22 replies to this topic

[CHRISTOPHER310]

I have to know how others feel about church. What they like about church and what they don’t like about it? The things they find at church they enjoy and the things they don’t find but wish they did find at church.

I personally love going to church and being apart of it. The people are awesome and the sense of belonging, being wanted, being loved, and the opportunities to learn, explore, grow, and share. I love church alot, but...

I am not finding what I am seeking from church. I don’t find the enthusiasm from other believers to be beyond a expected standard autopilot scheduled thing. Like other believers do believe, but they don’t hold any real passion for the faith. Like they are there because they believe and as such, are expected to be there, doing certain things and say certain things, but that is it. No enthusiasm to go beyond what is expect from them as a  believer. No desires to grow or expand. Living the believe on a expected scheduled basic terms only when at church. Existing but not living. Automatic pilot, but not really flying beyond to higher, greater areas of the faith for themselves or the world.

I want more than this from a church. More from my time spent with fellow believers. I don’t want to just go to church and do and say what is expected of me when it is expected because I am another believer. To just sit and listen to the message and mingle here and there and then it’s time to leave. Go back to the world with little impacts from my time spent at church and around other believers. No, I want more than this from my time with church and others believers. I want to go beyond just existing as a believer as I am expec6ed to. I want to live as a believer. To fly beyond the boundaries of church into higher, greater areas of my faith.

There is endless possibilities welcomed to all who believe, but very few I have ever come across ever explore those possibilities. The churches I have attended, as much as I love going, don’t encourage much of anything other than the basics that are expected. I am not happy with this and have not been able to find what I truly seek from a church or the believers there.

I love church, but feel like church has self imposed limitations with little desire to go beyond what is expected. I need more. I want more. And to those who believe I am in the honeymoon sage of being a new believer, that is not the case. I have had that sage and have concluded it. I am in the sage I have always been as a believer from day one. Passionate and driven to live the faith for me and the world I am in, not just the church as expected to, as scheduled to.

How do other people feel about church? What they enjoy and what they don’t enjoy? Anything and everything.

[ADVRider]

Christopher,

 

If you don't mind; curious of what type of church you last attended? There are so many as you know, and all of them won't meet everyone's expectation. It is also possible to expect things that no local church can deliver. Mostly, a church and its members should come alongside, but in itself, these are not a functional equivalent to our relationship with God. There is much in our relationship with the Lord that has to be worked out between us and God. That said, I think some churches are better than others at coming alongside and encouraging the members. Some have committed believers that take their faith seriously, some are more like social clubs (that aren't even very social anymore). Others are lively and Spirit-filled in their expression and some are very traditional and basically dead spiritually. Some are becoming liberal and PC. Many are ingrown and focus on success, happiness and motivational talks instead of the gospel. Some of the latter might have the most glitter. If there is little or no gospel, there will be no deep Christian expression.

 

I am guessing you are desiring fellowship beyond the confines of the four walls on Wednesday night, etc. If that is part of it, I understand your concern. It does often seem these days like church is only a place we go and a thing we do; for many, that is all it is. I have often thought, maybe everyone is so busy these days that they don't feel they have time for commitments beyond the program or schedule of the church. I meet with a group in a home every other week or so, but I also "hang" with some of these people regularly. They have become my family away from "home" where I grew up.

 

Anyway, I like churches where there is heartfelt worship and the Spirit of God is given the place of honor. One also where the believers love Jesus and are vibrant in their faith and fellowship. It can be hard to find in some locales. On the other side of the aisle, I don't care too much for liturgical type settings. That has never done too much for me because when I met Jesus, I discovered He was alive and present, and so, I don't need a ritual to worship Him.

[DonnaA]

Skip to the "long story short" if you want a quick answer.  

 

I grew up in a Baptist setting and yet somehow I ended up marrying a Roman Catholic ... we were married around 7 years when the Lord nudged me to join my husband's faith (I know that's going to raise some eyebrows, trust me, I wrestled with it, too ... but if you were there and knew the circumstances you would see why the Lord shoved me in that direction).  A few years later he left our family ... the priest/nuns took really good care of us .... eventually we separated/divorced and I felt the Lord leading us in a different direction, so my children and I made our way to an independent Bible church that had a good program for the youth.  I was a single mom for six years when I met my soul mate ... he was raised Brethren/Methodist ... we were married in my mother's Pentecostal church, but continued to attend the independent church (which would not marry us because of my divorce, even though it was my ex's infidelity that led to our separation ... and yet, the assoc. pastor attended our wedding).  Years later we moved out of state and went church hunting. We thought we had settled on one with a similar youth program.  My son decided to go on a mission trip with an organization for Teens, but the mission was not affiliated with that particular denomination and so they did not openly mention it in prayer or seem to support it, so we left and found a church that was more mission minded, rather than thinking that they have a monopoly on the gospel.  Over the years I've attended Baptist, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Catholic, Pentecostal, Nazarene and various Independent churches.  I've attended a home church, churches that meet in schools, open-air churches and a church that gathered in a small windowless shack beside a railroad track, with barely enough room for the people to squeeze inside.  I've noticed that (in my particular circumstance) it seems like churches have become more business-like and less worshipful ..... they've become noisy and casual (people easily pop open a soda or even grab a coffee at the "shop" in the lobby) .... and tending to community needs requires a majority vote before anyone can lift a finger to help .....  

 

 

I miss the liturgical setting, the reverence, the urge to get on your knees and the familiar chanting of prayers in unison.  I'll never forget the time my husband and I were on a cruise and we joined the worship service ... when we got to the Lord's prayer, I heard at least four different languages around me, all in unison as the priest led us in worship.  That blessed my heart in a huge way.  If only we could do more things like that in unison, as ONE body ....  I'm tired of the noise of various instruments that are so loud I can't hear the people around me singing and during the sermon I see children playing games or on their cell phones ....  I'm tired of the lack of respect for teachers and preachers.  I love how our pastor really digs into the Word of God in his sermons, but he's not respected as a man of God.

