9 replies to this topic

[Travis G.]

Just yesterday in a bible class at my C&MA church the topic of Universal reconciliation came up and we spent the rest of the time discussing it. For those of you not familiar with this ideology it's the idea that "one day" sometime after the second coming of Christ that God will redeem all people to Himself and save them from Hell. This idea claims that Jesus Christ is the only way but who won't confess Jesus is Lord? Even the worst of unbelievers won't have a choice but to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Universal Reconciliation doesn't deny the existence of hell or that people won't be punished there for their sin's and unbelief in Jesus but it puts a end to it that there will come a time when it ends and those in hell will be forgiven and saved by Jesus' sacrifice which is for all people and is enough to cover everyone. I'm not an expert on this topic and if there's anything I got wrong please correct me.

Again several weeks ago a lady approached me in my C&MA after service to express her concerns that our local church was homophobic and to anti gay. It was her belief that "we're all God's children" and that He makes us all different but loves us all the same. She believe people are born homosexual and it wasn't a sin. All I could say that it's not our intent at the church to make anyone feel unwelcome and if we did we're sorry and would like to talk with the person but as a church we hold that actively embracing homosexuality is sin in the same way that any sex outside of a marriage of one man and one woman is sin. What's probably the most surprising is that this woman has been going to our church for 6 years and has held this belief the whole time with being challenged on it.

I'm finding there are so many beliefs that are contrary to the truth that the church was founded on that is the Word of God and they're swirling through our churches. Some of us might see these issues as black and white but many others do not. To me it's discouraging and scary because as we continue to see in the media whole denominations are falling under these appealing beliefs.

Feel free not only to respond to my two hot topics but to add any others that you've experienced.

[Laurie Collett]

Just yesterday in a bible class at my C&MA church the topic of Universal reconciliation came up and we spent the rest of the time discussing it. For those of you not familiar with this ideology it's the idea that "one day" sometime after the second coming of Christ that God will redeem all people to Himself and save them from Hell. This idea claims that Jesus Christ is the only way but who won't confess Jesus is Lord? Even the worst of unbelievers won't have a choice but to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Universal Reconciliation doesn't deny the existence of hell or that people won't be punished there for their sin's and unbelief in Jesus but it puts a end to it that there will come a time when it ends and those in hell will be forgiven and saved by Jesus' sacrifice which is for all people and is enough to cover everyone. I'm not an expert on this topic and if there's anything I got wrong please correct me.

Again several weeks ago a lady approached me in my C&MA after service to express her concerns that our local church was homophobic and to anti gay. It was her belief that "we're all God's children" and that He makes us all different but loves us all the same. She believe people are born homosexual and it wasn't a sin. All I could say that it's not our intent at the church to make anyone feel unwelcome and if we did we're sorry and would like to talk with the person but as a church we hold that actively embracing homosexuality is sin in the same way that any sex outside of a marriage of one man and one woman is sin. What's probably the most surprising is that this woman has been going to our church for 6 years and has held this belief the whole time with being challenged on it.

I'm finding there are so many beliefs that are contrary to the truth that the church was founded on that is the Word of God and they're swirling through our churches. Some of us might see these issues as black and white but many others do not. To me it's discouraging and scary because as we continue to see in the media whole denominations are falling under these appealing beliefs.

Feel free not only to respond to my two hot topics but to add any others that you've experienced.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post. I believe that God loves everyone infinitely -- and hence equally, but that as a holy, just God, He hates sin. Each of us is a sinner and equally deserving of hell, but only those who have repented and put their trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Son of God and perfect sacrifice for our sins, will go to Heaven instead. His substitutionary death on the cross paid the price for all our sins, so when God looks at a believer, He sees not our sins, but the perfect righteousness of His Son.

I believe that we should try to follow God's example and love the sinner, but hate the sin. It is not our place to judge or condemn, but it is our place that we will speak the truth in love, defend God's Word, and stand up for what is right. There are many false teachers and false doctrines in many of today's churches.

