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#41 Jay Turner

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 11:06 AM

The Open View says that God does not know the future - that it is "open" to Him, as well as to humanity, and that He is relegated to responding to events intelligently, rather than that God superintends events to a foreordained conclusion.


A lot of what you say throughout your post, I agree with whole-heartedly. When it comes to what God does and doesn't know, there seems to be aspects of scripture that don't yet reconcile with our current understanding of God being an all knowing God. There are definite references of where God has given people prophecies of what He will do and what He plans to accomplish at different points in human history. Then there are prophecies that seem to be more choices that He is giving us. If we make one choice, He will take one corse of action, while if we make another choice, He will take another. One example of this is in the book of Jonah and how because the people of Nineveh repented, God decided not to destroy them. It is in references like this, where God portrays Himself as changing His mind, that tells me that our understanding of God is still too lacking to nail down who exactly He is and how He acts.

I brought up the possibility that the members of the Trinity may see time differently. One possibility is that God does know everything, but decided to lock a lot of the details away from not only us, but also the Son and the Holy Spirit. That would help explain references about how neither the day or the hour are known by any but the Father. It also helps to explain how the Holy Spirit seems to guide us according to the choices that we make, while working to bring our choices into alignment with the words of prophecy that God has given us.

When I look at each the different views, I can see how each one stems from important truths about Himself that God was trying to show humanity. I know that none of them have a totally accurate picture of how things truly are, but instead each can help us take a step further towards that understanding. The question that we should be asking isn't which theological standpoint is correct, but instead what He would have us learn from each of them and how to take those individual truths and piece them together to form a more accurate understanding of His truth.

#42 Dan Morrow

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:01 AM

God is omnipresent.. (any disagreement?)..

Physicists will tell you that time and space are too sides of the same coin (much like the trinity).

If physicists are right, then TIME IS SPACE. To be everywhere at that same time (omnipresent) means to be at every moment in the same place as well.

The implication is that God constantly see's (hears, smells, tastes and feels) all that happens at every physical location throughout all time. He "sees" all that happens all the time everywhere constantly (present tense).

As a result, since God is omnipresent in both time and space, He must therefore be all knowing, all powerfull (it's in the math) and unchangeable.

Conclusion: It is not a contradiction to understand that GOD can allow complete free will and yet have perfect knowlege of our decisions before we make them. The key to this is to understand that God has CHOOSEN to allow us our free will. He does manipulate the timeline to provide each of us clear decision points, but stops short of forcing us to choose to recognise (accept) Him as God, or to love Him.


(God invented physics!)
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#43 Jay Turner

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:05 AM

My understanding is that the whole idea of omniscience and omnipresence that we attribute to God is more based on Greek philosophy than it is on Biblical truth. Historical Jews didn't see God as being outside of time, but instead saw that He was an active presence in the timeline who could change His mind and be moved by His creation.

There are aspects of God and scriptural truths that have not yet been reconciled, but that doesn't mean that they can't be known. It simply means that we need to keep on searching and seeking God for His truth, and not assume that our understanding of things is a complete understanding. Throughout Scripture, there are references to how God has locked away certain aspects of truth and how it is the honor of kings to search out His hidden things.

God is omnipresent.. (any disagreement?)..


Well, I know that God is always with us and that there isn't a moment in our lives where He isn't there. I also know that every word spoken out of the mouth of God does not return to Him void. So when He says that something will happen, then we can know that it will happen, unless He changes His mind because of His love and the prayers of His children.

The Bible also tells us that He knew us from the beginning of time. As a father, even before my son was born I loved him and cherished him. I saw the possibility of what he could become even before laying eyes on him. I knew him because of the dream inside of me. Just because God knew us before the beginning of time doesn't necessarily mean that He knew our every choice before time began. He knows the way we will go because He knows our hearts and knowing someones heart is more real and more informative than knowing their every choice and action.
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#44 HmoobKuv

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 06:09 PM

Annoyingly enough... I listened to both a Calvinist and Arminian teach John 3:16. I heard no differences. Which makes me wonder why we have these terms Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are Christian. People will stop debating if they did studies on both of them.

Example the Calvinist preach if you belong to God, you would obey Him (Arminianism); this after they teach people they were chosen by God and cannot resist Him. **Please note that both side teach both these positions but just with a different emphasis.

