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Praying for a DESIRE for holiness, righteousness, Deeper Life, .....the WILL


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#21 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:35 AM

Wow Jay, you have said a mouthful that really spoke to my heart. God once took me through a horrible wilderness experience to teach me how to hear Him. However, in the months prior to the election in America, I began to question what He was doing. Then I began reading more about the Reformers and the brutal ways they were treated. Many were slaughtered. Add to that all of the Christians in the world who are currently being martyred for the sake of Christ and I end up wondering how to process it all (I am not questioning His goodness, I'm just wondering how to think so it makes sense).

America was a success because persecuted Christians fled tyranny and established a government of equality (this was FAR different than Europe). However, the success partly hinged on joining forces with those who were influenced by the Enlightenment--godless people). But they both wanted freedom (19th century-Second Great Awakening), so America became a place of religious freedom (Unfortunately not for African slaves :( ).

This is no longer the case however. Now the new push is a return to the heavy governmental control. What puzzles me is that I believe God is bringing this to pass. I then think of the 1300 years of time when Rome brutally controlled the church and tortured those who didn't agree with them. There wasn't much real Christianity all those years. Now with America becoming more like Europe and all of the prophetic elements happening before our eyes, I wonder how to think about anything. Should we revisit prophecies to see what might be going on? I think many interpretations may be wrong.

God told me to focus on church and establishing a place there. Then I began to wonder if our problem all along has been the church's willingness to merge with government. Certainly it was a disaster for Christians under Rome. Plus if you look at persecuted countries, one sees a church that is thriving spiritually. Perhaps that is because it's pure.

Then I read your post, and it made me wonder if I'm thinking too much. Perhaps God is telling me through you to stop trying to figure it all out and simply trust Him. This would also answer the other question I have had regarding the seeming willingness of some Christians to embrace what I believe is clearly unscriptural. This has REALLY been upsetting me, and I have thought: "How can I fellowship with those who are embracing godless things?" Your answer above speaks to that.

The answer then becomes to trust God and to stop worrying about how others follow Him. Thanks for your post.

Blessings,
Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#22 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:30 AM

To all:

I need to add something because I need your input. I've tried to get past this, but I can't. Every time I open my Bible lately, I feel both the Lord's sweetness and His judgement. This is something totally new for me. Prior to the last few weeks, I only felt His sweetness. But I think He has removed His hand from the U.S. and now we are sensing His wrath.

If you read the Book of Revelation, you can see two pictures taking place side by side. On the one hand, seals are being opened (Revelation 6) and God is pouring out His wrath. But, there are also those who are His who are being martyred at the same time. Thus the saints are in the same place where the wrath is being poured out, but they go to heaven and ask God to avenge their deaths. God responds: "They were each given a white robe and told to rest a while longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed" (Rev 6:11).

Thus, the saints live in the midst of judgement, and God's purpose for allowing all of the troubles is two-fold. This understanding helps me make sense of things. Indeed, my feelings have been hurt whenever I open the Bible and feel God's judgement. It is a new thing for me. But, if I consider how God casts forth His righteous judgement, I'm able to see how His love and justice exist side by side.

I would really appreciate some input from others about this. Blessings ...

Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#23 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:39 AM

Lori, the scripture verse that has been giving me some agony will most CERTAINLY not help you n your situation. And perhaps even, we need a Sub-Forum titled: "What does THIS Scripture verse mean?" so that I would not feel compelled to put it in the Deeper Life forum. Not that I think YOUR above post belongs here.....because I feel that it does belong here. But the Verse that I am about to share is a semi-reply to your post and also a question. What, exactly, did Jesus mean when He said: " However, when I come back, will I find FAITH in the earth?" (Or ON the earth) That scripture makes me do one thing: "Make EVERY effort to make my calling and election sure." Surely the answer to Jesus's question wasn't "No, there will be no faith upon the earth when YOU return." Jesus's question makes me dig my heels in all the more!!!!
As for a more relevant reply to your question ( only a BIT more relevant), it's not difficult for me to see the U.S. as the Laodocean (sp?)Church and that we (The church in America) has given itself over to worldly ways. Even in Tozer's time, he warrned about it. How it was becoming all about NUMBERS!!! Filling the pews at all costs!!! Music in the church that sounds identical to what plays on secular radio. Advertising practices. The extreme FOCUS on monetary and material gain!!! The craving for entertainment and the satisfying of that craving by popular "Funny and comedic" preachers who always draw 'standing room only' crowds. People with itching ears gathering around them preachers and teachers who will gladly scratch those carnal ears. It would seem that gates of hell IS prevailing against the church. BUt Jesus said that the gates of hell would NOT prevail against the church!!!
Perhaps the present political situation and the persons who comprise it, are God's agents of judgement upon our country. Our majority certainly isn;'t the MORAL majority any longer. We have become a Godless nation. But one filled with the idols of enertainment and materialism. And more. Just my opinion.
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#24 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:19 AM

