sort of agreement or covenant, where God is now able to act in a certain area of our lives. Please understand I am not saying this puts us in the driver's seat. This is where people get goofed up with the name it and claim it thing. God is the initiator of the things being discussed, not us. We agree with something He clearly said, not something we imagined He said. When He said it and we obey, then He does what our cooperation required. He is a gentleman and wants a response. He did not make us robots. But he is still Lord and still the One who gets to lay out the terms. I think Paul even said in Hebrews that we even listened to our natural fathers when they disciplined us. That is a good picture of the obedience I am discussing. We know that some results (blessings?) in our natural families were incumbent on our cooperation with "dad." "Yes dad" and "no dad" brought different results, if you had a good dad. No clean your room, no sleeping over your friend's house next weekend. Not hard to understand when we see the parallel. Just remember the key to this is relationship, love and trust, not duty, legalism or religion. Then, you'll be okay and you'll fulfill "those who love Me, obey Me."
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#12 Charles Miles

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:21 AM

In Romans, Paul writes about the "obedience of faith", and to me that means our faith will lead us to be obedient to the Lord in our everyday life. We certainly don`t work at being obedient so we can increase our faith, but we are obedient because we love God and want to please Him. As far as reward for obedience goes, well, the obedience is what God expects of His children. Imagine driving down the street, coming to an intersection, and stopping at a red light......then seeing a police car on the side street, going over and asking for your reward for stopping at the light! I would imagine the officer`s response might be..."I`m pleased that you stopped, because that was the right thing to do, and you obeyed the law.....keep up the good work". Now, I`m not comparing God to a trffic cop, but just a poor illustration of what happens with obedience. Hey, it`s expected and it obviously pleases God when we are showing traits that He says His children are supposed to have.

In Christ,

Charlie

#13 Julie Daube

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 02:26 PM

Thank you, John, for your excellent, biblical insights on the importance of obeying God when He specifically us to do something. As you point out, there are many instances in Scripture where God acted in response to people’s obedience. Others that come to mind are:

 

Go ask neighbors for empty jars.
Go to Egypt to set My people free.
Raise your staff over the Red Sea.
Raise your arms over the battlefield.
Set foot in the Jordan and it will part.
Fill six stone jars with water.

My own life changed forever when I took a step of obedience in response to something I knew that God was asking me to do. It was out of comfort zone, and I was pretty apprehensive. My obedience did not lead to an immediate, obvious reward; instead, it set into motion a series of events that led me to meet my future husband, leave the Catholic Church, and eventually move to Colorado Springs and serve the Lord at the C&MA National Office. All of these things were major aspects of God’s plan for my life. In short, I am convinced that His destiny for me would not have been fulfilled had I not taken that step of obedience. So yes, obedience in response to what God asks us to do is vitally important. It can make or break our destinies.

In my case, obedience ultimately brought great blessings to my life, but they were not immediate. Also, there was often a lot of pain and difficulty intertwined with the blessings. But I shudder to think what my life would have been like if I had not done what God asked me to do. I very likely would have married the wrong person (an unbeliever I was dating at the time). More importantly, I’m not at all sure that I would have had the intimate, life-giving relationship I have with Jesus today if I hadn’t obeyed Him back then. And I certainly would not have been nearly as effective for His Kingdom if I had stayed in my comfort zone.


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#14 ADVRider

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 07:36 PM

Julie,

 

That is a good testimony. Often, there has to be a work of the Spirit in our lives (grace) to bring us to a place where we can obey whatever it is God needs us to do. Why is that? Because it takes trust, and trust has to be built, even trust in God. It is not automatic that we trust God just because we become born-again; that is only the birth. There has to be a growth that begins and continues, through fellowship with the Spirit. The Lord gains our trust as we walk with Him and get to know Him over time. As trust is built, He can then ask us to venture into the unknown. Into the deep. Move to a foreign country. Sell your house. Quit your job and become a missionary, etc. Often therefore, when God speaks, it's not an easy thing He says. It requires trust. Getting there may be a struggle and a process, but God is patient and He will work with us; I've seen it in my own life where He had to encourage me in regard to a situation because my trust level was not there yet. So even the obedience part of the equation is a process too. In fact, it usually takes a process when God is asking something of us that seems overwhelming to us. I call  it "stretching" or "pruning," whereby growth or transformation takes place once the trust has been formed and acted upon.

 

This sounds like what may have been your exerience too, Julie. If I understood correctly, it was a step in response to something God was specifically asking of you; it was not a religious stab in the dark (faith is the substance of things hoped for, meaning there is a promise, prompting or word from God that is the object of the believing). When you did what God was saying, something took place in heaven and a real transaction or transformation began. Anyway, I really thought this aspect of obedience should be highlighted because this type of practical and simple obedience (we could just as easily call it faith or trust) is sometimes overlooked as if God does not speak today, or direct us in a real way as His children. I am aware some who may read this will disagree and affirm the idea that God does not personally direct or speak anymore, even though He used to. I know my previously mentioned acquaintance apparently did not. But I would ask then, Why bother speaking to a God about (fill in the blank) who isn't able (or willing) to speak with us personally? Just a thought. To me, this is the larger question that looms over the question of obedience. If God does not speak (or act) today, then faith, trust and obedience can become a very murky, meaningless concept; for example, a person could believe God is real and be a Christian, but there could be very little evidence of God's reality and being in that person's life. God wants us to experience more than just the change that took place at our salvation. He wants us to experience Himself, and in order for that to happen, there must be an ongoing conversation, a relationship with His Spirit. His written word is a big part of that, but His Spirit is part of that dialogue as well. 

 

Does God still speak directly and specifically today through various means? Or does He only speak general principles through the Bible which we then personally apply? Can a person hear and obey God regarding something specific and personal today on the basis of the former statement? What about stories of God speaking today in dreams to people of a certain large religion and them coming to a knowledge of, and faith in Jesus? What do you think?


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#15 Julie Daube

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:48 AM

"Does God still speak directly and specifically today through various means? Or does He only speak general principles through the Bible which we then personally apply? Can a person hear and obey God regarding something specific and personal today on the basis of the former statement? What about stories of God speaking today in dreams to people of a certain large religion and them coming to a knowledge of, and faith in Jesus? What do you think?"

I absolutely believe that God still speaks directly and specifically to His people today, just as He did in biblical times. The Bible says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. So we shouldn't expect that He would stop speaking to people through dreams, visions, and other means (in fact, the Book of Acts specifically states that in the end times, God will be doing just that).

I've read dozens of stories about God speaking in dreams and visions to adherents of that large religion to which you referred; in fact, someone who had such an experience spoke at a N.O. chapel some years back.

Thanks again for chiming in, John - you've added a lot to this discussion!

#16 Charles Miles

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 03:44 PM

You know, I certainly don`t think blessing immediately follows obedience, although God does expect us to try to be obedient.  I do thank God that His wrath does not immediately follow disobedience.  Thank you Lord for your word, thank you for your instructions, but than you most of all for your grace.  How long have all of us been guilty of disobedience that is mediated by your wonderful grace.  Thank you Lord.

 

Charlie


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