I've done a lot of reading about both positions of Calvinism and Arminianism. I went through the canons of Dort and did not say yes to all the five points of Calvinism but I didn't say no to all of them either. So in conclusion, I'm not all Calvinist or Arminian. I will call my position "(Arminian+Calvinism)^0". That God is so sovereign, He can choose to come die (even though He is eternal), He can choose to not remember our transgressions (even though He knows all), He can choose to give us freewill that allows us to sin(even though He Himself could not sin).

I will say one thing, I don't like the debates on this issue. Of the three debates I studied, both sides misquoted scripture out of context; I looked up many verses and I am disappointed; don't make scripture say what you want just to make your position right! Or to imply X to the entire Kingdom of God when clearly, each verse in the Bible has a scope and context it is written/intended for. With all the commentary and resources we have today, how do we still pull the verses out of context? IE John 17:9 (quoted out of context by Calvinist) IE Romans 8 (quoted out of context by Arminians); those are the verses I remember off the top of my head that were murdered in attempts to defend each position; unfortunately there's more verses that were hung by debaters.

Hey interesting fact: Abraham Lincoln struggled in the early 1800s when he was trying to grasp the Calvinistic teachings of his time. He wrote a book attacking the divinity of Christ, the veracity of the Bible, and the logicality of predestination. The title is called the "Little Book on Infidelity". *Note: It was burned when he handed it to a storekeepers wife to get it published, by her husband. Bummer for me.

Yea, biographies accuse that Lincoln belong to no church because he was troubled by the Calvinistic God and choose deism instead. Might make an interesting study one day. Let's not let that happen to you or me, or any of our brothers and sisters in Christ today, be open, embrace each others questions and ground ourselves in the Bible.

#45 Denes House

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:11 PM

A lot of what you say throughout your post, I agree with whole-heartedly. When it comes to what God does and doesn't know, there seems to be aspects of scripture that don't yet reconcile with our current understanding of God being an all knowing God. There are definite references of where God has given people prophecies of what He will do and what He plans to accomplish at different points in human history. Then there are prophecies that seem to be more choices that He is giving us. If we make one choice, He will take one corse of action, while if we make another choice, He will take another. One example of this is in the book of Jonah and how because the people of Nineveh repented, God decided not to destroy them. It is in references like this, where God portrays Himself as changing His mind, that tells me that our understanding of God is still too lacking to nail down who exactly He is and how He acts.


I think a simpler solution to the question of whether or not God "changes His mind" is found in Jeremiah, a kind of background promise that underlies all of God's declarations of blessing or destruction:

“If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.”




Given that there are many passages which state flat out that God doesn't change His mind, I think this is a Biblical way of understanding what DOES happen in those situations.

I brought up the possibility that the members of the Trinity may see time differently. One possibility is that God does know everything, but decided to lock a lot of the details away from not only us, but also the Son and the Holy Spirit. That would help explain references about how neither the day or the hour are known by any but the Father. It also helps to explain how the Holy Spirit seems to guide us according to the choices that we make, while working to bring our choices into alignment with the words of prophecy that God has given us.


Is this a possibility? Sure, as far as I can see there is no Scripture against the idea that the members of the Trinity voluntarily perceive time differently. But there's also nothing that I can recall in Scripture that suggests that this is the case, either. Making this - you guessed it! - entirely speculative.

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#46 Denes House

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:23 PM

My understanding is that the whole idea of omniscience and omnipresence that we attribute to God is more based on Greek philosophy than it is on Biblical truth. Historical Jews didn't see God as being outside of time, but instead saw that He was an active presence in the timeline who could change His mind and be moved by His creation.


I'll agree that the idea that God stands outside of time is not described in Scripture. It's an interpretation, designed to help make sense of Scripture. But God's omniscience and omnipresence clearly are.

In Jeremiah, God indignantly asks: ““Am I a God at hand, declares the LORD, and not a God far away?Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the LORD.” (Jeremiah 23:23–24 ESV) This truth is so evident that the Psalmist confidently declares: “Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, “Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night,” even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you.” (Psalms 139:7–12 ESV)


God declares His omniscience at many points in Scripture, but particularly in prophetic works, like Isaiah:"for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’” (Isaiah 46:9–10 ESV) The writer of Hebrews confidently declares that God sees everything, and therefore knows everything: “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” (Hebrews 4:13 NIV)

Well, I know that God is always with us and that there isn't a moment in our lives where He isn't there. I also know that every word spoken out of the mouth of God does not return to Him void. So when He says that something will happen, then we can know that it will happen, unless He changes His mind because of His love and the prayers of His children.

