60 replies to this topic

[ADVRider]

Maybe what is going on overall: some of us on the forum may be gifted as teachers or in exhortation, etc. Maybe if one is posting, the goal is to teach or exhort. Then, we may not need to reply to that person who's in teaching mode cause it only frustrates that person who may want to teach and not to engage in an interchange or interaction. Some are here to share and receive wise counsel or to bounce an idea around or to be uplifted. Some don't look for that here because they just want to issue a warning or prophecy.

Maybe we need to ask Gods Spirit to know when to say something or keep quiet (just not reply). Many times I see some as simply wanting to teach. Period. Do any of us sort of sit and wait and desire the last word of our wisdom? Sometimes I do this. This is just my flesh and sin in itself; nothing more. Not telling anyone else their motives.

"To sum up, let all be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a BLESSING instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing." 1 peter 3:8-9

If I'm not a blessing by lifting someone (biblically), then I ought to be silent. "For this is precious in the sight of God. "

I'm not here as the wise teacher. No I am blind and naked. Let those who are prophesying just of it without a remark from me
I want grace. I've had enough of the rest.

You make some good points here Candice. Any online forum can get lively at times, even a Christian one, because people are often passionate in their viewpoints. But as you inferred, lots of people also ask questions here, so answers will come forth. I don't really see a problem if people are civil and respectful. It is okay to disagree. Personally, this Deeper Life sub-forum is the main one I have an interest in, unless I randomly see an interesting thread in one of the other sub-forums. But many of the topics even in this forum don't always grab me; I only write if a thought jumps out and even then, I usually will not comment if it is something I have no experience with or have little interest in discussing. With that said, it's good to see all the various viewpoints and personalities that come to the table.

[Julie Daube]

"Any online forum can get lively at times, even a Christian one, because people are often passionate in their viewpoints. But as you inferred, lots of people also ask questions here, so answers will come forth. I don't really see a problem if people are civil and respectful. It is okay to disagree."

Well said, John. I've been involved in some very lively online discussions, and I see nothing wrong with disagreeing as long as the dialogue remains civil and polite. In a Christian context especially, I see this as "iron sharpening iron" (Proverbs 27:17).

That being said, I appreciate Candice's reminder to be a blessing as we interact in these forums. The verse from 1 Peter is one of my favorites.

[Kenny]

I would like to propose a question to everyone. My question for you all is this. I am assuming that all of us beliieve that God often chastises Hiis adopted children. If not, then I would be more than willing to provide you with Scriptural support that such is the case. Therefore if God indeed does chastise, then what means does He use to accomplish the chastisement process in the life of a believer?

I would be very interested in reading what sort of answers you might have.

Don't be shy.
Think about it and post your answer

Blessings to all

[Candice]

Hi Kenny,
I've given this lots of thought tonight since I can't sleep anyway.
I do believe God disciplines/chastises us. The scripture says so.

I believe when we judge our brothers and sisters, often, as scripture says, we get judged here on earth with chastisement by being judged in the same manner. So, it's like "see how that feels! Not too good huh?" No. Not too good, and I've been on both ends of that. A pastor was preaching homeschooling constantly and saying that if we did not that there was little chance our children would be saved. This was sermon material and many experienced shame and confusion who did not do so. Including me to the point of it interfering in allowing my husband to be the authority and out of fear I fought to homeschool since I bought it. We left that church since the opi ionized sermons and not reading the Word got to us and others I'm sure.

Soon after, the pastor put all of his four young kids in public school. His wife was not doing a reasonable job of schooling them. Well, to me, that is the result of judging your brothers and sisters and not abiding by the instruction to have women submit to their own husbands. This was a form of chastisement. But, knowing this doesn't make me feel good. I feel bad since it meant so much to them that their children be saved from this ugly world. I believe homeschooling is great in most cases.

I've criticized other people's kids to just turn around and see my own kid sin! Do not judge again!
Just natural consequence God allows by His own laws of the universe.

