11 replies to this topic

[Candice]

A friend said to me last night (paraphrasing accurately as possible): "We are held accountable to God for what church we attend; who we fellowship with. God will judge us just like them if we keep company (i.e. church, bible study, etc.) with those who don't know the Lord."

Now, she was responding to something about where we generally attend church, a biblical First Baptist Church which is independent. The pastor keeps it scriptural but definitely has evolved over the past few years from scripture to topical in his preaching and it is obvious that the whole movement is now to programs and purpose-driven flavored sermons, etc. They're on their way to pluralism; albeit subtle.

My friend said that our attending there, with people who definitely sit there on Sundays but "don't know the Lord" is basically sin on our part. I disagreed with her in that I don't know who "knows" the Lord and who doesn't. We have only a few people who even talk with us...I won't carry on with that topic any longer.

But, she insists this is scriptural. Of course, I was trying to avoid topics and questions that cause strain and arguing. So, I did not ask where her ideas came from within scriptures.

I believe my friend is harsh (generally is) and I will not ask my husband to do any changing or challenge his authority on this.

Does anyone know anything about this?
It's bad enough that the local churches are troubled, but I feel I don't need this type of rebuke unless it's really from the Lord and warranted scripturally.

Thank you all,
Candice

[Charles Miles]

Candice, I don`t think your friend will be able to support all her beliefs with scripture, and yes what she does is harsh...if not even a bit judgmental. Maybe her definition of "fellowship" is not the same as mine, but as I seem to recall, Jesus ate at and visited in houses where sinners lived. He also attended church at the temple, where there were some bad people doing some bad things. All this to say that it may not be where you worship or fellowship, but WHY you worship and fellowship where you do. We are to be the salt of the world, so why would salt be needed in a dish that already has plenty? Regarding the sermons, has anyone spoken with the pastor? Not to complain about sermon content, but just to speak with him about where one is in their walk and spiritual life. I know I speak with my pastor several times a week usually, and we have great discussions and prayer times together. I don`t know of any church that worships the Lord exactly how I would like to see him worshipped, nor do I know of any churches whose congregation is filled with every pew occupied by spirit filled saints.(would be nice to know of one, wouldn`t it?) That`s not the point, is it? The point is, why do I go and do I go for the right reason. It must be miserable to sit in a worship service and try to decide who in the room is saved and who is not! If someone is doing that, they need to re-evaluate why they themselves are there. Again, why is one there if not to worship? Do some people go to worship services just to judge the others who are there? Sad, really, really sad. Maybe we should hand out signs to everyone entering a worship service.....they could say: HERE TO WORSHIP, or HERE TO JUDGE OTHERS, or HER TO SEE IF ANYONE WILL TELL ME ABOUT JESUS, or HERE TO GIVE THANKS. Look how easy we could solve your friend`s problem and then she wouldn`t have to wonder who was on the pew with her. One more sign, if you will,......I`M HERE TO DO ANYTHING TO KEEP YOUR MIND OFF OF WORSHIP...GUESS WHO I AM. Sorry for the rant. In Christ Charlie

[Candice]

I don`t think your friend will be able to support all her beliefs with scripture, and yes what she does is harsh...if not even a bit judgmental. Maybe her definition of "fellowship" is not the same as mine, but as I seem to recall, Jesus ate at and visited in houses where sinners lived. He also attended church at the temple, where there were some bad people doing some bad things. All this to say that it may not be where you worship or fellowship, but WHY you worship and fellowship where you do. One more sign, if you will,......I`M HERE TO DO ANYTHING TO KEEP YOUR MIND OFF OF WORSHIP...GUESS WHO I AM.

Thanks Charlie for your words of wisdom, which are always wise! I suspect my friend, who also likes to tell me who has what spirit of what, is just controlling in nature. This is just another way to do that. I don't comment when she says something. I've been really avoiding her lately as the LORD has me in a place to spend my time with Him a great deal. She criticizes my husband and son constantly and tells me my faults as well. I very lovingly asked her if she believed she was being critical of others and she replied "yes", but it just goes on with it. I told her it was really off-putting as I could see others at a small home church group listening to her and I could sense their displeasure and discomfort. I accept her as she is, but enough is enough. Thanks again! I just say we ought to check our own tickets at the gate!

[Travis Richey]

I reckon there are two questions you could ask her. One would be, "So are you sinning by being with me?" And the other would be, "Or am I sinning in being with you?"

I know, not good advice at all, but it might clear the air...or the room. That, and I just couldn't help posting it.

This topic does give us all pause to reflect, as Charles states so well, on our true reasons for doing what we do, and for believing what and how we believe. I think that one of the best ways to act towards others is to follow the advice of the Apostle Paul, "Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." God's Holy Spirit well never ever lead us astray.

[Candice]

I reckon there are two questions you could ask her. One would be, "So are you sinning by being with me?" And the other would be, "Or am I sinning in being with you?"

I know, not good advice at all, but it might clear the air...or the room. That, and I just couldn't help posting it.

This topic does give us all pause to reflect, as Charles states so well, on our true reasons for doing what we do, and for believing what and how we believe. I think that one of the best ways to act towards others is to follow the advice of the Apostle Paul, "Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit." God's Holy Spirit well never ever lead us astray.