Amen - or in response to the repentance of those who are not yet His children.


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#47 Denes House

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 12:27 PM

Annoyingly enough... I listened to both a Calvinist and Arminian teach John 3:16. I heard no differences. Which makes me wonder why we have these terms Calvinism and Arminianism. Both are Christian. People will stop debating if they did studies on both of them.

With all due respect, there is a LOT that Calvinists and Arminians agree on - more in fact than they disagree about. So the fact that a Calvinist and an Arminian taught John 3:16 the same way really doesn't indicate that their disagreement on other matters is insignificant.

I'd also say that it's somewhat simplistic to say that if people would just study both Calvinism and Arminianism, they'd stop debating the issue. Clearly, that's not the case. This is a debate that has raged for over a thousand years, with earnest and faithful Christians searching the Scriptures for guidance. Obviously it's not so simple that everyone ought to agree, if they'd just look at the evidence. The evidence is not clear. I wish it were!


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#48 Jay Turner

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 01:19 PM

When I was talking about God's omniscience and omnipresence, it was in reference to Dan Morrow's post # 43 where he was equating it to God being able to see every one of our choices, past, present and future. I recognize through scripture that God knows and sees every choice and action that has happened in the past and in the present. He even knows our hearts and our thoughts. The point that I was trying to make was that we need to be careful not to jump to the conclusion that God saw every choice that each of us would make, even before the creation of the world.

You brought up Jeremiah 18.7-10. When I read that passage, the thing that I see is God reacting to our choices. If God had plans to bless a people, but they rebelled against Him, He would withhold His blessing. And if He had plans to destroy a nation, but they repented, He would withhold his judgment. It is in passages like this that bring into question our understanding of what it means for God to "know the end from the beginning".
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#49 HmoobKuv

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Posted 30 November 2010 - 02:35 PM

Agreed that both positions have key differences but many more agreements... so once again, that is very annoying to me. I just don't like Christians holding different names. I've read Luther, John Wesley and a few other theologians and they are pretty extreme with their positions. I had fun studying both sides and saw the Biblical case for both. That's why I'm accepting of both sides. Hence why I said people will stop debating if they did studies on both of them. Of course if you stretch the key verses of Calvinism to be a Universal Biblical Truth, you could take a Hyper-Calvinist position. Meaning interpret all parts of scripture through the lens of those key verses. But I couldn't comfortably do that, hence I'll have to embrace aspects of both views.

I did imply it was simplistic and not important to debate. But I guess that's just me. I'll keep in mind not to apply that to everyone.

#50 Robert Fugate

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 12:37 PM

Ruth Ann...I saw yourpost...it is a few days after Christmas and I have been able to slow down.



I have been in Chile for20 yrs. as a missionary so my theology is filtered through amulti-cultural context, but as many have pointed out,the scriptures are our guide and rule of faith. I grew up in anAlliance church, came to Christ at 13. As I used to do some streetevangelization at that early age and it did not take me too long to experience theirrational hate that many had to the gospel.




Wow, things have not changedall that much in Chile. I have had rocks thrown at me for trying to showthe Jesus film in outdoor plazas, our house was the neighborhood target forrocks for two years when the kids were all elementary school age. One of ourneighbors hated us for several years, no explanation, until the day God movedin her heart and she came under the conviction of sin, in a tear filled momentwith demonic protests, she came to Christ.



That dear women wasdemon possessed and needed liberating, I am sure that God put us nextdoor to her house to help, I am also convinced that what started the chainreaction to her coming to Christ was the Holy Spirit who moved us to pray forher for two days. None the less, I am convinced that the scriptures teach that sheneeded to choose, in the moment that God had brought her to the place where shehad the freedom from demonic power to choose, to choose the love ofGod....or the power of the enemy, she choose freedom, praise the Lord!



The problem is that no matter how many wayswe try to condition predestination, one cannot avoid the

inescapable conclusionthat if God predestines some to eternal life, then he predestines others toeternal damnation. This is indeed inconsistent with scripture. God does not will for any to perish.



This fundamental flawin predestination becomes obvious when one reduces the argument to its mostbasic precepts.



I think part of theproblem arises from the confusion of divine foreknowledge, omniscience, with thesovereignty of God. I see no biblical contradiction in free will (as long as we understand that it is granted by God) and the sovereignty of God.



Our best to the churchfamily,



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#51 RuthAnn Nicholls

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 07:50 PM

Ruth Ann...I saw yourpost...it is a few days after Christmas and I have been able to slow down.