I believe I may have lost my brother in a car accident when I was 7 years old cause I must have been being punished for something I did wrong. My mom died 2 years later. Again, I was mad at her and thought bad thoughts and hours later she was dead. All my fault - punishment again. My husband died 5 months after marriage. We'd had some adjustments to married life. I must have been under discipline. I got pregnant with my son out of sin because we did not wait to get married first. Again, all that he struggles with including suicidal thoughts and my nearly intolerable fear of losing him to suicide - Gods discipline for my disobedience. My body us literally being racked right now in the worst physical sense. I have lupus which is literally your own body fighting itself. I've been sick every day for weeks with severe GI problems that are intolerable. I think it is God disciplining me. Confessing, asking God to show me hidden sin and cleanse me. Always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Do you think I'm kidding or being a smarty pants? No; I'm not.

But, despite all the above, isn't God faithful to forgive our sins when we repent and confess? How many times did He exhort His disciples on the forgiveness they were expected to give? He does the disciplining which at the time does not feel good.

I just know the discipline thing can get out of hand for me if the devil knows the weakness of my flesh and that is all I know that I personally experience with this topic. There are other stories. Maybe I say I believe there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Overly spiritualizing discipline leads to believing in condemnation again for me. And this a never ending cycle unless I get off the merry-go-round and trust and obey. Even that takes my obedience don't you see? Uh oh - I've committed the unpardonable sin? Besides that, i think many believers like to see people feel bad and get their just desserts. Not good. Not good at all. Maybe we don't feel so alone if we see others suffer consequences? I can see why many are turned off by this type of Christianity. It's downright sadistic. I can't explain it any other way. So, for me, enough said.

Basically, I believe in natural consequences. That's just a law of the universe God created - it's entropy!

[Meema]

Kenny and Candice, dear hearts, what if I offer an alternative to picking the bones? Spiritual archeology is a process that looks at bits and pieces of what once was ever hoping to understand what is and will be. But usually it just digs up more questions than answers because, in the end, it can only speculate on the parts that are not the whole. 

 

We cannot find our own answers by comparing our experiences to those of others because we are each unique to God. I can tell you absolutely that I have more freedom than many but also more boundaries than most because of my mature personal relationship with Christ. I could create a list but all one would see is the letter not the spirit in the words–the parts not the whole.

I want to share a wonderful teaching, Peace! Be Still! by a nineteenth century Scottish minister J.C. Ryle. It is timeless and is the kind of preaching one doesn’t hear anymore. It is a 27 page pdf. Here is the download link. 

http://makinghome.com/Peace.pdf

Excerpt:

And now, reader, I have only to ask you to make a practical use of the lessons I have brought before you. You have heard this day five things.

First. That Christ’s service will not secure you against troubles.

Second. That Christ is very man as well as God.

Third. That believers may have much weakness and infirmity.

Fourth. That Christ has all power: and

Fifth. That Christ is full of patience and kind­ness towards His people. Remember these five lessons, and you will do well.

Bear with me a few moments, while I say a few words to impress the things you have been reading more deeply on your heart. This will very likely be read by some who know nothing of Christ’s service by experience, or of Christ Himself.

May you be blessed,

Meema

[Kenny]

Premise

God chastises

Therefore it naturally follows that God has means which He uses or employees for chastising.

What are the means?

[Meema]

Premise

God chastises

Therefore it naturally follows that God has means which He uses or employees for chastising.

What are the means?

Conclusion: the means is whatever you, in your personal walk, recognize as chastisement. It will not be the same for everyone. It is not a static by-law. One might lose a job, a home, good credit and realize this was the result of disobedience. Another might have the same experience only to find out it was the hidden blessing that launched a better life. 

 

Today's Havner devotional speaks to this.

 

When the Crash Comes

And there was a day…
Job 1: 13

And what a day that was! Job’s possessions and children swept away within a few hours! It was such a day as Jacob had when his sons reported Joseph slain. Such a day as came to David with the death of his beloved Absalom.

There will come such days. Very few escape them. Castles tumble. The savings of a lifetime vanish. The doctor says there is no hope.

When the crash comes Jacob may lament, “All these things are against me.” But, later, Joseph may say, “Ye thought evil…but God meant it unto good.”

The grace of God is sufficient for the disastrous day as well as for the drab day when nothing happens. Our Lord asked that His disciples be kept by the Father (John 17:11), and they were. Yet they were not spared adversity and for most of them there was violent death. He dept them and none was lost save the son of perdition. His keeping may include days when all seems to collapse. The body, even the mind, may fail. But He takes care of the real “us,” though the outward man perish.