 

 

Long story short .... I have a love/hate relationship with churches.  I feel like I get more out of a small group meeting in my home than I do the church building anymore.

[Charles Miles]

I go to a small Presbyterian church but grew up Southern Baptist.  Church for me had always been a "place" to come on Sunday to sit and listen, but now things have changed a lot.  The study, prayer, and most all things having to do with my relationship with the Lord happen during the week and church on Sunday is more of a celebration for those who love Jesus and want to worship together as a group.  We have "dinneres of 8" monthly so we all can socialize as families together and build relationships within the Body.  I do dearly enjoy these dinners and all the things that come out of them. 

 

Maybe the thing you miss is a relationship with the other believers on a more personal level.  That is an important thing and should be sought by christians everywhere.  We need a group with which we worship that understands just who we are and what is happening in our lives, but many people are so private as to not want this kind of fellowship. Our dinneres seek to do just that by having 4 couples meet and have dinner together on a regular basis, and at the same time just fellowship about what is happening in our lives.  We do have a prayer but no formal sermon or religious material to discuss as a rule.  The discussion may get into Biblical topics but nothing is planned beyond just getting to know others closely.  The membership in the 8 will change every 3-4 months just so we can meet and know others.  I find this to be a very precious type of christian fellowship.  Those of us old enough to have gone through trials and deep valleys know that when one is in one of these severe deep problems is no time to start looking for close christian freinds with whom to form a prayer group.  Close relationships with careing christian friends who know all about who you are....well, they can save your life.

 

Church?  Yes, church is fine.  Close relationship with christian brothers and sisters who know each other really well and love each other....well that is why we as christians need to worship together and love one another.  Times can get rough, and always has, but we can support one another in love just as Jesus told us to.

 

Jesus loves me this I know, because the Bible tells me so...

 

Charlie

[elizabethcog]

Dear Charlie ,

[elizabethcog]

Again Dear Charles, not sure what happened with that post??? I am a little challenged with this computer LOL I just wanted to say thank you for all your words which always seem sweet  and caring and most importantly real and spirit filled,I am always encouraged by your honesty and the sense of genuine love, there are many others of course but when I have read your sharing thoughts  they are among my favorite bread for this body... love in christ to all

[radar]

After serious prayer and fasting, I had to change fellowships. We have forgotten our first love. I was asked to preach at our church, and I was given to go to Revelation two warning of remembering our first love. I was then told later I would not be speaking again and I was stripped of my teaching position at the Camp ministry where we have a 90 day drug and alcohol program for men. I am not allowed on the grounds. Since we lost our shepherd last summer due to an accident, we have a woman that runs the church like a worldly CEO business, and conducts secret meetings where anyone who wants to reprove citing biblical authority cannot go to two or more witnesses or the church due to the "gossip" card being played. At these various meetings which are not corporate but instead chosen cliques, the ministry is manipulated and the various cliques are given a "gag" order that whoever breaks the secrecy will be mark for division and avoided. The other elders are passive and will not speak out for the truth. This is what happened at my next to last Sunday visit. It was given to the body for a lack of love shown. It was posted to Facebook.

 

""Angelic Visitation

Hello, My name is David. I went to your fellowship to worship yesterday for the first time. I had heard many good things about the works that you have done for God, and that He is among you. I am desperately seeking the love and companionship of other peoples of God. I was hoping I could find it with you. I came in and sat in my seat. I was afraid, a stranger in a new place. I was uncomfortable, but God told me to fear not, I was in His sanctuary and with His people. I sat there waiting. I noticed one who went around and personally greeted everyone who was there. He told me his name and how happy he was to see me and welcomed me back. I could see the sincerity in his eyes and felt the warmth of his love.

I also noticed small groups of people talking amongst themselves. There were a few of these small gatherings all around. I thought, surely someone else would come and welcome me. I was a bit disappointed when it did not happen. I saw the pastor busily getting himself ready for the service, adjusting his microphone, walking to and fro around the sanctuary. I was sure he was going to come and welcome me into his flock. But I was passed by. I saw the praise and worship team praying together and was thinking shouldn't we all be praying together in one accord that God would find all our worship acceptable unto Him...Then the praise and worship began. The local people were playing instruments and singing praises to the Lord. The congregation just stood there, some mechanically going through a ritualistic motion. I also noticed that the one who greeted me was so full of the Spirit he jumped up out of his seat and like King David ( 2 Sam 6:14-16) unabashedly went forward, even right up to the speakers and was singing with the joy of the Lord his highest praise. The praise and worship team was encouraged and a fresh fire emerged from the songs. Then the worship songs turned solemn and I saw this person praying earnestly, publicly at the altar of God. He was so fervently impassioned with prayer that I wondered what was upsetting him so. At the end of the worship he turned around to the congregation and made an earnest plea for mens souls to be saved from eternal damnation. I saw that it went mostly unnoticed from those who were there. It saddened me not to see anyone exhorting and encouraging in agreement.

The pastor then delivered a fine sermon. He was well prepared, and it was shown that he had been in prayer with God to speak to the people the things that God wanted them to hear. I was encouraged by this, and received what he said with joy. After the sermon a dear lady got up and gave a testimony with tears in her eyes giving God glory for His provision as she had a bill she could not pay and didn't know where the money was going to come from. She also related how her prayers were answered when a check came in the mail to cover the bill. I was thrilled to hear about the goodness of God.