Kevin,

I think you are right on. My husband and I were just talking and came up with a similar answer. I think somehow I've joined what God has been telling me in my mind with the wrong church. He tells me to establish ground ... a secure place, and I assumed He meant this particular church. However, this church allows just enough worldliness to create a war in my heart. THAT has been my issue. I've been grossly confused. Thanks brother. You may also be right about moving this discussion to another forum. I didn't even think of that! Sorry!

Blessings,
Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#25 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:39 AM

I didn't really mean YOUR discussion. It is MY posts which were questionable. Especially when I interject a question about a scripture into a thread which is about something else. So far...I have seen your posts be right along with the flow of discussion. But ...I do see a need for a new sub-forum where one can ask questions about "What does this scripture mean?". That's what I meant. Your doing JUST fine and I enjoy your posts along with all the others. Trust me..this forum has been the best thing to happen to me in a long time!!!
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#26 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 09:51 AM

Kevin,

I find your posts a breath of fresh air; they are helping my husband and I make some tough decisions. Your sub-topic idea is a good one too. :)

Blessings,
Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#27 Jay Turner

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

Lori,

In many ways, I understand what you are going through. I went through a similar time where God started opening my eyes to different things and I had many of the same doubts as you do now. I believe that God takes us through times of questioning like this to prepare us so that He can use us to help bring about change. I don’t believe that even in times of questioning, like what you are going through, that He wants us to be overwhelmed. That can happen when our focus is set too wide. That is probably why God is telling you to set your focus on one thing and concentrate your efforts in that one place. He cannot use us while we are running around all frantic and the likes. As we settle down and begin to seek Him, He will start focusing us in on specific targets, asking us to step out in faith in different areas. As we start getting into position, much of our time will be in preparing for the shot. We must be still and wait for our target to get into position and that is where we must wait on God’s timing and not ours. As we seek Him and let the Spirit guide us, God will show us the perfect time and place.

One thing that you will notice while letting the Spirit guide you and walking by faith, is that quite often we don’t see the results that we are expecting. One thing we need to keep in mind is that in wartime, it is the cumulative results of the many that bring about the victory. It may not be our place to take the kill-shot, but instead to help set up the right circumstances to bring about change by driving the target in a certain direction. That is why we shouldn’t rely on our own understanding, but simply walk in obedience, trusting that God will guide us in the right direction and trust that in His timing, God will bring it to conclusion.

I almost regret that this post is taking on so much of a flavor of hunting and wartime. There definitely is that aspect that we are in a spiritual war and we always need to keep that in mind. But in reality, God’s focus is more in line with bringing about change and healing, whenever possible. Think about Joseph, when God used him to test his brothers to see whether they had changed or not. It was within Joseph’s power to exact revenge and have his brothers killed outright, but instead he let God use him to bring about repentance, forgiveness and healing. And just think of all that came about because of Joseph’s willingness to be used by God.

My suggestion would be to take a step back from all the chaos and focus on taking one step at a time. You may need to remove distractions, but as you set your focus on God, He will guide your steps, showing you how to walk this out.

Remember that ultimately this is God’s battle not ours. We have our roles to play, but ultimately He is the one who will bring about the victory. We don’t need to burden ourselves with what appears to be the outcomes. As long as we play the part that we are directed to play, God will take care of the rest.

Jay
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#28 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:47 AM

Wise words Jay. Thank you so much.

Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#29 Candice

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:51 PM

God’s plan was always that we should have a personal relationship with Him where He could speak to us, lead us, guide us and teach us through His Spirit. We are the ones who reject Him by letting man take the place that He reserved for Himself. I believe that that is one of the big reasons why God will quite often lead His people out into the wilderness, so that He can remove the things that distract us and take our eyes off of Him, so that He can become our guiding star. Once that level of relationship is established, then He can place us wherever He needs us, knowing that He can trust us to follow through with His plan.

Excellent and so truthful. AMEN!
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#30 Candice

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:16 PM

Thus, the saints live in the midst of judgement, and God's purpose for allowing all of the troubles is two-fold. This understanding helps me make sense of things. Indeed, my feelings have been hurt whenever I open the Bible and feel God's judgement. It is a new thing for me. But, if I consider how God casts forth His righteous judgement, I'm able to see how His love and justice exist side by side.