It was an awful day for Job. But it led to his greatest day, when he saw God.

 

For Him,

Meema

[Kenny]

Now we are getting somewhere

From Meemas post I gleaned that one of the means which God uses to administer chastisement is adversity, at least according to Havner, who I have great respect for. I personally believe adversity is a means of chastisement which finds support throughout the entirety of Scripture.

The definition of adversity is as follows

Adversity
difficulties; misfortune.
"resilience in the face of adversity"
synonyms: misfortune, ill luck, bad luck, trouble, difficulty, hardship, distress, disaster, suffering, affliction, sorrow, misery, tribulation, woe, pain, trauma; etc.

I welcome any thoughts others have on this

Blessings

[Charles Miles]

Candice, meema, and Kenny, 

 

I have not commented on this thread since it was started but simply kept reading and prayerfully searching for where this would go.  Now I see a direction starting to emerge and I would like to say something. Indeed God does correct His children, because it is written that He does.  Now, exactly how He does it,  who He corrects, and what He is correcting....here we can get into dangerous realms of judgment, and none of us want to go there. Correction by God obviously can come from His use of anything He so desires and we(who are not the ones being corrected) are really, really walking on very thin ice to say that someone is having a situation because they are being corrected by God.  Things that look so obvious to us often are absolutely not what they seem.  Someone a few posts ago referenced Job, so I would ask that we consider Job`s friends, who just knew he was being punished for sins against God, and told he so.  They thought they were doing good, thought they were there to help, and could see all this punishment and just knew it was punishment from God...but they were wrong! They even convinced Job that he probably sinned against God in some way.  Job did learn a lesson, but it was not about punishment, it was a lesson on who God is.  The friends on the other hand, had to ask Job to forgive them before God forgave them.....they had incorrectly passed judgment on a situation that they did not understand at all.

My concerns in this area are kinda what meema said, ....if we have a relationship with the Father, we know when we are being corrected.  It may not be a huge public happening or even a family crisis, but maybe a small quiet voice that says..."no, that is wrong".  The only person I`m sure God does correct these days is ME!  I`m pretty sure He corrects some others also, but that is just not for me to say. When someone loses a wife, a child, or a business, home, or tragedy strikes their life, how on earth can I say that is God correcting them?  Can God use those things?  Of course He can, but am I the one to pass judgment that the situation is the chastisement of God?  Not me!  That kind of judgment is way above my paygrade and if God made Job`s friends ask forgiveness, then doing that sort of thing would seem to be a sin.  It is for me anyway.

Please forgive my intrusion into this discussion, but I simply felt lead to speak up.

 

Praise God because He is who He is,

 

Charlie

[Meema]

And if you could cobble together a working list of adversities that one might suffer for disobedience, what would you really have? Is this not the backbone of legalism, to delineate what will happen to one who disobeys the ‘do this’ list and the consequences of what will happen if one indulges in the ‘do not’ list?

 

My point is that we cannot (ought not to) define adversity in terms of consequences to Christians’ behaviors because God does not seem to define adversity as we do. Yes, it has a definition we can understand in the letter but not in the spirit. Havner’s point was that even the Apostles suffered what we might label grave adversity. Imprisonment, beatings, rejection, vilification. The First Century Christians were fed to lions for entertainment. Does that mean they were being chastised? What about the Christians in modern Syria, China, Ukraine, Africa and other non-Christian countries who are being tortured and murdered as we discuss this? Is this not adversity by any definition? 

 

Again, one man’s adversity is another man’s blessing. So, I guess I don’t understand what you desire to find at the end of this quest. Perhaps that would be a good question to ask.