Then another person got the pastor's attention and wanted to share what God had laid in his heart. This was the person that greeted me, this was the person who really worshiped God unashamedly. This was the person who made an impassioned plea for souls to be saved. He was a peculiar man unto God. I waited to see what he was going to share. It never happened. The pastor carelessly told him to make it quick. The man immediately got up and left the church. It seemed whatever this fellow had to say, it was not worthy of the time nor was there any love evidenced that anyone would bear with him. Did he have a word of encouragement, exhortation, or a word of rebuke or correction, was he going to give God glory for the things that He had done in this man's life? I will never know. The Spirit was quenched, and it appeared that the older gentleman was despised. I heard the word "ICABOD!" in my spirit. I was confused by these things. I sadly left that day. I don't know if I will return. The only one who had made me feel truly welcome and was clearly filled with the spirit and love of God was disrespected. That could happen to me! I came needing love and help from God, and thought that I was in the right place. Now I am not so sure I want to go there again, or would able to share my burden for fear I would too be marginalized. I heard in my spirit the warning that on that day of Judgement, that every idle word spoken by men that they would give an account for. I prayed that this would be forgiven of them. I sadly went on to my home.

"Don't neglect to show hospitality, for by doing this some have welcomed angels as guests without knowing it."
Hebrews 13:2""

 

The next Sunday I announced at the conclusion of the service that I could not with a clear conscience continue in the fellowship. The service was forty five minutes which consisted of this woman going on about how her and her family has been personally attacked and that we were shutting down our ministry headquarters and moving to the the rehab camp under a tent for Sunday service.  She went on about why she did not know why people were leaving the fellowship or why the church had lost much of the financial support. The the pep rally began. The pastor then said at the conclusion that we needed to love and no word was given at the service.

 

The complete break with the ministry came when after I had been "excommunicated"  for speaking the truth in love, God asked me if they still wanted my contribution for the Homeless ministry to continue. This was all said via third party proxies. I believe the reason it was third party was that God wanted to expose in the open the primary motives of our leadership. They indicated they wanted the money. So, I paid for one more month, and then turned wrote a letter that I was leaving the ministry completely and gave the receipt for the rental of the homeless ministry. It was evident that they wanted the money but was rejecting the person. I then went to another fellowship and had found that the others that had left were attending there! I was loving welcomed by all that were there and it was an awesome time of worship, the word and the Holy Spirit. I had not corporately felt the Spirit in a long time. I was rejuvenating and refreshing.

 

You will always have problems in fellowships because the Accuser of the Brethren is on the job. A  Biblically sound and mature fellowship does much to help one navigate the Satanic snares when you truly are following Christ's commandments of love. If you are not experiencing the fruit of the spirit where you are attending Christopher, I would suggest seeking God's face and His leading. It is hard to break the stronghold of moving on when we have been comfortable where we have been for years, hoping that things will get better. I still love and pray for my old fellowship and still have many friends who are there that i continue to relationships with. I had been praying that God give me an unmistakeable sign to move on because Satanic deception and strongholds will oppose you as we are not warring with our deceived brothers and sisters, but the spiritual powers that they are in bondage under. When I was "excommunicated"  from grounds that were consecrated and known as  Qodesh Adamah (Hebrew for Holy Ground). I knew then it was time to move on.  ICABOD! 

[chipped china]

Radar, I'm so grateful you are not one of the lukewarm. The world hated Jesus and it will hate us too. I pray you'll be able to use your gifts at the new fellowship.

[Meema]

I’ve held off telling my relationship with 'church’ because usually it leaves people confused and unable to respond. My testimony often ends a conversation. But after Radar’s comments, I’m going to risk it and pray that God will bless it.

First of all, I don’t recall not knowing Christ. My earliest recollection is having conversations with Jesus while I was swinging in the back yard. I couldn’t “hear” Him, of course, but I did know He spoke to me. For example, I asked Him one day, “Why am I here?” (Interesting question for a five/six year old, don’t you think?) Immediately, He responded, “You’ll know.” That’s it. That’s all He gave me. As I grew older, I’d ask the question periodically and I’d get the same response. I always assumed it meant I had a calling of some kind. Over time I came to understand it was more about Him than me. More about not losing focus and growing in my daily walk with Him, rather than some future spectacular mandate.

When I was nine, (1957) my country born, high school educated mother had an end days vision that changed our lives. She thought what she had seen was imminent and told our Baptist pastor who then suggested to my father that she needed psychiatric evaluation. We left the church. Though I have attended many since, I never joined another. All these years I have been in a type of wilderness, not exposed to and untrained by manmade doctrine. My intimate relationship with Christ is completely about Him and me desiring to serve Him. I began reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and then start over again at age nine so I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read it completely through. As I have matured and was ready for understanding, each reading has opened more truth and is ongoing. I could never deny Christ or what I know. Amazingly, I never needed church to define Christ for me either. It’s all there in the Bible and when your heart is open, your spirit can easily be filled.

Fast forwarding to now, the things my mother saw in her life-altering vision in the middle of the night, fifty-seven years ago are coming true. Imagine, in 1957 knowing that one day every move you make would be monitored by technology that had not yet been invented. We had a party line (if you know what that is) and yet I grew up knowing that one day every thing we say on the phone would be listened to and recorded.

I grew up isolated from religion but not life. I’ve had a full life, marriage, children, grandchildren. I raised my children to be God-fearing without help from religion or church. God made me curious and led me to learn all manner of skills to be used for His purpose. I was held out from modern apostate religion for a reason and I have always accepted that this made me different and I’ve had to deal with being rejected and misunderstood. 

After all these decades the most valuable thing I have learned, besides the pure Gospel without the bondage of dogma, was how to write clearly. So now I write about Him and this era of the last call. In the pre-internet years I believed there were more like me and hoped I could find them someday. Now, I know for sure there are many. I am not all that unique but nevertheless, the isolation remains. There is no call to become a religion of non-religionists. This is the biggest mistake men make, thinking they must form a group to advance their like-mindedness and it is the foundation of most religions - not the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. 