I have been in Chile for20 yrs. as a missionary so my theology is filtered through amulti-cultural context, but as many have pointed out,the scriptures are our guide and rule of faith. I grew up in anAlliance church, came to Christ at 13. As I used to do some streetevangelization at that early age and it did not take me too long to experience theirrational hate that many had to the gospel.



Wow, things have not changedall that much in Chile. I have had rocks thrown at me for trying to showthe Jesus film in outdoor plazas, our house was the neighborhood target forrocks for two years when the kids were all elementary school age. One of ourneighbors hated us for several years, no explanation, until the day God movedin her heart and she came under the conviction of sin, in a tear filled momentwith demonic protests, she came to Christ.



That dear women wasdemon possessed and needed liberating, I am sure that God put us nextdoor to her house to help, I am also convinced that what started the chainreaction to her coming to Christ was the Holy Spirit who moved us to pray forher for two days. None the less, I am convinced that the scriptures teach that sheneeded to choose, in the moment that God had brought her to the place where shehad the freedom from demonic power to choose, to choose the love ofGod....or the power of the enemy, she choose freedom, praise the Lord!



The problem is that no matter how many wayswe try to condition predestination, one cannot avoid the

inescapable conclusionthat if God predestines some to eternal life, then he predestines others toeternal damnation. This is indeed inconsistent with scripture. God does not will for any to perish.



This fundamental flawin predestination becomes obvious when one reduces the argument to its mostbasic precepts.



I think part of theproblem arises from the confusion of divine foreknowledge, omniscience, with thesovereignty of God. I see no biblical contradiction in free will (as long as we understand that it is granted by God) and the sovereignty of God.



Our best to the churchfamily,



Under the Same Wings,


Thank you so much for your post! I remember your visit to our church! for our international week!

The Bible tells us the Gospel is offensive. But you really don't realize just how offensive until you do street evangelism.

As far as election, that is what I tend to believe as well, that God knows all, knew us before we were born, knew us and how we would deal with God's grace.

One thing that those who believe in predetermination also believe, is that God only calls those he will save. I had been given some verses for this and it sure sounded as though God only calls those whom he will be saving. But then I hinge it on the verse that states he elects whom he knows. (or something like that). Too tired to find the verse right now. But I think he knows who will decide to follow Jesus and those are the ones he saves and equips and so on. Hope I'm making some sense now.

It's so good to hear from you, Robert.
I will indeed tell my sisters and brothers that I heard from you here. Your experiences were interesting to read about. Isn't it amazing how the Lord uses us as he prepares hearts and he then saves.

I want to live my life so that every morning
when I wake up Satan says, "Oh, no! She's awake!


#52 Joel Stoddert

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:35 PM

Why do the world's so called best "theologians" and "relgious" people have to put you into one of two categories, Calvanism or Armenianism? Why can you just not be someone's Son or Daughter??? Should we not believe what Christ taught? Matthew 13:36-43. Plain and simple...


I hear what you're saying, Joe, but for many of us, using labels like Arminian and Calvinist isn't so much labeling as shorthand, like when people use liberal & conservative in describing their political views. I call myself a conservative not as a way of slamming liberals, but to describe my views in a word rather than a long explanation. Those who know that conservatism stands for smaller government, lower taxes, etc., then know where I stand--& I'm happy to explain what "conservative" means to those who don't already know. By the same token, I sometimes say I'm a Calvinist (I prefer Reformed), not because I idolize Calvin, who was just a man like you or me, but because those who know the basics of what he taught then have an idea where I stand theologically. You're right in saying some use labels for the wrong reasons, but many of us are just explaining our beliefs by mentioning better known people whose beliefs tend to agree with ours.

#53 Denes House

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 05:58 AM

The problem is that no matter how many ways we try to condition predestination, one cannot avoid theinescapable conclusion that if God predestines some to eternal life, then he predestines others to eternal damnation. This is indeed inconsistent with scripture. God does not will for any to perish.

This fundamental flaw in predestination becomes obvious when one reduces the argument to its most basic precepts.