 

For Him,

Meema

[Candice]

Candice, meema, and Kenny, 
 
I have not commented on this thread since it was started but simply kept reading and prayerfully searching for where this would go.  Now I see a direction starting to emerge and I would like to say something. Indeed God does correct His children, because it is written that He does.  Now, exactly how He does it,  who He corrects, and what He is correcting....here we can get into dangerous realms of judgment, and none of us want to go there. Correction by God obviously can come from His use of anything He so desires and we(who are not the ones being corrected) are really, really walking on very thin ice to say that someone is having a situation because they are being corrected by God.  Things that look so obvious to us often are absolutely not what they seem.  Someone a few posts ago referenced Job, so I would ask that we consider Job`s friends, who just knew he was being punished for sins against God, and told he so.  They thought they were doing good, thought they were there to help, and could see all this punishment and just knew it was punishment from God...but they were wrong! They even convinced Job that he probably sinned against God in some way.  Job did learn a lesson, but it was not about punishment, it was a lesson on who God is.  The friends on the other hand, had to ask Job to forgive them before God forgave them.....they had incorrectly passed judgment on a situation that they did not understand at all.
My concerns in this area are kinda what meema said, ....if we have a relationship with the Father, we know when we are being corrected.  It may not be a huge public happening or even a family crisis, but maybe a small quiet voice that says..."no, that is wrong".  The only person I`m sure God does correct these days is ME!  I`m pretty sure He corrects some others also, but that is just not for me to say. When someone loses a wife, a child, or a business, home, or tragedy strikes their life, how on earth can I say that is God correcting them?  Can God use those things?  Of course He can, but am I the one to pass judgment that the situation is the chastisement of God?  Not me!  That kind of judgment is way above my paygrade and if God made Job`s friends ask forgiveness, then doing that sort of thing would seem to be a sin.  It is for me anyway.
Please forgive my intrusion into this discussion, but I simply felt lead to speak up.
 
Praise God because He is who He is,
 
Charlie

Charlie,
You are so correct on this. My take on another's difficulties is probably always wrong, so I try not to think about this when I see someone doing something really off and see the difficulties they're enduring which APPEAR to be a result of those choices; however poor those choices seem to me. I just ought not look at it at all, but pray. That's what I do any more. I've even had a friend ask me if I think their choices over money is what has led to their current bankruptcy and is this a CURSE? I say, "no curse". That's been taken at the cross and paid for and put to death and done. I WILL NOT comment to her because I really don't know if God is chastising them. I just pray that God prospers them if He wills it. I don't know how to pray as I ought, but the Spirit intercedes here. Most times, I just pray, "Lord, I don't know what you're doing, but You do. Your will be done."

I was raised Roman Catholic so this punishment thing is ingrained. I don't believe it, but then when it happens to me, I wonder if God is mad at me. Will it ever go away? Is this just part of my correction? Like the shepherd who breaks the leg of the lamb to keep it from running off? I'd like to say I know this is it or not. Don't know, even for my own struggles. That's just the honest truth. Maybe my relationship is just not mature yet. Is that OK? Is a mustard seed enough to grow an enormous plant?

Good words here Charlie.

[Kenny]

Charles

Please take notice of all my replies in this thread. I never named a single individual nor did I judge anyone. I merely have maintained the view that we cannot ignore the fact that Scripture is clear that God indeed does chastise believers.

Meema

In my understanding of Scripture we need to discern that there is a difference between When God chastises a person verses when sinful hateful men employ injurious acts upon believers whom they dislike and won't tolerate. While God allows evil men to commit atrocious deeds, He is not the one is doing those atrocious acts. God's chastisement is to bring about correction in the believer and to draw wandering sons and daughters back to Him.

Candice

In my view God doesn't chastise us out of anger but out of love as a loving measure to correct us and polish us for heaven. Actually being chastised by God is in itself a blessing.

I could have made this a lengthy reply and posted a ton of Scripture as support, which I yet may do in a future post

I just feel this is both an interesting topic as well as one which is important for us to look into and discuss . I believe this topic would be a great Sunday School topic for discussion

Blessings ya all

Charles

Please take notice of all my replies in this thread. I never named a single individual nor did I judge anyone. I merely have maintained the view that we cannot ignore the fact that Scripture is clear that God indeed does chastise believers.

Meema

In my understanding of Scripture we need to discern that there is a difference between When God chastises a person verses when sinful hateful men employ injurious acts upon believers whom they dislike and won't tolerate. While God allows evil men to commit atrocious deeds, He is not the one is doing those atrocious acts. God's chastisement is to bring about correction in the believer and to draw wandering sons and daughters back to Him.