If I could sum up what I know about modern ‘church’ as succinctly as possible, I’d say this: Jesus did not come to establish a new religion. He came to fulfill the old one and set in place a Way of life. The Way, as first century followers were referred to, is all about the gospel, without the man-made doctrines that, interestingly enough, began early on, even before the second Temple was destroyed. 

What we need is not a new thing, or a revived thing. We need the original thing, the clear, simple, Christ-centered, Holy Spirit guided Way of living - every day, not just on Sundays and Wednesday nights.

 

When He comes again, what will He find that His ‘Church’ has become? The Third Temple is spiritual, not a building made with hands of man. Church is something you build in your heart. How you exhibit your faith, day to day, minute to minute, reveals the ‘church’ you belong to.


This is what David Wilkerson had to say about “Church”

 

There is one complaint I hear consistently from Christians all over the world: “I can't find a good church anywhere! I need a place where my family can be ministered to—where we can hear a true word from heaven, and where my children can grow up knowing true righteousness. But I just can’t find that kind of church!”

If you are having trouble finding a good church, I have both good news and bad news for you. First, the bad news: You’ll never find the right church—the righteous, God-blessed church—until you start looking for it in the right place.

Now, here’s the good news: God clearly shows us in His Word where to find this holy, blessed church. In fact, I hope to show you specifically where you can go to find it.

The prophet Jeremiah found the right church “while he was yet shut up in the court of the prison” (Jeremiah 33:1). While the godly prophet Jeremiah sat in prison, Jerusalem, which represented the center of worship for the Old Testament Church, lay in ruin. At one time it was a hallowed place—filled with the glory of God—and was served by holy prophets and sanctified priests.

But Jerusalem became full of sickness and death, peopled by false prophets and the spiritually dead. Had you been one of the holy remnant at that time, you would not have been able to find a single righteous house of worship or even a godly shepherd. Everything once holy and blessed had been brought to devastation.

As Jeremiah looked upon this awful scene, his heart was crushed. He became so focused on the ruin around him that he lost sight of God’s covenant promises to His people. He could have continued in despair, wasting his days brooding and sinking further into hopelessness. He might have thought, “It’s no use; God has hidden His face from us. There is no true house of worship left!”

But suddenly, the Lord spoke to the prophet, saying, “Get on your knees, Jeremiah! Set your heart to pray to Me. You believe there is nothing left of My Church but I’m going to show you the mighty things I have planned for My people” (see 33:3).

If Christians today want to find the right church, they must begin with prayer! No one is ever going to find God’s true Church by jumping on a bus, train or plane and racing around the world in search of it. We simply can’t get to His Church by any modern conveyance. The only reliable map is our secret closet of prayer!

For Him,

Meema

[Kevin Blankenship]

Radar, ........WOW!!!..... I just read your post and must say that the same story can be said around here. Problem is, around here, the only churches that  make you feel fairly welcome have some doctrinal distinctives that are un-biblical:  They are non-Trinitarian.

  That distinctive is a big thing to me. If they miss the Biblical teaching of a Triune Godhead......there must be other areas where their creed breaks down.

    The church that I presently attend is going through the motions: in one hour.  I pray hard about the candlestick being removed in the churches of my area. It grieves me.   I crave Spiritual fellowship, but none can be found unless I find it in a few select individuals. I invite them to my house and we talk and talk. About Jesus and about living the Christian life. One of the gentleman that comes down is really a fireball for Jesus. He is the one that gave me the copy of the book "God Calling".  He also made me repreat the "sinner's prayer" with him while he was at my home.  Several times already I have asked him what prompted him to lead me in the sinner's prayer.  He laughs it off. I concluded that I MUST put off VIBES of an un-saved person.  It was VERY confusing. 

    He is the one who had invited me to go and worship with him at Cornerstone. He says: "Ohhhhhh, I felt the Spirit in the service today!!"  I asked him what part of the service, because I must have missed it. He told me that when so and so was singing his Special, that the Spirit really fell.  I was there. People were clapping heartily for the man who sang the Special. He did a good job with the song. I suppose that THIS is what Lonnie was talking about.........when the Spirit fell.  And too, the singer was crying halfway through the song.

     There is a revival starting today at this church with a well known Evangelist coming in and preaching,  He is noted in the Southern Baptist circles for his ability to pastor small congregations and make them large congregations. I have heard him preach. He is very good and very persuasive. I will go to the revival services.

    I just have this sinking feeling that America is under some kind of judgement from God for our attitude of "being rich and increased with goods......but really, we are poor, blind and naked." 

    As Billy Graham said one time: "If God excuses America, He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."  Or something to that effect.

[Charles Miles]

I grew up in the Mississippi Delta, poor as a church mouse, got a scholarship to Ole Miss, finished there, went to med school, then residency, then into the Navy, then back home to set up a practice.  I say this to say that I have been to and worshipped at quite a few churches in my life.  Now, I found some that were preaching and teaching close to my belief, and some who were "way out there", but until I experienced  a personal meeting with the Lord, I didn`t understand a lot about what was supposed to happen except I always expected a boring sermon and I ALWAYS expected an air conditioned church! After coming face to face with my Lord, I don`t look at church the same......not even close.  I grew up Baptist and now attend a Presbyterian church,...but I(like meema) am not religious.  Religion being man`s attempt to reach up to God and reason with Him...just will not work.  What am I?  Well, I am a born again child of the living God of the universe, a member of His family, an heir with Jesus, I know He loves me even when I fail...and I do.  Now, this means I can and do worship  with several congregations, denomniations, and churches, without a problem...you see, I know who I am and whose I am.  If the congregation with whom I meet on a given Sunday is racked by gossip, deception, false teaching, or any of the stuff mentioned above, then I just quietly move out and go to another worship service. Any church with all that stuff going on in it is certainly NOT part of the body of Christ.  If love is not manifest, if the gospel is not preached, or if the room feels "cold" with no worshipful air....then there is something wrong!  If you are filled with Holy Spirit, then ask Him about what to do.  You just may have been sent there!  Holy Spirit may have left that congregation long ago, but you may be the one to show up with Him, or maybe He shows up with you.  Anyway, if you show up in a "dead" church with Holy Spirit, you will stick out like a sore thumb and people will do one of two things...1. Not speak and "shun" you.  or 2.  Come over and ask what you have that the others do not.