It is true that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, but the Bible clearly teaches that for those who have not put their trust in Him during their lifetime, it is too late, and they are condemned to eternal punishment in hell.

Laurie Collett, Saved by Grace
http://savedbygraceb...y.blogspot.com/

[Joel Stoddert]

Again several weeks ago a lady approached me in my C&MA after service to express her concerns that our local church was homophobic and to anti gay. It was her belief that "we're all God's children" and that He makes us all different but loves us all the same. She believe people are born homosexual and it wasn't a sin. All I could say that it's not our intent at the church to make anyone feel unwelcome and if we did we're sorry and would like to talk with the person but as a church we hold that actively embracing homosexuality is sin in the same way that any sex outside of a marriage of one man and one woman is sin. What's probably the most surprising is that this woman has been going to our church for 6 years and has held this belief the whole time with being challenged on it.

Travis, I think your response to this woman was right on, well said. Wise counsel from an older Christian friend & former pastor years ago has helped me to, as the saying goes, love the sinner but hate the sin. I spoke with him about a couple close to me whose lifestyle I didn't agree with. He knew them, and realized they didn't know the Lord. Dick commented, "It's nice when non-Christians act like believers, but can we really expect them to?" I've never forgotten that, and shared it with numerous fellow believers over the years who have found they're, for example, mad at our secular culture for being less God-honoring than it once was. Seeing that anger, many non-Christians label us unloving, anti-this or that and dismiss us as angry people who don't like them much, or even hate them. Your answer to this person showed sensitivity, yet you spoke the truth.

[Chris McKinster]

I agree with all that was said but I do think at times we forget to point people to scripture and let God's word speak for itself in love of course. It will be up to them whether or not they accept it as truth.

[Joel Stoddert]

I agree with all that was said but I do think at times we forget to point people to scripture and let God's word speak for itself in love of course. It will be up to them whether or not they accept it as truth.

That's true, Chris. As believers, the Bible says we're amabassadors, representing Another. Yet sometimes we come across as insisting on our own way, speaking for ourselves.

[Pastor Robert Young]

I want to spend a little time in this subject and if there is enough interest I will begin a new thread line and go deeper into the terminology, But let me begin by saying the mistake that many evangelical churches make when approaching these two subjects is in giving them a level of possibility. When we do that it gains equal status and is simply one point of view against another. This is a grave error and allows the believer to choose sides without retribution. In the case of universal reconciliation it should be approached from the point of heresy not possibility, and in the case of homosexuality it needs to be approached as perversion not an alternate life choice. Neither of these determinations is an attack against the person but rather the sin. Jesus loved the sinner and died for the sinner, but hated the sin, so much so that while on the cross when all our sin was laid on Him God turned away from Him and Jesus cried out "My God" "my God" "why hast thou forsaken me". Now then in approaching the heresy of universal reconciliation I will point out that their contention is that words like olam and aidos and ionios all have limited application and were not intended to be understood as never ending and that at some point when God has determined the punishment has been long enough then He will quench the fires of hell and all will bask in the sunlight of His love. I will mention only two things here concerning this; 1. If this were so then from the beginning of time there would be examples of those who reached that limit and would have been set free. Other wise a person in hell since the days of Adam would suffer longer than those of the 21st century and that would make God's love unequal. 2. If it is true that these terms translated eternal, forever, everlasting; are indeed limited within time and application then we must apply this definition equally to all things. Which would make eternal life limited and at some point God could say.."OK you have had enough heaven time to do something else". Or even worse, the times the same term is applied to God Himself would now under the new definition mean that He is limited by time and now the eternal power of God is limited and the eternal Godhead is limited. You can not create a definition and then only apply it where it fits your theology. alright...smiles... take a breath... The second situation is that of homosexuality. This is simply a perversion of how God intended sex to be applied. God did not create Adam and Ernie, nor Alice and Eve. He created a man and a woman and infact created the woman out of the man and gave them life. One of the biggest mistakes we make concerning sex is that it is viewed as the ultimate expression of Love...come on..you know that is how you see it...smiles... but scripture is clear that sex is the ultimate expression of marriage and marriage is expressed between a man and a woman, anything else is a perversion of God's intention. I think Romans 1 deals with that rather vividly. There are 3 levels of sexual sin presented in scripture; Pornia, Moicheu?, Pathos, Epithymia, and Akatharsia. Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. I know this looks like 5 but they fall into 3 areas. 1. Sexual Perversion, 2. Adultery, and 3. Immorality. I hope this gives you a foundation with which to approach these subjects. There is a great deal more we can do in studying these terms and how they are applied but for now this should be a start. may the God of peace be with you all.