Robert, I think this is for many Arminians one of our central problems with Calvinism. It is difficult for us to reconcile the Biblical truth that God does not will for any to perish, but that all might have eternal life, with the Calvinistic teaching that God specifically crafts some people for destruction. That's not my only issue with Calvinism, but it is a biggie - the only theological issue that literally kept me up all night long, praying with tears in my eyes. Well put.
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#54 Robert Fugate

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:07 PM

Robert, I think this is for many Arminians one of our central problems with Calvinism. It is difficult for us to reconcile the Biblical truth that God does not will for any to perish, but that all might have eternal life, with the Calvinistic teaching that God specifically crafts some people for destruction. That's not my only issue with Calvinism, but it is a biggie - the only theological issue that literally kept me up all night long, praying with tears in my eyes. Well put.


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#55 Robert Fugate

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:14 PM

Thanks Denes....I found out a while back that irresistible grace and unconditional election were never voiced among christians (that we know of) until the later years of Augustine, 417. , then it was hardly heard of until the reformers....I have been ministering in a religious culture in South America that exercises a practical denial of the sufficiency of scripture in the tendency to defer to views of the church fathers. It is our challenge to approach scripture on its own terms. I am not an arminian either...was while in seminary but then made my spiritual journey in those years and the first years in ministry. One of the things that helped me in those years was God´s many appeals 50 times to people to repent, believe, and to choose to seek God.

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#56 Joel Stoddert

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:36 PM

It is our challenge to approach scripture on its own terms.


Amen, Robert. This is why I see terms like Arminian and Calvinist are only partially adequate, since neither position totally explains biblical teaching--free will vs. election, e.g. How can we both choose to serve Christ and be chosen before the foundation of the world, as the Bible says? Even after 33 years of walking with Christ, I'm not sure how to reconcile those two seemingly opposite views, but the Bible says both are true. How? I don't know, exactly, but the Bible teaches God's omniscience, so He certainly knows. So unless and until the Lord fully reveals to me how free will and election work together, I'm content to leave it in His hands. We are dealing with the Lord of the universe, after all, so there will be issues our human intellects, puny in comparison to His, won't be able to fully grasp because He's God and we're not and we're trying to understand how He thinks.

#57 joe4jcnow

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 10:29 AM

Why is it that there seems to be something missing throughout all these comments regarding this discussion---And why do you think it is, that so many Christians today, don't understand who they really are??? Could it be, that it is because many Pastors who stand behind the pulpit, have gone to seminary, have spent most of their time studying mens opinions of the scriptures, but have not spent the time, to get on their faces and sought "The Living God" "Our Father" for the truth. Jesus said that The Holy Spirit would lead us and guide us into all truth.(John 16:13) He, The Holy Spirit is the greatest Teacher that could ever be, we need to allow Him to teach, to lead us into the truth...(and not take our messages out of someone's book of sermons) Jesus said in John 17:3,"This is eternal life, that we know you, the only true God......." How can you know someone if you will not take the time necessary to get to know them...God requires of us our time...The word "know" in this scripture means "to know intimately"... We are supposed to know our Father intimately... IJohn 3:1&2, "Behold(be aware of, perceive, understand) what manner of love "The Father" hath bestowed upon "us", that we {should}(not in the original translation) be called ("to name" the giving of attribution to someone or something)the "sons" of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew Him not. Beloved, "NOW" are "We" the "Sons" "of God", and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is." In John 17:26 Jesus said, "And I have declared(made plain)unto them(Believers vs 20, given to Him by The Father vs 24)thy name, and will declare(make plain):that the love wherewith you have loved Me be in them, and I in them." What was this name that Jesus is to make plain unto us, and what is this love,that the Father loved Him with, that according to Jesus is in us??? These two things are inseperable, Jesus is declaring, making plain to us that His name is "The Father" and He was loved with the love of "A Father"....How much plainer, easier to understand can He possibly make it?! We are "Sons and Daughters of The Most High God." God Himself told David in IChronicles 28:6, "Solomon your son, he shall build My house and My courts: for "I" have chosen him "to be My son", and "I" "will be" "his Father".... If you believe that God gave you the ability to make yourself a Son or Daughter of God, or that you have been given the ability or power to make God your Father, you haven't been fed the truth.


God is the only one who chooses His sons and daughters....Sons and daughters have never since the beginning of time been able to choose their father or their mother...Even Jesus Christ did not have this ability and He was the firstborn among many brethren...(Romans 8:29) This is what is known as an "Eternal Truth." Something that can never be changed regardless of whatever your opinion of it is, you cannot change, "the truth".

#58 Joel Stoddert

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:12 PM

Why is it that there seems to be something missing throughout all these comments regarding this discussion---And why do you think it is, that so many Christians today, don't understand who they really are??? Could it be, that it is because many Pastors who stand behind the pulpit, have gone to seminary, have spent most of their time studying mens opinions of the scriptures, but have not spent the time, to get on their faces and sought "The Living God" "Our Father" for the truth.