 

Many "dead" churches who lost Holy Spirit and don`t even know it need to invite Him back.  It is only a matter of repenting, asking God to forgive whaever cause the separation, and inviting Holy Spirit to return and take charge of HIS CHURCH.  Hey, it is not OUR church....it belongs to Jesus...lock stock and barrel.  Holy Spirit prepares the Church bride for the Son....but He must be asked.

 

Anyway, when a church becomes "cold" or we find one "cold", maybe we need to search ourselves.  See if we have the love of God in us, see if we can forgive slights, insults, rude behavior, and all those things we have done to others in the past.  Maybe, just maybe we occasionally still do some of that same stuff ourselves....oh no, none of us would ever do anything like that.  Wanna bet?

 

Lord, search me and find any unrighteousness, lack of love, any unforgiveness, or any beam in my eye,

 

Charlie

[chipped china]

I remember sitting with my brother in law talking about Jesus. After we were done I thanked him for having church with me.
Being part of an organized church for many years, he got a puzzled look on his face. For me that's what I call church.
Anywhere two or more are gathered in my Name.

I don't like a structured service, I don't like the structured laity. I don't have a problem with elders, in fact I usually know right away who is my teacher and who I can help teach, with whom we can learn together. The congregation are my neighbors, family,friends and people God puts in my path. I give monthly gifts and when the Lord asks me to give to someone specifically. I do like a weekly bible study.

[Candice]

WeI don't believe that the church needs to entertain me or meet my family's needs in the extended sense beyond fellowship and corporate worship.  If I had a need that was great, I doubt that I would go to a church to have it met.  I enjoy sermons, but can just listen online.

 

I suppose I believe we are not to forsake the gathering and I want to keep that commandment or exhortation because when you isolate too much, you are at risk of spiritual attack of the enemy.  I mostly feel comfortable in small group bible studies.  I want only the word preached and not opinion as "we are to make converts to Christ, not our opinions" as Oswald Chambers so eloquently stated.  I guess I want to talk to folks after church, before church or elsewhere about the Lord and the word, etc.  However, I find this to be shallow for the most part. 

 

I went to a Good Friday service last night at a theatre where about eight churches were represented by their pastors who gave brief sermons and s some soloist singing.  No one read from the bible.  Figures.  It was a fine night with communion being my own desire.  I noticed that every time a pastor got up to talk or someone sang a song, the person's name was up on the screen.  I wondered why people need recognition?  Could they not lead worship and sort of disappear as everyone sang. 

 

We are between churches right now, and that is not a good feeling to me.  I feel like I have no anchor.  My husband likes the seeker-sensitive church but the word isn't preached.  Just Purpose Driven stuff.  The church we were in for five years is just cold and as my husband says, you could die and be buried, and no one would know.  No one cares.  I suppose I like home church, but none to be found.  I believe many home churches tend to be a bit cultish. We have a couple of them in town.  I don't know.  All in all, I agree and appreciate all the former posts here.  I can agree with much that's expressed in each.

[radar]

Radar, I'm so grateful you are not one of the lukewarm. The world hated Jesus and it will hate us too. I pray you'll be able to use your gifts at the new fellowship.

Thanks chipped china for the kind words. King David says it best in Psalms 41-9 "For why the man of my peace, in whom I hoped, he that ate my loaves; made great deceit on me. (For my friend, in whom I trusted, he who ate my bread; brought forth great deceptions, or lies, against me.) ". It was the direction it came from,  My church if you will. I guess if you were a bench warmer for fifteen years, and finally got it, and decided by to start obeying The Lord, you will have trouble as the Accuser of the Brethren is doing a fine job of stealing, killing, and destroying Christians.

 

I have went through the progressions of learning how to love when the world hates us, our friends hate us, then our vulnerability becomes clear, when we realize that our families hate us too.

 

I was never ready for an inside job as I got in a comfort  zone for all those years.

 

As far as my gifts,I hope your right. Easter Sunday my ex-wife, who had came from out of state to help me move, my daughter and granddaughter went to my new fellowship. All three of my relatives had not regularly attended church for years, and they were not bearing the fruit of salvation. Praise and worship started and we went into the sanctuary. I saw my daughter and granddaughter talking to a lady, who I thought was from the children's ministry. The the girls disappeared, and I thought no more of it. After a few songs, the ex-wife stepped out to check on the girls. After praise and worship, I went looking for my family. They were seated in the coffee shop by the live stream. I asked them why they were sitting there and not with me in the sanctuary. They told me that my granddaughter would not be able to sit with us in the service. I asked my daughter why she didn't come and tell me. She said they would not let her in and my granddaughter would not stay with a stranger. I asked my daughter if she asked them to send me a message letting me know what was going on. she told me that did not happen.  I thought, that can't be right, so I brought them in myself. We were stopped by the same lady that my daughter was talking to before. The lady was telling my daughter that she could take my granddaughter to the children's church, or she could sit with her in the "family" room and watch the live stream. My daughter tried to say something but she was cut  off mid sentence by this lady on insisted on going with the two options. I said something and I was rudely cut off mid-sentence, so I explained how rude it was to not to listen to our concerns but continue on with her agenda. By this time my family members were walking out the door of the church. I followed them out and one of the associate pastor's stopped me just outside the entrance door and started asking what was going on. I told him that we were not being allowed to worship together as a family. I also told him my granddaughter is almost 6 years old, and had been raised in an abusive environment, and would feel more comfortable with us and that upon subsequent visits, she would come to feel more comfortable and would probably enjoy their children's ministry then. The pastor said that the cut off age is fifth grade for sanctuary worship and would I "sacrifice" by sitting with my family watching via live stream in the family room. I told him that I could watch the live stream at home on the internet, and that we came to corporately worship together. We wanted to teach our granddaughter worship by example, and teach her to respect the house of God. The pastor mumbled something about in the old testament temple worship, the children worshiped apart from the adults in Jewish tradition. By this time my family members were at the car waiting for me. I tried to leave and the pastor told me if I prayed right there with him, they would come back and we could go to the family room. I was in a bit of a bind. I could stay for the rest of the Easter message (or as they referred to it "Resurrection Day" instead of Easter)  or I could honor my family members God given freewill choice and minimize the damage and take them home. So I attempted to leave. The pastor was insisting I stay. I told him we were all called to live in peace and that I would prefer to leave in peace. He prayed with me and I left. I was bummed out! I apologized to my family as they were relating that real Christians would not do that. I had to sadly agree. The unsaved family, like the world, knows the high standards true Christians aspire to and when a situation like this happens, it turns them off of Christianity.