[Kenny]

approaching the heresy of universal reconciliation I will point out that their contention is that words like olam and aidos and ionios all have limited application and were not intended to be understood as never ending . . . If it is true that these terms translated eternal, forever, everlasting; are indeed limited within time and application then we must apply this definition equally to all things. Which would make eternal life limited

Exactly Pastor Young, therefore when addressing the teaching of universalists, I take them to Matt 25:46 which says; "And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

In both instances the Greek word aionios is translated into our English word eternal which is defined by Strongs as, "without beginning and end - without end, never to cease"

Now if we limit the duration of the eternal punishment, then we would in turn also have to limit the duration of eternal life. And that's not possible

[Gordy]

is this like--The fatherhood of God, and the brotherhood of man?

[Kenny]

Just yesterday in a bible class at my C&MA church the topic of Universal reconciliation came up and we spent the rest of the time discussing it. For those of you not familiar with this ideology it's the idea that "one day" sometime after the second coming of Christ that God will redeem all people to Himself and save them from Hell. This idea claims that Jesus Christ is the only way but who won't confess Jesus is Lord? Even the worst of unbelievers won't have a choice but to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. Universal Reconciliation doesn't deny the existence of hell or that people won't be punished there for their sin's and unbelief in Jesus but it puts a end to it that there will come a time when it ends and those in hell will be forgiven and saved by Jesus' sacrifice which is for all people and is enough to cover everyone. I'm not an expert on this topic and if there's anything I got wrong please correct me.

Again several weeks ago a lady approached me in my C&MA after service to express her concerns that our local church was homophobic and to anti gay. It was her belief that "we're all God's children" and that He makes us all different but loves us all the same. She believe people are born homosexual and it wasn't a sin. All I could say that it's not our intent at the church to make anyone feel unwelcome and if we did we're sorry and would like to talk with the person but as a church we hold that actively embracing homosexuality is sin in the same way that any sex outside of a marriage of one man and one woman is sin. What's probably the most surprising is that this woman has been going to our church for 6 years and has held this belief the whole time with being challenged on it.

I'm finding there are so many beliefs that are contrary to the truth that the church was founded on that is the Word of God and they're swirling through our churches. Some of us might see these issues as black and white but many others do not. To me it's discouraging and scary because as we continue to see in the media whole denominations are falling under these appealing beliefs.

Feel free not only to respond to my two hot topics but to add any others that you've experienced.

 

Hello Travis

 

Please allow me to cast in my two cents and use Scripture to support my answers

 

Your first question is concerning the topic of universalism and is easily disputed with the following Scripture

 

Matthew 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: ^25:42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;  ^25:43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. ^25:44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? ^25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. ^25:46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

 

Take a look at verse 46

 

In that verse we have the same Greek word aionios used for "eternal" when describing the duration of the punishment as well as the duration of the life which is said to be eternal

 

The definition of aionios is - without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

This basically indicates that the duration of the eternal punishment is the same as the duration of eternal life. They both are aionios - or without end

 

Your second topic concerns the topic of homosexuality. You said that there was a woman in Church who stated that homosexuality isn't a sin. 

 

If she is correct, which I don't believe she is then why does Scripture say; 

 

do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.1 Cor. 6:9-10 NASB

[nelsonr]

I agree with all. I think at time, we forget to point people to scripture and let God's word speak. It will be up to them whether or not they accept it as truth.