Joe, I'm not sure where this apparent dislike for, even hostility toward, trained pastors comes from. Good seminaries spend a lot more time teaching the Word than they do "men's opinions of the scriptures". Between classes studying different books of the Bible, biblical Hebrew & Greek, classes on Bible history; on how to preach & teach the Word effectively, classes on how to counsel in a biblical fashion, & the time students spend worshiping together & hearing the Bible preached at chapel & at church on Sundays, being involved in local church Bible studies and the like, they spend a lot of time in the Word. I doubt you dislike your doctor having been to med. school. your insurance agent for knowing a lot about insurance, or think your plumber's over-educated because he knows a plunger from a monkey wrench. Yet pastors are somehow more spiritual if they're less educated than the plumber, electrician & doctor. It puzzles me when we want people who take care of our health and homes to be experts in their fields, but not those the Lord asks to help us care for our souls and teach us His Word. When a pastor preaches & tells me, "The Bible says...", offers to counsel me, teaches a Bible study, etc., I want to have some assurance the guy knows what he's doing! And that, for most people, means studying for ministry.

#59 Jay Turner

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 07:59 PM

Joe, I'm not sure where this apparent dislike for, even hostility toward, trained pastors comes from. Good seminaries spend a lot more time teaching the Word than they do "men's opinions of the scriptures". Between classes studying different books of the Bible, biblical Hebrew & Greek, classes on Bible history; on how to preach & teach the Word effectively, classes on how to counsel in a biblical fashion, & the time students spend worshiping together & hearing the Bible preached at chapel & at church on Sundays, being involved in local church Bible studies and the like, they spend a lot of time in the Word. I doubt you dislike your doctor having been to med. school. your insurance agent for knowing a lot about insurance, or think your plumber's over-educated because he knows a plunger from a monkey wrench. Yet pastors are somehow more spiritual if they're less educated than the plumber, electrician & doctor. It puzzles me when we want people who take care of our health and homes to be experts in their fields, but not those the Lord asks to help us care for our souls and teach us His Word. When a pastor preaches & tells me, "The Bible says...", offers to counsel me, teaches a Bible study, etc., I want to have some assurance the guy knows what he's doing! And that, for most people, means studying for ministry.

When Jesus chose the 12, He didn't choose the smartest or the most educated. He chose the fishermen and the tax collectors. We suffer from a misconception that the education is the most important factor in whether someone is qualified for spiritual leadership. In God's economy, He doesn't care about our education, our talents and abilities or our background. He cares about what is in our hearts. If He can find someone who has a heart that seeks Him and is willing to go wherever He should lead, nothing else really matters. He can get the tools and resources into their hands and through His Spirit, He can teach them whatever they need to know in order to get whatever job He placed before them done.

In all actuality, the education can be more of a hindrance than a help. When we have the piece of paper, we tend to think that because we worked our butts off to get the degree, we are qualified to do the job. But when you think about it, the more time and effort that we put into our education, the more pride and self worth God has to break us from in order to get us to the place where we can truly recognize that it is all about His grace, not about what we have accomplished. That is why Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven.

Don't get me wrong. A good education can be a good thing. Quite often God will use our time in the university to get us to where he needs us to be, but be careful not to place too much emphasis on ones education, for doesn't the Bible tell us in 1 Corinthians 1.27 that "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong."

#60 Robert Fugate

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:18 PM

God is the only one who chooses His sons and daughters....Sons and daughters have never since the beginning of time been able to choose their father or their mother...Even Jesus Christ did not have this ability and He was the firstborn among many brethren...(Romans 8:29) This is what is known as an "Eternal Truth." Something that can never be changed regardless of whatever your opinion of it is, you cannot change, "the truth".


Joe thanks for yourpassionate plea for spiritually deep pulpits. I could not be more in agreement that weare chosen by God, and created by God, to be his children. Theproblem is that some choose not to be his children. The Passover is ananalogy to the cross of Christ. The blood of the slain lamb had noefficacy unless and until it was applied to the doorpost of the Jewishdwelling. The blood of the Lamb of God...is applied by faith to thedoorposts of our hearts. ¨Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sinof the world!¨ John 1:29




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Robert Fugate  - Pastor SouthPointe Project
Christian and Missionary Alliance - Mexico Field
fugate@cmamexico.net