 

I wrote the head pastor an email 3 days later. I wanted to pray, and use the cooling off time before I wrote him. I explained the situation, told him I could not find a reference of the children's temple worship being separate from the adults, and asked him to show me a biblical or accurate historic source to educate me. I also told him that the only reference I could find on their website stating anything about the rules of children in the sanctuary, was a reference that said the children were "encouraged" to attend the children's ministry. I also lamented the fact that my loved ones, who I constantly pray for salvation, had missed an opportunity to hear the Word and respond. I also told him that my son and his family, who live out of state, would not go along with sending my granddaughter to the children's ministry as his fellowship allow children to worship and listen to the Word with their families. The pastor answered back  the following:

 

 "Hello Chris, I am sorry to hear that the visit with your family did not go well. I will be praying for your family and also pray we will have another opportunity to love on them. In regards to our children's ministry, we do ask that children 5th grade and under attend our children's ministry. We do understand that this can be difficult, but have seen great fruit in regards to it. The main reason for this is the length of service and sometimes the subject matter spoken about.There may be a few children who can handle the long teaching time but most will not and will be a distraction to their parents, therefore causing frustration and even a closed ear to the message that can change their eternity. There have been many cases where parents were initially upset and then came immediately after the service to thank us because they were able to truly listen to the message and respond at the altar. On the flip side, this also allows us to minister to the children in a way that they are able to grasp the Gospel and embrace the love of Christ. We are not keeping the children from Christ, but rather we are making Him more accessible through a ministry that is created specifically for them (1 Cor 9:22). For instance, a couple weeks ago we had a 4th grade girl come sheepishly into the children's ministry area. Her parents were reluctant but they watched as a group of girls quickly engaged her in fun conversation and within moments she ended up worshiping the Lord with her new friends and now loves to come to church. This is a common testimony throughout our children's ministry. Again, I understand that this can be a hard issue. This is why we offer the family room where parents and children can enjoy the worship and teaching together without the potential of distracting many others from hearing the Gospel. This is a great starting point for those who are not sure about our children's ministry. Just so you know, we do background checks on all our children's ministry servants and have cameras in children's ministry for added security. The lessons in CM are based off the teaching in the main sanctuary for that parents and children can discuss similar topics. We also use videos, skits, games and other elements to help drive the Bible home. As I mentioned before, I am praying for you and your family. I pray that this secondary issue is not one that will cause division. I know it may be different than some churches but the intent is to see parents and children to both grow strong in the Lord. We love you all and desire to be a blessing. If you have questions you can let me know or contact pastor Mike ..."

 

I understand the reasons and they are valid ones as far as distractions and subject material go. I did not get an answer about the temple worship. I did not get a reply in relation to the lady that was rude. The only thing that comes close to the missed salvation opportunity was a "another opportunity to love on them again.", nothing about an opportunity for salvation.  I know that the pastor is responsible unto God for the responsibility of the flock, and what ever he decides as far as rules are well within his authority to do so.

Since no church is perfect, I will stay and look for good fruit. I am afraid as John Albert, DonnaA, Meema (thanks for the kind words), Kevin and chipped china have observed, I am at a place that is liberal and PC with an emphasis on glitter, on poping open a soda or even grab a coffee at the "shop" in the lobby while the word is being taught. That seems more of a distraction than children being bored. If I was a distraction to the service as a child, I would quickly be taken out of the sanctuary and promptly corrected.

 

Kevin, I like your question about the man who never gave you an answer about the salvation prayer. It set you up for the fiery dart from Satan to get you to think that you were putting out "bad vibes" when in fact there is a spiritual division between what you experience and what the man experienced. Your fruit from the time I have known you indicates the Holy Spirit in you is not in agreement with this man's experience. Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so? (Amos 3:3).

 

I know lately I have been long winded, and tend to over analyze situations. I want to thank each and everyone of you who share my burdens as I hope in some small way I have also listened with you. I know one reason that others come here is because they don't get any compassion at the churches they have been attending. Sometimes a person just needs someone to listen to them.

 

Shalom & simcha!,

Chris

[Meema]

This is going to be hard for me to say because I know that the call has changed from “come ye out” to “get it or don’t”, and that’s a tough statement that most don’t want to hear. The desire for fellowship and edification is deeply embedded in the spirit and the attraction to whatever presents itself with all the right language, pulls like a siren’s call. Come worship, come be filled, come find your eternal life, it whispers soothingly.

 

But what if...?

 

What if all the right words are just words that, in truth, rise like a stench to Heaven? What if the organizations of religion have nothing to do with the real gospel, the original truth? What if those who keep trying to find a home for their religion invest so much time looking for the building they miss the Builder? 