Candice

In my view God doesn't chastise us out of anger but out of love as a loving measure to correct us and polish us for heaven. Actually being chastised by God is in itself a blessing.

I could have made this a lengthy reply and posted a ton of Scripture as support, which I yet may do in a future post

I just feel this is both an interesting topic as well as one which is important for us to look into and discuss . I believe this topic would be a great Sunday School topic for discussion

Blessings ya all

[Meema]

In my understanding of Scripture we need to discern that there is a difference between When God chastises a person verses when sinful hateful men employ injurious acts upon believers whom they dislike and won't tolerate. While God allows evil men to commit atrocious deeds, He is not the one is doing those atrocious acts. God chastisement is to bring about correction in the believer and to draw wandering sons and daughters back to Him.

 

Yes. Agreed. But there’s still the muddy waters of trying to identify specific circumstances that can be tagged as chastisement rather than just affliction from living in a reprobate world. And my take is that we can’t, not from the outside looking in on another’s life. The best we can do is to refer to Scripture that confirms, yes, God does chasten those whom He loves. Beyond that, it’s like so many other theological issues that are impacted by the variety of every Christian’s background, experience, doctrines, and personality types, that shape their ‘Christ View’ and ultimately their personal relationship with Christ. The more fine-tuned you are, the quicker you know when you are in the doghouse and the sooner you can repent and move forward.

 

I guess some topics will always be, as I mentioned before, a circle. I think I understand what your focus is though. I have a looooong list of questions that I cannot wait to get answered. For now, I’m here as long as He deems I need to be, clueless mostly.  :P 

 

For Him,

Meema

[Julie Daube]

Wow, this has been a really stimulating discussion! I have learned so much from everyone's insights. Charlie, Candice, and Meema, each of you have touched on why I feel it can sometimes be dangerous to equate suffering with chastisement. I think we all realize that Kenny did not once name a specific individual (other than himself) or judge anyone who had experienced adversity. We all understand that he was referring to his own life and his own testimony.

 

That being said, even when we think we are being chastised/punished, we can be mistaken. Having grown up Catholic like Candice, I can relate to the constant perception of feeling like God was punishing me. It has taken decades for me to overcome that mindset. Like many in this forum, my husband and I have gone through terrible adversity over the years. I would often ask him, "Are we being punished? What did we do wrong?" It got to the point that any time something went wrong, I would ask that question. In turn, my husband would say, "Julie, do you see God as some kind of ogre who is just out to get you?" I did a lot of soul searching and realized that was exactly how I saw Him. Part of it had to do with having an earthly father who was all to eager to mete out punishment – even when I had done nothing wrong at all. I can't describe how liberating it has been to realize that my heavenly Father is nothing like my earthly father was in this regard.

 

In my own life, I have found it much more constructive to focus on who I am in Christ rather than how He might chastise or discipline me when I fail Him. Years ago, a favorite Bible study teacher said, “If we spend more time focusing on our identity in Christ, we will struggle much less with sin.” I am convinced this is true. . . when we really, really know who we are and to whom we belong, we will not want to sin; we will not want to fail Him. Obedience will flow naturally out of our understanding of who we are in Him who saved and ransomed us.

 

Kenny, I realize this may not be the kind of response you've been looking for. You seem to want us to write a list of all the possible ways God might chastise someone. While this may have helped you in your Christian walk, for me it is not a fruitful exercise. Until fairly recently, I have spent most of my life living under a cloud of fear, guilt, and condemnation. That is why I would much rather reflect upon God's unmerited favor and grace. This is not to say that I've never experienced God's correction; but when I did, it wasn't always in the form of the removal of blessings. Often it was a very gentle conviction from the Holy Spirit. Another time, it was the severing of a relationship that wasn't good for me. I was contemplating marriage with this person, which would have destroyed my life; within a month of this break-up, my future husband asked me out. This illustrates what Meema observed: sometimes an apparent adversity opens the door to a greater blessing. In this sense, chastisement will never be a curse, but something that God uses for His glory and purpose – and our ultimate benefit.

 

So Kenny, I am sorry I am unable to provide you with a list of all the means God might use to chastise someone. There are just too many variables, and it's too easy to make unfounded assumptions when we think we see chastisement taking place--even when we feel it is happening to us. I spent so much of my life thinking I was under a curse or being punished that I just can't go there anymore. I would rather spend my time meditating on His manifold blessings. To God be the glory!