Well said Travis. A bit of sarcasm in your voice I do detect? I have been tempted to ask address her comments along your line of questioning, but I know when God's Spirit has put a strong impression on me to just be silent. There would be no convincing her. She'd just say "don't pull that on me" as she has when I've even, with the most kind and gentle tone, subtly questioned her thinking on this line in the past.

I simply go to fellowship where my husband directs on a week-by-week basis as he is led, with the motive of being obedient not to get in a habit such as to break fellowship with the larger body of Christ. Who knows who is really there in a room of 400 or so who do know the Lord intimately. This church is really not being lead by His Spirit though. I know that in my own witness and the Lord's impressions upon me.

To be honest and confessing as such, I believe this is really just me being ridiculous actually for even posting this topic because I don't think it's the Lord's priority for me. This church thing was once all too important and He has put it in its place (and me in my place) over it. Only He knows my heart and my husband's leadership in where we go to church. We go to a small home church where my friend regularly attends. But, we only go about once every month or two. Since my friend has begun a full assault on really everyone in the church - even that tiny sweet home group (albeit not perfect as none of us are) - even the sweet pastor of this small home group, my husband doesn't like going because it really has become so negative with her there. You can't avoid the elephant in the middle of a room of 15 to 20 people. This is really the way it is to be - just a holding pattern. God knows, and for now, that's where we are.

Again, thank you for taking time to encourage me!

Love, Candice

[Kevin Blankenship]

I DO NOT KNOW if the scripture I am about to share has an inkling to do with that particular situation. It just came to my mind. And n, I am not trying to be all weird and prophetic (I mean no disrespect to God's gifts) First Peter 4:17 "¹⁷ For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
I'm not taking sides. And I certainly don't know enough about that lady to endorse her 'opinion' and I'm not sure that I even understand where she's 'coming from'. I'll merely quote that scripture and let what happens.....happen.

[Charles Miles]

Kevin,

Yes, judgement will most certainly start within the Church, and maybe we are already starting to see a bit of that. But the acusations and judgements made by many are very destructive and disruptive to the Church, so much care must be taken to listen for Holy Spirit`s direction here. I have seen good, faithful, honest christians driven almost to suicide over this sort of stuff. Man, this is dangerous stuff! In Timothy there is a method of dealing with this sort of thing and an order of procedure to follow in correcting error within the body......none of which this lady follows(evidently). Most of us on this site are saved, born again, children of God who know who they are, but what about baby christians in the body who are shaky but doing their best to find their way? What effect would this lady`s remarks have upon them? Jesus said it would be better that a millstone be hung around one`s neck and then be cast into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to fall. Pretty clear message and a certainly a penalty I don`t want. I guess what I am trying to say is this....Judgement is best left to the Lord, who is the only one who actually knows what is in a person`s heart. When you have to council with someone for months and months because they have suicidal thoughts from these accusations, it becomes very clear that most things such as this are not from God. Let me also say that I do not accuse or judge this lady in any manner, just saying that she would do well to re-evaluate her own life and reasons for doing these things. Dangerous, dangerous ground that she walks, or anyone walks who has a judgemental attitude toward other members of the body.

In Christ,
Charlie

[Julie Daube]

Kevin,

Yes, judgement will most certainly start within the Church, and maybe we are already starting to see a bit of that. But the acusations and judgements made by many are very destructive and disruptive to the Church, so much care must be taken to listen for Holy Spirit`s direction here. I have seen good, faithful, honest christians driven almost to suicide over this sort of stuff. Man, this is dangerous stuff! In Timothy there is a method of dealing with this sort of thing and an order of procedure to follow in correcting error within the body......none of which this lady follows(evidently). Most of us on this site are saved, born again, children of God who know who they are, but what about baby christians in the body who are shaky but doing their best to find their way? What effect would this lady`s remarks have upon them? Jesus said it would be better that a millstone be hung around one`s neck and then be cast into the sea than to cause one of these little ones to fall. Pretty clear message and a certainly a penalty I don`t want. I guess what I am trying to say is this....Judgement is best left to the Lord, who is the only one who actually knows what is in a person`s heart. When you have to council with someone for months and months because they have suicidal thoughts from these accusations, it becomes very clear that most things such as this are not from God. Let me also say that I do not accuse or judge this lady in any manner, just saying that she would do well to re-evaluate her own life and reasons for doing these things. Dangerous, dangerous ground that she walks, or anyone walks who has a judgemental attitude toward other members of the body.

I couldn't have said that better myself, Charlie! The following link contains an excellent article from Peacemaker Ministires that I saw posted in another forum. It starts with the premise that judging is necessary but dangerous. Then it goes on to discuss the difference between critical judgments and charitable judgments, and how we must always use the latter with our brothers and sisters in Christ.

http://www.peacemake...6869591&notoc=1

[Candice]

Amen!!

[Kevin Blankenship]

I stand corrected. Here's what I did: I skimmed the first post. And then replied. Sorry about that. I should have had enough consideration to read it carefully (I have, since). Anyway, great replies. I'm not really experienced enough to add anything, but from what I have read (I didn't skim the replies....lol), I can offer a hail and hearty: AMEN!!!!!!!!

[Stephen]

Jesus tells a parable in Matthew 3:30 which I think teaches us how to think about and approach this sort of situation:

24 He put before them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and then went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well. 27 And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?’ 28 He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he replied, ‘No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along with them. 30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

[Lori Smith]

Amen Stephen, I like that.