 

I am tired. I’ve lived in the wilderness more than fifty years. I’ve shared my experience, I’ve offered, by example, that a relationship with Christ does not require a building, a business, a set of inflexible policies, by-laws and a board of directors. I’ve said this more times than I can count and I might as well be screaming in space. People want to be herded and call it worship. People want a flesh and blood leader to believe in. People don’t really believe that the Holy Spirit can do a work in an open heart with or without an organization behind it so they prefer to trust a system. 

 

What I have learned is that Remnant is a much smaller number than most can grasp the significance of. How far away from the original thing we have come. If Christ came today, what would He have to say about the condition of His Church? If one were to ask Him, “Lord, which church is right?” I think He would respond, “If ye can ask that, ye do not know Me.”

 

 

I’m going to share this excerpt from Chip Brogden from his book Church in the Wilderness for a witness. I'm sorry to have to say, "Get it or don’t." Time is short.

 

For Him,

Meema

 

 

***

 

Throughout history, God has continually called out a people, a remnant that will represent His heart and mind in the midst of universal deception and decay. To answer this calling, God’s people have always been asked to leave where they are and travel through an unfamiliar, lonely place – a wilderness – in order to reach the place He has prepared for them.

 

This happened twice in the history of Israel, and it has happened twice in the history of Christianity. By looking back on how God has called His people out in times past, we can better see and appreciate the significance of the final exodus that is taking place at this time.

 

[Meema]

Israel’s First Exodus: God Called the Hebrews Out of Egypt

 

We have already seen that Moses established a “church in the wilderness” by leading the Hebrews out of Egypt and into the Promised Land by way of the desert of Sinai. This exodus is recorded in our Bibles, not just for its historical significance, but for us to learn by: “With most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us…” (1 Cor. 10:5,6). We see how they were tested in the wilderness, and how they failed many of the tests, and failed to enter into the Promised Land because of doubt and fear. We also see how many of them were tempted to go back to Egypt.

 

All these things are recorded so that we will recognize this tendency in ourselves today and not make the same mistakes they made. So this first exodus establishes the spiritual principle of God calling His people out and is the key that unlocks our understanding of how God goes about the difficult work of calling and setting apart a chosen people for Himself.

 

Israel’s Second Exodus: God Called the Jews Out of Babylon

 

Once the nation of Israel was established in the Promised Land, they began a slow and steady moral and spiritual decline, occasionally punctuated with godly kings and periods of repentance and revival. But eventually the wickedness of the nation called for judgment, and this judgment came in the form of Nebuchadnezzar, who conquered Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, killed most of the people, and took the remainder as captives with him to Babylon, where they lived in exile for 70 years.

 

After that, the Lord once again called them to come out – to leave Babylon, journey back through the wilderness to Jerusalem, and rebuild their Temple and their city. The significant thing about this is that most of the Jews stayed in Babylon. Out of an estimated Jewish population of greater than one million people living in exile, only 42,000 returned. The vast majority preferred the comfortable bondage of Babylon to the uncomfortable, uncertain future of rebuilding their nation. The significance of this is extraordinary. Just as the young nation wanted to return to Egypt, the nation in exile wanted to remain in Babylon.

So we have two exoduses in the history of Israel that provide us with spiritual discernment into what follows after.  Let us now turn to the two exoduses in the history of the Ekklesia.

 

Our First Exodus: God Called the Christians Out of Judaism

 

A remnant of Jews did return from Babylon. They rebuilt the Temple and inhabited Jerusalem once again. Having paid the terrible price of their idolatry, they resolved to never disobey God again. But in their zeal they went to the opposite extreme of fanaticism. What eventually developed was a religious system and a hypocritical priesthood obsessed with outward appearances and obedience to the letter of the Law while overlooking mercy, grace, righteousness, faith, and love.

 

Into this atmosphere our Savior was sent, just as Moses was sent to Pharaoh with a mandate to bring God’s people out of bondage and into the Promised Land. And, just as Pharaoh resisted Moses, so the religious leaders resisted Jesus. Undaunted, Jesus promised another “church in the wilderness” that would stand forever, and charged His disciples to take this message to “all nations” and “to the uttermost parts of the earth.”

 

Even with this clear direction, it would take many years for the truth to sink in: faith in Christ was not compatible with Judaism. Peter struggled with preaching Christ to the Gentiles and was rebuked publicly by Paul. James, based in Jerusalem, tried in vain to make Christianity fit in better with Jewish ideology. But once the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles, it marked the beginning of something new. The Way, as it was then called, was no longer a mere sect within Judaism. The Gentiles heard the message, and thanks to Paul, understood that faith in Christ has nothing to do with obeying the Law of Moses.

 

Now followers of Jesus were forced to make a decision. Were they going to “come out of Judaism” and be “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a set-apart people” distinct from Judaism, or, would they cling to their Jewish traditions and the teachings of their elders, all of whom rejected Jesus as the Messiah?

 

The letter to the Hebrews was written to Jews struggling with that very dilemma. After demonstrating conclusively that you cannot enjoy the benefits of the New Covenant while clinging to elements of the Old Covenant, the author concludes:

 

“We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin, are burned outside the camp. So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through His own blood. Therefore let us go to Him outside the camp and bear the reproach He endured” (Heb. 13:10-13).

 

Once again, when offered a choice between comfortable bondage and uncomfortable freedom, we find many chose to stay “within the camp.” They were known as the Ebionites – Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah but insisted on obedience to the Jewish laws and customs in order to be saved. Of course, they also rejected Paul as a genuine apostle. This group flourished within Jerusalem until it was destroyed by Titus in A.D. 70., after which they established themselves in Pella. They persisted for some time, but by the fourth or fifth century they were no longer in existence.