Hi Lori,
I read your reply a couple of times and consider this great for you to be seeing both aspects of GOD's character which is mercy and grace as well as righteous and just. I think of this saying by JESUS ( Matthew 5:45): "...He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous"
Read before and after this verse to get the full contextual understanding.

America, as well as any other nation before it, fell into sin (rather quickly I believe). But, HE blessed everyone despite this fact. Now, we, as unbelievers were blessed along with us, it is almost reversed. We will get the tsunami because of the earthquake just like everyone else. HOWEVER, that persecution, as you mentioned in another reply here, is what will bring about renewal in the church. I BELIEVE IT ABSOLUTELY WILL. Not all will be changed, but our response will bring others to CHRIST. For sure!

Also, a good source (I like to listen/read like-minded input) is a sermon I listened to yesterday. It was just what I happened to select even after going to church. I was led to go to TimesSquareChurch.com. Listened/watched Carter Conlon's sermon, "Religion in the Inner Court" from Nov. 4th. http://www.tscnyc.or...?pg=sermons#top
Even my husband watched and said," I hope he's preaching when we visit in December!. " That was amazing since he isn't too interested in this or the LORD hasn't really shown him this for whatever reason. No judgement there though.

To sum it up, I believe the LORD is speaking and some are preaching this truth. Our time is come now, as it was for those just after Christ's resurrection. Why should we be spared. Can we not wait for one hour watching for our SAVIOR? These lyric come from a Natalie Grant song (cannot listen to this song without crying to the LORD), not about persecution per se, but it is still relevant to our suffering for Christ...:

Two months is too little.
They let him go.
They had no sudden healing.
To think that providence would
Take a child from his mother while she prays
Is appalling.

Who told us we’d be rescued?
What has changed and why should we be saved from nightmares?
We’re asking why this happens
To us who have died to live?
It’s unfair.



This is what it means to be held.
How it feels when the sacred is torn from your life
And you survive.
This is what it is to be loved.
And to know that the promise was
When everything fell we’d be held.


This hand is bitterness.
We want to taste it, let the hatred NUMB our sorrow.
The wise hands opens slowly to lilies of the valley and tomorrow.


This is what it means to be held.
How it feels when the sacred is torn from your life
And you survive.
This is what it is to be loved.
And to know that the promise was
When everything fell we’d be held.


If hope is born of suffering.
If this is only the beginning.
Can we not wait for one hour watching for our Savior?



This is what it means to be held.
How it feels when the sacred is torn from your life
And you survive.
This is what it is to be loved.
And to know that the promise was
When everything fell we’d be held.
This is what it is to be loved.
And to know, that the promise was when everything fell, we'd be held.


Peace Sister,
Candice

#31 Lori Smith

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:41 PM

Wow, that's awesome.

Shalom,
Lori
In The Pursuit of God, A. W. Tozer writes, "Jesus taught that He wrought His works by always keeping His inward eyes upon His Father. His power lay in His continuous look at God (John 5:19-21)."

#32 Joan Phillips

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:20 AM

I've enjoyed this conversation and had a similar one with a coworker just before reading this. I can think of a lot to say and a bunch of Scriptures with which to say it. We all struggle daily with a sin nature and the ego's rampant desire to control the flesh. For me, it is a matter of daily going before the throne to surrender all, renounce the spirits of ego, pride, envy, bitterness, and resentment and to let my Abba Father know I long to be holy even as He is holy. Then the voice of Jesus speaks to me: Deny self and follow Me; I am your Defense.
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#33 Charles Miles

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:39 AM

Jay has said so much that is really on the spot. There is not really much more to be said. When one realizes that the whole bible is about God`s plan to re-establish a relationship with man, the whole book becomes a facinating study of our Father and Lord that shows His lovingkindness, patience, grace, and attributes that are not even understandable. When I finally understood that the object is not to stuggle to do good deeds, not to do "church" things, not to simply be the best you can....but to establish and live daily in a relationship with the Father, I experienced a freedom that one can`t discribe. We fail, we sin, we struggle, we fail again, but once in that precious relationship, we need to understand that we HAVE WON! Praise be to the Father for His seeking me and finding me where I was and where I am. I love Him with all my heart and soul, but the important thing is and always will be that He loves me and ALWAYS HAS since time began.

The understanding and maturity seen on this forum with all these posts from God`s children is uplifing and precious.

Charlie
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#34 Kevin Blankenship

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

That was a good post to read this morning. It brings it all into perspective. All the replies have been helpful to me but I also hope that there are readers...lurkers...out there who are reading our dialogue and I pray that there be a strong tug upon their heart by the Holy Spirit to give up trying to live life in their own power. and surrender their life to a loving Father and a Son who TOTALLY understands the frustrations of being human.
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