 

Thanks for staring such an interesting thread and for soliciting our feedback.

 

Grace and peace,

 

Julie

[Candice]

All,

I  believe that Charlie's admonition about not looking at other's situations and judging it is for my comment about the pastor who rebuked those who did not homeschool their children, his wife homeschooled them and then they ended up putting the kids in public school.  In my flesh, I thought, "this is what happens when you judge others".  Yes, I did believe that.  But, I don't know if that's God's goal with them.  I am sorry for ever thinking that.  It did not provide sweetness in my ears.  It really doesn't.  At first, it did make me feel a bit avenged.  Not now though. Sorry.

[Kenny]

Does anyone disagree with the premise . . .

 

Premise

A. God chastises

B. Therefore it naturally follows that God has means which He uses or employees for chastising.

 

Since A is Scriptural

 

Then B naturally follows

 

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. - Hebrews 12: 5-11

[Charles Miles]

I am certainly not one to point out things in the lives of brothers/sisters that I think may be in error, because I cannot see into the heart of man, but God says He can, and that is the important thing.  Once I was involved in a scripture study that really got deep and so very meaningful, if you know what I mean.  Oh my, I was earlobe deep in the attributes of God and what He was doing with them!  Wow! I look back now and shiver because I was way over my head, but I was locked into learning all I could about the Father, who He is, and what He does.  All of a sudden a thought flashed through my mind, you know, one of those flashes of uneasiness that causes concern about the conclusions you have made from all the study and prayer.  I stopped, closed all the books and the Bible, got down beside the desk, and asked for help.  Here is what happened at that point...no audible voice, but an inner realization, a sense, a "word" for lack of anything to define what happened.  "There are many things that you are dead sure are true, you are certain, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt,........and they are WRONG!!"  I was unable to stand for a bit and I had a very hard time coming to grips with that piece of knowledge, because it shook my soul to the core.  It didn`t shake my faith because I know who was the author and it was told to me in the sweetest, most loving, manner...but it made me reevaluate my love and concern for others in a BIG way. 

 

Praise be to God for His grace and lovingkindness,

 

Charlie

[Kenny]

Charles

You said
"I am certainly not one to point out things in the lives of brothers/sisters that I think may be in error, because I cannot see into the heart of man, but God says He can, and that is the important thing"

Therefore my question for you is this
Can you point me to anyone in this thread who is pointing out things in the life of another person?

[Candice]

Does anyone disagree with the premise . . .
 
Premise

A. God chastises

B. Therefore it naturally follows that God has means which He uses or employees for chastising.
 
Since A is Scriptural
 
Then B naturally follows
 
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:[/size]

6 [/size]For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 [/size]If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 [/size]But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 [/size]Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 [/size]For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 [/size]Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. - Hebrews 12: 5-11

Kenny,

Are you an engineer by education and training?

Yes. I agree that God employs means to chastise or discipline. Yes.

However...inductive and deductive reasoning; mathematical reasoning, isn't something that I take at 100% validity.  I studied this in college and wrote papers that could "prove" the absence of God.  I see this:  the purpose of Hebrews 12 is following the previous chapter, the Hall of Famers.  NOTICE that each of these fathers/mothers of the faith had failed and had sinned. But, their sin isn't mentioned in this book.  Just their faith.  Abraham  asked Sarah to lie to tell Pharoah (twice) that she was his sister, etc. Moses murdered, blew it with God so badly he couldn't enter the promised land.  We could go on with each.  BUT, the sins and disobedience is only mentioned in the OLD TESTAMENT.  In Hebrews, this is not mentioned because it is forgotten by God in Christ - "...their sins I will remember no more".  The book is post-cross.  So, He cannot go back on His word and keep throwing up disobedience in their faces.  Their faith is what saved them and sanctified them.  Both are done through faith - even sanctification. Whatever disobedience is there is lack of faith.  But, the discipline is to bring us back to faith.

 

Probably not what you are looking for but... 

[Kenny]

Candice

You said
"discipline is to bring us back to faith."

If you read my replies again you will find that I have stated that more than once

Do you disagree with any part of the premise I posted?