 

Our Second Exodus: God Calls the Remnant Out of “Churchianity”

 

By that time, the followers of Jesus were recognized as something springing out of, but totally different from, Judaism. For about 300 years the followers of Jesus practiced their faith in simplicity and in obedience to the teaching of the Holy Spirit, even when enduring fierce persecution from the Romans and the Jews. Eventually, Rome accepted Christianity and made it their state religion. Masses of “converts” poured in. Pagan temples were converted into “Christian” churches, and more church buildings were constructed. An elaborate hierarchy of bishops was established and a religious system was organized that soon exceeded the Jewish religion, both in numbers of adherents and in material wealth. Christianity became institutionalized into three main sects: Catholicism, Orthodox, and Protestantism. Out of Protestantism, Christianity was further splintered into thousands of denominations.

 

So we see that Israel’s history has repeated itself in the history of Christianity. Just as God called the Hebrews out of Egypt to form a new nation, so God called the early Christians out of Judaism to form a “new nation” of kings and priests. When Israel rebelled against God and committed idolatry, they were led away to Babylon for judgment. In like manner, when Christendom rebelled against God and created an idolatrous system of worship “in Jesus’ name,” they were also brought to judgment; the chief difference being that God did not send them away – He simply gave them over to their own devices, and they were quite content to proceed under the assumption that God was endorsing and blessing the works of their hands.

 

This brings us to the present time. Just as God called out a remnant of Jews to leave Babylon and journey to Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple, God has in these last days called out a remnant of Christians to leave “Churchianity” and take a journey through the wilderness. What is He bringing them to? Not to a temple made with hands, but to a house of living stones. Not to the Jerusalem that is below, but to the Jerusalem that is above: the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly City, whose builder and maker is God. It is a “Church in the Wilderness” – not a building, but a body of people in transition between the religious system and the spiritual fulfillment of God’s original intention for the Ekklesia.

[Kevin Blankenship]

Woe Chris, I just read your post.  That must be a BIG church. We don't have any big churches around here. "Mega-churches?".  But maybe it isn't a big church.  My point is, out of all of the churches I have went to  around here, noe of them have that policy about "5th grade and lower: worship elsewhere".

   There was another 'phrase" that many churches use now that simply bugs the stew out of me. When they say something like: Just come and let us "love on you".  What, exactly, does that mean? (I'm now just expressing a general question to all).

  I was told by a church member from another church to: "Just come on and visit us next Sunday and let us "love on you".  That phrase gave me the serious heebie jeebies.  I don't like it.  I know that they mean absolutely nothing by it. (Because I went......I just wanted to know what it felt like to be "loved on") and absolutely nothing happened. I think that three folks came and shook my hand. One handed me a bulletin. I sat down.  We went through normal protocal:  A few choruses. Offering. Special song. Maybe another chorus. Sermon (alliterated).  Alter call.  (no one responded) .  Dismissed.

  Which, by the way, is like the church that I am now a member of does it.  And after "DISMISSED" I won't see anyone from that church again until next Sunday. It has become hopeless around here. There needs to be a great awakening (or a REAL Charles Finney TYPE revival).  Every church's service is so predictable as to be like a funeral service. I start thinking of candlesticks having been removed (according to Revelations) and I FULLY realize that the church's around here are comprised of folks like me (more or less) and that I am as much at fault as anyone (I am steering off subject) for the church in my area being like they are.  I get more from reading a Tozer devotional than I do the entire service on Sunday. I'll tolerate it for a bit longer. Yet, I continue to pray fervently for a solution. Not necessarily some hidden church somewhere where everyone loves Jesus.......but I pray and ask God how I can be in a community of believers in the present situation. Personally, my soul is going through a renewed yearning for the things of God. Now, more than EVER, I could really use some fellowship (a cord of three strands is not easily broken). 

Sorry that I drifted.  Mybe I just need to be "loved on". lol (trying to joke......likely in bad taste)
 

[chipped china]

We all need to be loved on. I was listening to a Chuck Smith tape tonight and he said something that hurt yet confirmed what I believed all along. In the first 30 years of the apostles ministry they with the Holy Spirit accomplished amazing things. Ever since then the church has gone down hill. I think it all needs to be redone getting back to old days when disciples were fresh with biblical teaching being taught by the Word and the Holy Spirit. We need to bring the true sheep out of the buildings and throw away the stuff that got taught in seminary. Small groups in our own geographic locations. Then have some elders that visit us periodically to make sure we are still on the right track. Like Candice said we should spending much more time in powerful prayer communing with God and acting out on what the Holy Spirit leads us too instead of making up our own activities.

[CHRISTOPHER310]

I so love and enjoy the church I had been with the last 3 plus years. It was so many wonderful blessings to me I never had before. Family and home, faith and friends, and the list of blessings go on non-stop. But... My passion for the faith has over time, out grew the spiritual structure and limitations of this amazing church. I desire more from my faith and service. To learn, explore, do, share, grow, become more in my faith and this church simply doesn’t over the pathways for me to do these things.

However, over time and by grace, I have been blessed with a new church that does offer me all that I am looking for and so much more. All the blessings I have already been given and the pathways to my passions I am so desiring. Plus, it’s even closer to my current home.

I have been blessed by church, past and present and no doubt, future to come.

[chipped china]

I haven't been checking this post so I'm behind and it really has so much in it that I still want to respond.

Radar, thanks for letting us take a walk with you through a trial. It was like reading a short story. You handled it with more grace than I would have so I learned from you. My first reaction was the Pharisee's haven't died out, they are still alive and well.
Actually, that's my second reaction too..lol. Anyone who stands in the way of bringing my loved ones to Christ will answer for it later.

Meema, that was quite the synopsis of history. I tend to lean that direction and believe it in my heart. People stay the same and history repeats it's self. My Head is Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit I am lead. On the other hand there are people who adamantly need and love a "church" body, one that develops over years. So, to each their own. We will each one day stand before Him and give our account. Until then let's just keep lovin on each other. Ha. I do mean it though.